Catholics and Allah

[Church_Militant]

First…why in the world would you ever bother to listen to a video from Dave Hunt? This is the same guy who cranks out the stuff refuted in Hunting the Whore of Babylon.

He’s an a-C bigot so anything that he says is suspect + from the outset.

The Church teaches that because the Muslims claim decent from Abraham that even though their beliefs are vastly different from those we Christians hold that God in his sovereign providence has His own plan for reaching them and bringing them to conversion.

The mechanics of that plan are, (as the saying goes), “above our pay grade” and if we choose to spend our time arguing about this then we (IMO) waste valuable time when we can be getting the Gospel out to effect the conversions of all those we are always near.

We are the laborers in the vineyards of the Lord…not the boss.

 

[thirddec]

For a non arabic person to pray to Allah would be heracy because by doing so they would be praying to the God outlined in the Koran. For an arab christian to do so is different because God knows the heart and knows exactly who they are praying too.

The situation for Muslims is cloudier for although they believe they are praying to the God of Abraham who is the God in the Quran. This I believe is false ; the allah in the Koran is not the God of Abraham. When the jews in the desert worshiped the golden calf i’m sure they thought it was the God of Abraham but they were mistaken. As far as muslims and salvation I take the view they are in the same situation as any other pagan and God will judge based on their individual circumstances but being outside of the Faith of Christianity does make it more difficult for them as they are limited in the spiritual support we recieve from Christ through our church.

Christ did come for all mankind and want to save everyone so he was crucified for muslims too whether they believe it or not.

1 Peter 4:7-11 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)****

But the end of all is at hand. Be prudent therefore, and watch in prayers.
But before all things have a constant mutual charity among yourselves: for charity covereth a multitude of sins.Using hospitality one towards another, without murmuring,
As every man hath received grace, ministering the same one to another: as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.If any man speak, let him speak, as the words of God. If any man minister, let him do it, as of the power, which God administereth: that in all things God may be honoured through Jesus Christ: to whom is glory and empire for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Church_Militant]

Sorry Third, but that’s not right.

Consider our own use of Latin. When we say “Dominus Deus omnipotens” (Lord God Almighty) our word for God…“Deus” is precisely the same as that used by the pagan Romans for their gods.

By your logic that would make our sue of these words heretical which is clearly not the case.

Allah is just the word for God in a foreign language my friend, so your is a fallacious defense and we have to do better than that.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[Quatsch]

Kind of beginning to get an understanding of this.

But doesn’t the Catechism #841 contradict with the following scripture quotes?

If Muslims do not believe in the Son Of God, Christ Jesus, how can the church teach that
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator”



I must just admit, the church is much more wiser then me.

The quote is from Lumen Gentium, check it out in context here: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

It is number 16, I believe. I haven’t read it, but just thought I would provide the whole context.

 

[thirddec]

Sorry Third, but that’s not right.

Consider our own use of Latin. When we say “Dominus Deus omnipotens” (Lord God Almighty) our word for God…“Deus” is precisely the same as that used by the pagan Romans for their gods.

By your logic that would make our sue of these words heretical which is clearly not the case.

Allah is just the word for God in a foreign language my friend, so your is a fallacious defense and we have to do better than that.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

I understand what you say but I think you miss my point ; my point is we cab pray to The ONE TRUE GOD and you can call it Allah and if you are a Christian I have no problem with that because it is the same God we pray to but as for Muslims they may use the same word Allah but the allah they pray to the one in the Quran is nothing like the God we pray to. If a child having a bath decided his rubber ducky was the one true god and was arabic and called it allah and prayed to it ?

I may not be the best theologian or philosopher but i’m sure you get my point

 

[Church_Militant]

I understand what you say but I think you miss my point ; my point is we cab pray to The ONE TRUE GOD and you can call it Allah and if you are a Christian I have no problem with that because it is the same God we pray to but as for Muslims they may use the same word Allah but the allah they pray to the one in the Quran is nothing like the God we pray to. If a child having a bath decided his rubber ducky was the one true god and was arabic and called it allah and prayed to it ?

I may not be the best theologian or philosopher but i’m sure you get my point

Regardless…your logic is fallacious. I get your point just fine…it’s still based upon fallaciously flawed logic.

Just because Islam’s doctrines do not conform to Christianity does not mean that their use of the Arabic term for God is wrong.

Nowhere does the Church teach that their doctrines are the same, but only that they profess themselves to believe in an Abrahamic style monotheistic God.

Basically, the Church teaches that how God effects their conversion is “above our pay grade” and that’s it,but that they do profess themselves to be believers in the God of Abraham.

