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E.E.N.S
Guest
If the material provided along with 2000 years of Church history doesn’t help you to understand, then I do not know what will…
“…some have ears but do not hear…”
“…some have ears but do not hear…”
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Golf_Nut
Guest
Thank you for your detailed explanation. This is very persuasive, that praying to Saints is not contrary to the Commandment. But, I think the praying should be framed such that we pray to the Saint that they send on our prayer to God. We do not pray to the Saint to directly help us.
As for my denomination, I was born into a catholic family, baptised one, and married (annuled), divorced, married again in the Church. For me to be a catholic involves agreeing with its teachings. I agree with some but not all. I have a lot to think about. But prior to reading your comments, I was not convinced that praying to Mary was acceptable. Now, I will reconsider my position. But, as I said before, Mary and the saints are, arguably conveyers of a person’s prayer to God, but they are not an end in themselves. I still have an issue with praying to images of Mary and the Saints.
Again thanks for your comments. You are clearly a theologian.
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FCEGM
Guest
G-N, the discussion on the Divine Mercy image should be of interest to you, then - and hopefully helpful.
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Mickey
Guest
You are absolutely correct here golf_nut! The Church never teaches that Mary and the Saints are and end in themselves. And if any Catholic or Orthodox believes that, then they are in serious error.
Perhaps I could clarify this for you. As a Byzantine Catholic, our Churches have icons instead of statues. These images are merely reminders for us. Icons are like windows into the heavenly realm. If I am praying before an icon of Jesus, I am not praying to the icon–I am remembering Jesus and all that he did for the salvation of humanity. Of course we don’t need icons and statues. But they do help me sometimes. For example, if I have a bad day at work, I am driving home with the problems of the day swirling in my head. I see the small icon of Jesus on my dashboard and I remember that my worldly problems are trivial–so I begin to pray for the remainder of my commute. It is not unlike looking at a picture of my deceased father. I was so young when he passed away, that I do not remember him. But I look at his photo, and I remember the stories of his life relayed to me by my mother. And it helps me. I hope this all makes some sense to you Golf_nut.
God bless you,
Mickey
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Golf_Nut
Guest
Mickey said:
I think you take personal offense to debate. If this “forum” is merely devoted to a “preaching to the converted” then I will refrain from further postings. If, on the other hand, this forum is committed to sincere debate on this and other topics, then i will continue to participate. Just let me know, the ground rules.
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cheddarsox
Guest
Church Militant said:“Some people” dishonor the Bible by placing it first in their heart, devotion and worship, a place the Word of God itself would refuse. It points to Christ, but some do not heed its counsel. Instead they treat The Bible as if it were divine.
It is not my intent to dishonor the Bible, but rather to address improper devotions toward it.
Perhaps you see now how Catholics sometimes feel about your beliefs?
I don’t know where this is coming from?
The point is that if you stick to the actual teachings of the church, then you have something to discuss…but if you allege, (as you have) that we make Mary a goddess (which in fact we do not, that is something that you have been mistaught.) then you begin your whole discussion from an error and unless you listen to what we are telling you that we really believe (regardless of what you have heard, or even perhaps some errant Catholic may have said or done) you will never get this answered to your satisfaction. Holding us responsible for one person’s error is like saying that because one Catholic murders someone, that the church teaches that that is okay. Not so in either case.
**I have stated several times on this thread that I know the church does not teach Mary worship, and that I am not addressing the proper devotion to Mary as taught by the church.
I was addressing specific instances of superstitious and over the top worship of Mary which unfortunately occurs.
I am not holding the church accountable for everything any member does. But I think that this is a valid concern, and I was unable to have it addressed when I was a Catholic.
I have also said, more than once, that it is possible that what I experienced was a local situation only, or that I was suffering a delusion.
But apparently it is more fun to jump on me than to read my posts and respond to the concerns I brought up.
I have not tried to tear down the church, Mary or faithful people devoted to Mary. I have sought peace and understanding over an issue which I find troublesome.
**
Get the cheese outta your sox.
Pax tecum,
M
Mickey
Guest
cheddarsox said:
Although I have not experienced the type of Marian worship that you describe, I have no doubt that it exists in some form–in some places. Sadly, the Church is not perfect, and sinners will always be found within it’s walls as we wait for Christ to perfect and purify the world.
