Catholics and Allah

[Patrick_Joshua]

Do us as Catholics have to except Alllah as the God of Abraham, even though the Koran is a direct contradiction towards the OT and the NT?

I know the name Allah is the Arabic name for God.

But the God of the Koran is completely different from the God of the Bible.

I was watching this video, whiched looked pretty convincing.

youtube.com/watch?v=iW4EDy7rxqI&feature=recentf

 

[AndrewA]

The Jews would say Jesus is different from the God of the Torah.

the way I see it:
If someone says “I worship the god of Abraham”
I can only conclude that they worship the god of Abraham.

Even if they have the wrong idea about him.

 

[rossum]

The Jews would say Jesus is different from the God of the Torah.

the way I see it:
If someone says “I worship the god of Abraham”
I can only conclude that they worship the god of Abraham.

Even if they have the wrong idea about him.

Nostra Aetate agrees:3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
That would seem to be good advice.

rossum

 

[LemonAndLime]

The OT is the same as the Jewish Torah.

The Koran has a lot of similarities to the Bible, in terms of prophets etc.

They’re all related to Abraham, therefore it is the same God. But perhaps different interpretations. For example, I regard our Prime Minister as a good person and the right man for the job in the economic climate, whereas my housemate thinks he’s sexist and only cares about getting the rich through the recession, not the poor. They’re different interpretations, but still the same person.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Do us as Catholics have to except Alllah as the God of Abraham, even though the Koran is a direct contradiction towards the OT and the NT?

Yes.

Catechism #841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

 

[Califman831]

Do us as Catholics have to except Alllah as the God of Abraham, even though the Koran is a direct contradiction towards the OT and the NT?

I know the name Allah is the Arabic name for God.

But the God of the Koran is completely different from the God of the Bible.

I was watching this video, whiched looked pretty convincing.

youtube.com/watch?v=iW4EDy7rxqI&feature=recentf

No you do not have to accept a false faith as st Paul taught us in Galations chapter 1

[6] I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. [7] Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. [9] As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema. [10] For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Do these other accept Our Lord Christ as the one true God, no they do not so what they teach is a falsehood. Let him who deals in lies be anathema.

I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages; God from God, light from light, true God from true God; begotten not made, of one substance with the Father; through whom all things were made; who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was made incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. He was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, died, and was buried; and he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven; he sits at the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and of his kingdom there will be no end. And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, and giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who equally with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified; who spoke through the prophets. And I believe that there is one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the remission of sins; and I hope for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen."

 

[Benadam]

The Church doesn’t teach that Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. They in fact believe in the God taught to them by Muhammed who claimed was revealed by an angel.

The Church teaches that Muslims 'claim’ to believe in the God of Abraham. Since the God they believe in was not taught to them from a tradition handed down from Abraham it can only be said that they claim to believe in the God of Abraham.

I can say I recieved revelation from heaven and claim it is a teaching from the same God Abraham worshipped but who could say it really is?

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

The Church doesn’t teach that Muslims believe in the God of Abraham. They in fact believe in the God taught to them by Muhammed who claimed was revealed by an angel.

The Church teaches that Muslims 'claim’ to believe in the God of Abraham. Since the God they believe in was not taught to them from a tradition handed down from Abraham it can only be said that they claim to believe in the God of Abraham.

I can say I recieved revelation from heaven and claim it is a teaching from the same God Abraham worshipped but who could say it really is?

From the CCC posting above “…and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day”.

 

[Benadam]

From the CCC posting above “…and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day”.

Yes. Many people believe in the One God. They acknowledge that their understanding of God is their own and not Abraham’s. They too with us adore the one God.

 

[Califman831]

Yes. Many people believe in the One God. They acknowledge that their understanding of God is their own and not Abraham’s. They too with us adore the one God.

Ask any of them if they accept Jesus as part of the Trinity and they will say no, therefore they do not worship the same God. (Edited) Muslims are not baptized in the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit which is mandated for Christian initiation. They are not part of the holy church.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305clas.asp

by negating the rightful place of our lord Jesus they cannot know the father as stated in Mathew chapter 11:

[26] Yea, Father; for so hath it seemed good in thy sight. [27] All things are delivered to me by my Father. And no one knoweth the Son, but the Father: neither doth any one know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom it shall please the Son to reveal him.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

Catechism #841

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

I don’t get this, somebody please explain this in more detail.

Muslims, reject Christ’s sacrifice but still can recieve salvation.

“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)

 

[Cat_Herder]

I don’t get this, somebody please explain this in more detail.

Muslims, reject Christ’s sacrifice but still can recieve salvation.

Muslims who are invincibly ignorant of the need for Christ’s sacrifice can still be saved by Christ’s sacrifice.