 

[JReducation]

I understand what you say but I think you miss my point ; my point is we cab pray to The ONE TRUE GOD and you can call it Allah and if you are a Christian I have no problem with that because it is the same God we pray to but as for Muslims they may use the same word Allah but the allah they pray to the one in the Quran is nothing like the God we pray to. If a child having a bath decided his rubber ducky was the one true god and was arabic and called it allah and prayed to it ?

**I may not be the best theologian or philosopher **but i’m sure you get my point

You’re right about that. Let’s look at what Cardinal Ratzinger wrote for the CCC, one of our most outstanding theologians.

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

1. They must acknowledge THE CREATOR, not some foreign pagan god.
2. They must profess to hold the faith of Abraham
3. They must adore the one God with us [Catholics], even though the communion is imperfect . . . but it’s a beginning.
4. They must acknowledge that he is the merciful God
5. They must acknowledge that he will judge mankind on the last day.

These are all very Catholic themes. If they comply with these Catholic themes, then they are worshiping the same God that Catholics worship.

The fact that they do not acknowledge the Trinity, does not mean that they worship a different God.

The Jews have never acknowledged the Trinity, but we don’t say that they worship a different God.

What we’re looking at here is a deficient knowledge of God, not a different god.

There is a big theological difference between deficiency in our knowledge and a deficient god.

The Muslim and Jewish problem is not God, it’s their understanding of God that’s deficient.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Church_Militant]

Thanks Bro Jay. You express that so much better than I did.

 

[thirddec]

So If I worship Mithras I am worshiping Christ as he’s sorta similar mmmmh

My God who the Muslins call Allah is the God of the Quran ; mmmmh

So if satan appeared and said he is the one true god so call him allah it would be ok because the word allah means The One True God; I’m sorry guys but Why didnt all those silly Christians who died at the hands of the Muslims not understand that. WOW how stupid of them.

IF I CALL MY RUBBER DUCKY THE LORD GOD OF ABRAHAM AND REALLY BELIEVE HE IS : I AM STILL WORSHIPING A FALSE GOD the only people here playing silly word games is you guys.



This Quote is so relavent

If I call a tail a leg ; how many legs does a dog have ?

four of course ; calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.

If the Muslims wish to call their God ALLAH creator of the universe and say its the same God as Abraham and they call themselves to be followers of Same Abrahamic traditions.

etc etc etc it does not make it so ; ask our Jewish friends is the God of the Quran ; the one that the muslims worship the same as they worship i’m sure you would get a suitable reply that doesn’t bear repeating here.

Repeating A LIE often enough wont make it true ; If you guys want to pray to The allah of the Quran go ahead.

If you are so convinced they are the same go ahead get on your knees now and

Say Dear Father ; The Allah of the Quran
accept me into your kingdom.

If its the same God whats the problem. Start a thread If the Allah of the Quran is the same God we pray to is it OK to rewrite the our father so that we can all pray

Our father , the Allah of the Quran ; who art in heaven.

AAAAARGHHHH

Jesus, Mary and Joseph help me

 

[jmcrae]

I understand what you say but I think you miss my point ; my point is we cab pray to The ONE TRUE GOD and you can call it Allah and if you are a Christian I have no problem with that because it is the same God we pray to but as for Muslims they may use the same word Allah but the allah they pray to the one in the Quran is nothing like the God we pray to. If a child having a bath decided his rubber ducky was the one true god and was arabic and called it allah and prayed to it ?

I may not be the best theologian or philosopher but i’m sure you get my point

There is only one God. There are not two Gods.

It is therefore physically impossible for anyone to pray to “another God” - since there is no other God.

Someone praying to a rubber ducky is not praying to God. Muslims don’t pray to idols, however.

They have a lot of mistaken ideas about God, for sure. But, if they are praying to “a God” then it has to be the one and only God in existence.

 

[thirddec]

There is only one God. There are not two Gods.
But, if they are praying to “a God” then it has to be the one and only God in existence.

So someone praying to Odin is praying to God by your own words.

Also remember Abraham was not a Jew he was a Muslim by their belief. So the God of Abraham the profess to follow is the God of Abraham the Muslim .

 

[jmcrae]

So someone praying to Odin is praying to God by your own words.

Also remember Abraham was not a Jew he was a Muslim by their belief. So the God of Abraham the profess to follow is the God of Abraham the Muslim .

Abraham wasn’t of any specific religion - he was the first person since the destruction of Babel to realize that the one God who created everything that is, existed.

Those who recognize that God is one God, and that He is our Creator, as Abraham did, are Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

 

[thirddec]

Abraham wasn’t of any specific religion - he was the first person since the destruction of Babel to realize that the one God who created everything that is, existed.