Peace and blessings to you cheddarsox,
Mickey
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Exactly! Even devotion to Mary (or any paricular saint) is not and end to itself, Jesus is the final end to all true devotion.
We don’t pray* TO* those images, they are there to lift our minds and hearts to things of heaven.
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
How does 1 Tim 2:5 reinforce you views? Jesus being both God and man is the only one in the unique position to mediate between God and man. Could you please elaborate on your point?
Thanks!
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
You seem to be under the common misconception that the word “pray” has only one meaning. The meaning you are thinking of is this:
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
This kind of prayer, of course, should be directed to God, not the Saints or Mary (who is a Saint), and it isn’t…ever. What you may not know is that, in English, the word “pray” has another, DIFFERENT meaning as well:
*1 : to make a request in a humble manner *
In this case it’s a prayer request. This is the “prayer” that is directed at those alive with Christ in heaven. This is not the type of prayer that one would direct at God because one would not ask God to pray FOR him. The kind of prayer that would be directed at God is entirely different:
2 : to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
Same word, different meaning. In English that’s called a homonym:
c : one of two or more words spelled and pronounced alike but different in meaning
When you use the #2 definition as though it were the ONLY definition you end up misrepresenting Catholic teaching on prayer. That’s exactly what’s happening here.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
I think you’re VERY close to understanding the Catholic position on this!!! :dancing:
The issues that you say you have really aren’t issues at all but rather a couple of residual misunderstandings:
THIS, exactly as you’ve stated here, is Catholic teaching!!
This is a misunderstanding. No one prays TO a statue. When someone kneels in front of a statue in prayer he is no more praying TO the statue than a person kneeling in prayer with a bible in praying TO the bible.
The person is praying TO the person the statue represents who, in turn, prays to God on behalf of that person. And, by they way, it’s not a requirement.
In Christ,
Nancy
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Church_Militant
Guest
Point taken Cheddar.
Didn’t mean to offend you. Sorry.
I understand where you are comin’ from I think, and that is one reason that I am such a “freak” about learning all I can about my faith.
In fact it was this very study and research (on this very topic no less!) that led me home to the Catholic Church after over 30 years away.
One of my problems is that it doesn’t seem to matter how many times Catholics point out that even if this error exists in some place or among some people, that it is not Catholic teaching, it seems like no one is listening, and the arguments/attacks recurr.
In a society that seems bent on finding as much as possible to “nail” us Catholics for, while Bible-waving preachers and their followers work to proselytize us into their churches, I sometimes find it hard to understand why these people don’t do as I did and look into it for themselves and make up their own minds based on the facts.
I guess that’s just part of what comes with the apologetics turf… That and this particular allegation.
Pax tecum,
Didn’t mean to offend you. Sorry.
I understand where you are comin’ from I think, and that is one reason that I am such a “freak” about learning all I can about my faith.
In fact it was this very study and research (on this very topic no less!) that led me home to the Catholic Church after over 30 years away.
One of my problems is that it doesn’t seem to matter how many times Catholics point out that even if this error exists in some place or among some people, that it is not Catholic teaching, it seems like no one is listening, and the arguments/attacks recurr.
In a society that seems bent on finding as much as possible to “nail” us Catholics for, while Bible-waving preachers and their followers work to proselytize us into their churches, I sometimes find it hard to understand why these people don’t do as I did and look into it for themselves and make up their own minds based on the facts.
I guess that’s just part of what comes with the apologetics turf… That and this particular allegation.
Pax tecum,
C
Catholic4aReasn
Guest
I think that those who continue to believe the misconceptions find safety in it. It’s must safer to believe that the Church worships Mary and prays to statues than to even begin to entertain the idea that perhaps the Catholic Church IS the Church founded by Christ. That could spell disaster for so many.
Most people who hold these misconceptions were told them by people they trusted who were told them by people they trusted and on down the line through the years. They’d have no reason to believe that these people whom they trust could be mistaken, especially because they are SO convinced that they are right about the Church. I think in some cases it simply doesn’t occur to them that they could be wrong or if it does, it’s simply not possible because they trust the source of the information.