Jesus died for the world. He said that those who do not believe will be condemned, but a Muslim who is ignorant of the truth of Christianity is not an unbeliever but rather someone who has not yet had the chance to believe. The Muslim’s situation is no different than that of, say, a victim of abortion.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

Muslims who are invincibly ignorant of the need for Christ’s sacrifice can still be saved by Christ’s sacrifice.

Jesus died for the world. He said that those who do not believe will be condemned, but a Muslim who is ignorant of the truth of Christianity is not an unbeliever but rather someone who has not yet had the chance to believe. The Muslim’s situation is no different than that of, say, a victim of abortion.

Kind of gives some clarification on the subject, but when does a Muslim, go from being ignorant of the truth of Christianity, to someone who has the chance to believe?

 

[Nita]

Catechism #841

It means that Muslim teaching is correct when it acknowledges there is one God who created the universe. It is the same truth we profess as Catholics, and we can express and share this belief together.
However, there are other Muslim beliefs about the one God that conflict with Catholic teaching, or have not progressed to the same level of understanding (eg. 3 Persons in One God). While we can accept and share with Muslims a faith in God (Alllah) as the only God, and creator of the universe, we cannot accept and share with them expressions of faith in God that are contrary to Catholic teaching.

 

[Axion]

Allah may be the God of Abraham.

HOWEVER that does not mean that the Koran is either a true revelation or true prophecy from God. There are many deceptions that have been claimed to come from God.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

Kind of beginning to get an understanding of this.

Catechism #841
The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

But doesn’t the Catechism #841 contradict with the following scripture quotes?

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I John 5:11 …God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

I John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

If Muslims do not believe in the Son Of God, Christ Jesus, how can the church teach that
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”



I must just admit, the church is much more wiser then me.

 

[Nita]

…
If Muslims do not believe in the Son Of God, Christ Jesus, how can the church teach that
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”



I must just admit, the church is much more wiser then me.

Perhaps in a way similar to children (and severely mentally disabled) who are able to be saved even tho they may be unable to profess belief in Jesus Christ at the time of their death.

Luke12:48 But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

I fount this to be a good read; catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp

I think I was reading Catechism #841 wrong.

"The subject under discussion is not everyone who is saved. The overarching theme of the passage is how various people are related to the Catholic Church, not how many paths to salvation there are. The Council has been describing people who are progressively more distant from the Church. The Council has already stated that the Church is necessary for salvation. And since it expressly places non-Jewish theists in a distant position from the Church, when we encounter the statement that “the plan of salvation also includes,” we should not understand it as saying that non-Jewish theists are saved.

It means that God desires their salvation and has made plans for their salvation—plans that include giving them graces that lead in the direction of salvation and the Church. But that doesn’t mean that they can be saved by being nothing more than non-Jewish theists."

(1) They “profess to hold the faith of Abraham.” The operative word here is “profess”—they claim to hold the faith of Abraham. In reality, their faith is an imperfect version of the faith that comes from Abraham, but they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Abraham, and the Council gives them credit for that.

(2) “Together with us they adore the one, merciful God.” For many, this statement is perplexing. However, as we saw in last issue’s “Brass Tacks” column, God is aware of and acknowledges all that is good and true in the worship offered to him, however imperfect an understanding of him a worshiper may have. While Muslims, like Jews, do not accept the Trinity, they do acknowledge that God is the only true God and that he is merciful. This means that they honor things that are true about God but have a limited understanding of him.

 

[rikkk1958]

Let’s apply logic here.

Even if the Muslims are deceived by Muhammed or the devil, but when proclaiming that Allah is the God of Abraham, admitting that it is the same God who created everything then it must be the God we also believe.

However, because of the Quran that teaches a different way of religion, Muslims who do not accept the truth will surely not be be saved. Muslims who are told that there is only one Way to enter the Kingdom of God must seek for the truth, denounced the teachings of the Quran, be born again, baptized, and fulfill all the teachings and instructions of Christ.

We want to believe that there is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church. However, although we are told we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect, this is impossible for anyone, but for God everything is possible. Mercy is by Him alone and working to attain it is the only Way. This is the reason why we are to remain in His Church and follow Him.

I therefore say, yes they are the same God, but what matters is how we must work for our salvation because, what good if you believe but do not obey the Word. The first and foremost of all the commandments speaks loudly than just believing.

 

[Califman831]

Given the level of mass communication existing today how many muslims have not heard that Christ is God?

DRC: Matthew Chapter 3

[9] And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham for our father. For I tell you that God is able of these stones to raise up children to Abraham. [10] For now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that doth not yield good fruit, shall be cut down, and cast into the fire.