Those who recognize that God is one God, and that He is our Creator, as Abraham did, are Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Sorry ASK A MUSLIM he will tell you There i only one God Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet. They clearly prescribe the two statments together because they know that the Christians might mistake what they mean by Allah. Mohammed is not a prophet of our God. So if you accept that their God is your God you must accept Mohammed as his prophet because that is their God the one who has Mohammed as his prophet. None other.

 

[pnewton]

So if you accept that their God is your God you must accept Mohammed as his prophet because that is their God the one who has Mohammed as his prophet. None other.

Fuzzy logic. Just because Muslims believe the two go together does not mean that they must. We are under no obligation to think like a Muslim.

 

[pnewton]

So someone praying to Odin is praying to God by your own words.

Also remember Abraham was not a Jew he was a Muslim by their belief. So the God of Abraham the profess to follow is the God of Abraham the Muslim .

Odin is closer to the rubber ducky mentioned above. Odin is the God worshipped by Abraham. Neither were rubber duckies. Being delusion about history and thinking Abraham worshipped ducks is not the same as understanding historical reality.

 

[thirddec]

I read in the Question on masons that they believe all religions are equal ; at this rate we are all going to be masons soon.

There is no Fuzzy Logic at all the reason the muslims put them together is so it is very clear to all who they are calling Allah. You are the one that is fuzzy. If A muslim came in this forum and they would back me up; they do not pray to the same GOD as us. You would try to tell a muslim that he is really praying to the Trinity he just doesn’t know it is as crazy as you are a muslim and you just didn’t know it . Thats why when you convert you will be called a revert by them not a convert.

 

[thirddec]

Odin is closer to the rubber ducky mentioned above. Odin is the God worshipped by Abraham. Neither were rubber duckies. Being delusion about history and thinking Abraham worshipped ducks is not the same as understanding historical reality.

by the way my quote above makes no sence unless you actually show the sentence I was talking about . You are already on your way to becoming a good muslim quoting out of context

 

[Thomas_Casey]

Sorry ASK A MUSLIM he will tell you There i only one God Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet. They clearly prescribe the two statments together because they know that the Christians might mistake what they mean by Allah. Mohammed is not a prophet of our God. So if you accept that their God is your God you must accept Mohammed as his prophet because that is their God the one who has Mohammed as his prophet. None other.

You are being deliberately argumentative. The Catholic Church has spoken on this issue and has agreed that the God of Abraham is the God of Israel, the God of Islam and the God of Jesus Christ. There is no other God.

What is it that you really want? Are you out to prove the Church wrong and you right? Is that what this is all about? If that’s what it’s about, you’re wasting your time. I would rather take my chances with the Church’s understanding of this.

Are you setting yourself up as an authority over Pope Benedict XVI? That’s who you’re up against. He’s the founder and still current president of the Catholic-Muslim Commission. Your campaign is not doing his work any service.

While the Pontiff tries to build the dialog between the Church and Islam, you light a match under his efforts by inciting Catholics against the work of the Holy Father and by offending Muslims. It sounds to me as if you have an ax to grind and your activity is divisive. It has nothing to do with saving souls. It’s about making a point.

OK, you’ve made your point. You have no use for what the Church has to say about Islam and you have no use for the work of the the popes during the last 25 years and you certainly have no use for the work of our current pope and you’re determined to divide Catholics over this issue and offend the Muslims while you’re at it.

We must be very careful that our behavior is responsible. It is one thing to set out to evangelize and save souls. It is another to set out to divide, destroy and condemn the good work that others are doing.

What the Church has said about Islam and the work that she’s doing with the Muslim people will not only open the lines of communication between two people who have hurt each other and mistrusted each other for centuries, but it may even save some lives. The Church has not pulled these ideas out of her hat. These ideas have been carefully thought through for many years and many holy and intelligent people gave their (name removed by moderator)ut into this.

My own religious family was very instrumental in helping the Vatican better understand the Muslim faith, after 800 years living among them as we were sent to do by our Holy Father Francis and Pope Gregory IX. The command was to evangelize by presence, but avoid all forms of proselytizing. The second command was to try to understand and share your understanding. We’re talking about 800 years of presence and fraternal living among Muslims and Jews in Palestine.

This is not something that is new, but the result of observations and sharing over eight centuries. It would be very silly on our part to believe that we can top all those years of experience and feedback that the Church has been getting not only from Franciscans in the Holy Land, but also from other sources.