I’m heartened by the many stories I hear of people who grew up being fed the lies and finally, through their own research, come to find the truth about what the Church teaches. They are understandabley devisated and angry at being so terribley mislead but are so completely thrilled and overjoyed to finally be home.
Just my thoughts…
In Christ,
Nancy
Most people who hold these misconceptions were told them by people they trusted who were told them by people they trusted and on down the line through the years. They’d have no reason to believe that these people whom they trust could be mistaken, especially because they are SO convinced that they are right about the Church. I think in some cases it simply doesn’t occur to them that they could be wrong or if it does, it’s simply not possible because they trust the source of the information.
I’m heartened by the many stories I hear of people who grew up being fed the lies and finally, through their own research, come to find the truth about what the Church teaches. They are understandabley devisated and angry at being so terribley mislead but are so completely thrilled and overjoyed to finally be home.
Just my thoughts…
In Christ,
Nancy
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cheddarsox
Guest
Church Militant:
I got the same reaction when I WAS Catholic. This, and other issues that no one would address, are part of what led me away from the church.And I came to CAF 9 months ago hoping to reopen some of the issues and see if I could come to peace.
But mostly people tell me I don’t know what I am talking about and that I have an agenda to hurt the church.
My agenda was to reexamine the Catholic faith. I appreciate all the help I have received. I feel much clearer about many things now.
cheddar
I understand where you are coming from as well. Whenever I try to address corrupt Marian devotion (and we know that unfortunately it does take place, no fault of the church teachings) I get a bunch of angry, patronizing Catholics telling me I don’t know what I am talking about, and that I should repeat after them 10 times that no such thing takes place, and that I am anti-Catholic and a hater of Mary and the faith!
I got the same reaction when I WAS Catholic. This, and other issues that no one would address, are part of what led me away from the church.And I came to CAF 9 months ago hoping to reopen some of the issues and see if I could come to peace.
But mostly people tell me I don’t know what I am talking about and that I have an agenda to hurt the church.
My agenda was to reexamine the Catholic faith. I appreciate all the help I have received. I feel much clearer about many things now.
cheddar
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Mickey
Guest
Now that you realize that you were tragically influenced by those who did not understand the true faith–we would love to welcome you back with open arms!
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_1_218.gif
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Catholic4aReasn
Guest
Hi cheddar!
I must have misunderstood your position. I thought you were taking the position that Catholics, as a whole, worship Mary, not that a few Catholics practice excessive devotion to her.
That point now being clarified, what are you hoping will come of this thread?
In Christ,
Nancy
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cheddarsox
Guest
I have no hopes at all for this thread. I am sorry I ever spoke up. Repeatedly people have ignored my position and assumed I was against them, I guess a fight is more fun than a heart to heart conversation. My faith has been misrepresented, my intentions misrepresented, my experience ignored, etc. etc.Hi cheddar!
I must have misunderstood your position. I thought you were taking the position that Catholics, as a whole, worship Mary, not that a few Catholics practice excessive devotion to her.
That point now being clarified, what are you hoping will come of this thread?
In Christ,
Nancy
No matter how many times, nor in what manner I repeatedly explained my position, people continued to paint me in other colors.
I have no agenda against Mary or the church. Apparently my experiece was unique, and others do not share the same concern. I am glad that what I experienced is uncommon and not the norm, very grateful and relieved.
Peace to all of you,
cheddar
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NonDenom
Guest
T
Topher
Guest
Of course the people in heaven can hear us. This is by nature of the fact that those who are in heaven are in eternal communion with God for whom noting is impossible. Furthermore, you should not refer to those in heaven as “dead”. Christ talked about some people that many considered dead but he called them living when he said that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and then immediately said that God is the God of the living and not the dead. If God is the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and this is the reason for calling himself the God of the living. Then Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob must not be dead but living. Sure they have passed away, but the fact that they are in heaven makes them LIVING.
NonDenom:
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NonDenom
Guest
Hi
I meant dead in a human sense, but then you knew that. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Just because those who are in heaven are in eternal communion with God doesn’t mean that they can hear us. Just because God can do anything, doesn’t mean he does everything, he could physicaly come here and prove to everyone that he is real, but he doesn’t.
Thanks
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