Attacking and sabbotaging the work of the Church is not the way to evangelize.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[JReducation]

So If I worship Mithras I am worshiping Christ as he’s sorta similar mmmmh

My God who the Muslins call Allah is the God of the Quran ; mmmmh

So if satan appeared and said he is the one true god so call him allah it would be ok because the word allah means The One True God; I’m sorry guys but Why didnt all those silly Christians who died at the hands of the Muslims not understand that. WOW how stupid of them.

IF I CALL MY RUBBER DUCKY THE LORD GOD OF ABRAHAM AND REALLY BELIEVE HE IS : I AM STILL WORSHIPING A FALSE GOD the only people here playing silly word games is you guys.



This Quote is so relavent

If I call a tail a leg ; how many legs does a dog have ?

four of course ; calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg.

If the Muslims wish to call their God ALLAH creator of the universe and say its the same God as Abraham and they call themselves to be followers of Same Abrahamic traditions.

etc etc etc it does not make it so ; ask our Jewish friends is the God of the Quran ; the one that the muslims worship the same as they worship i’m sure you would get a suitable reply that doesn’t bear repeating here.

Repeating A LIE often enough wont make it true ; If you guys want to pray to The allah of the Quran go ahead.

If you are so convinced they are the same go ahead get on your knees now and

Say Dear Father ; The Allah of the Quran
accept me into your kingdom.

If its the same God whats the problem. Start a thread If the Allah of the Quran is the same God we pray to is it OK to rewrite the our father so that we can all pray

Our father , the Allah of the Quran ; who art in heaven.

AAAAARGHHHH

Jesus, Mary and Joseph help me

You are being deliberately argumentative. The Catholic Church has spoken on this issue and has agreed that the God of Abraham is the God of Israel, the God of Islam and the God of Jesus Christ. There is no other God.

What is it that you really want? Are you out to prove the Church wrong and you right? Is that what this is all about? If that’s what it’s about, you’re wasting your time. I would rather take my chances with the Church’s understanding of this.

Are you setting yourself up as an authority over Pope Benedict XVI? That’s who you’re up against. He’s the founder and still current president of the Catholic-Muslim Commission. Your campaign is not doing his work any service.

While the Pontiff tries to build the dialog between the Church and Islam, you light a match under his efforts by inciting Catholics against the work of the Holy Father and by offending Muslims. It sounds to me as if you have an ax to grind and your activity is divisive. It has nothing to do with saving souls. It’s about making a point.

OK, you’ve made your point. You have no use for what the Church has to say about Islam and you have no use for the work of the the popes during the last 25 years and you certainly have no use for the work of our current pope and you’re determined to divide Catholics over this issue and offend the Muslims while you’re at it.

We must be very careful that our behavior is responsible. It is one thing to set out to evangelize and save souls. It is another to set out to divide, destroy and condemn the good work that others are doing.

What the Church has said about Islam and the work that she’s doing with the Muslim people will not only open the lines of communication between two people who have hurt each other and mistrusted each other for centuries, but it may even save some lives. The Church has not pulled these ideas out of her hat. These ideas have been carefully thought through for many years and many holy and intelligent people gave their (name removed by moderator)ut into this.

My own religious family was very instrumental in helping the Vatican better understand the Muslim faith, after 800 years living among them as we were sent to do by our Holy Father Francis and Pope Gregory IX. The command was to evangelize by presence, but avoid all forms of proselytizing. The second command was to try to understand and share your understanding. We’re talking about 800 years of presence and fraternal living among Muslims and Jews in Palestine.

This is not something that is new, but the result of observations and sharing over eight centuries. It would be very silly on our part to believe that we can top all those years of experience and feedback that the Church has been getting not only from Franciscans in the Holy Land, but also from other sources.

Attacking and sabbotaging the work of the Church is not the way to evangelize.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[thirddec]

Do the muslims agree that we both pray to the same God because if they don’t agree they will just laugh at you. Show me a muslim that agrees that they pray to the same God as us.

Why put a question up if you consider there is no discussion.

You are accusing me of being arguementative when the basis of this discussion as far as I can see is this is what the Church teaches so Agree so why did the Questioner ask the Question.

But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

This is the road down there is nothing we wont compramise on except Papal Infallibility because without it we cant continue down this sell out

God of Abraham is the God of Israel, the God of Islam and the God of Jesus Christ. There is no other God. I believe this but a muslim believes Abraham was a Muslim and that is why they call it the God of Islam. Do you believe Abraham was a muslim because if you dont then they believe in a different abraham and a different god.

Offend Muslims ; they would be offended by us presuming to tell them they pray to a trinity without being aware of it. Go outside a mosque and wear that on a placard see if i’m wrong.