Catholics and Billy Graham

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I’m a convert from Protestantism to the Catholic Church. I heard about Christ through the Protestant church, not the Catholic. And to be honest I think they still do a much better job of evangelising as a whole.

I don’t particularly listen to anybody, as I’m hard of hearing, although from time to time I’ll buy a Christian DVD. I have a few tapes of my old pastor, and now and again I’ll dig them out. But the only DVD I’ve got that’s Catholic was Bishop Fulton Sheen towards the end of his life, and it’s pretty good.

But I wouldn’t have a problem listening to Billy Graham.

While I’m at it, my favourite apologist is CS Lewis, and he was an Anglican. Again, like Billy Graham, he was not anti-Catholic. I haven’t read much Chesterton, since his books are fairly hard to find these days. But I don’t know of any comparable figure in modern Catholic literature.

The reality is that there are no Catholic Billy Grahams. Bishop Sheen died 30 years ago or more, so where’s his evangelical replacement?

Likewise bookshops - I don’t particularly like buying books online, as I like to have a bit of a skim through it before I decide to take it. The only Catholic bookshop in Brisbane is in the city itself, and I don’t work in the city. That’s 30kms away, yet within easy driving distance are two large well equipped Protestant bookshops.

No wonder they’re cornering the field.
 
I love listening to Billy Graham. I am sorry to say that I had to listen to Billy Graham and some other evangelical preachers to get interested in the Bible. I always wondered why all these non-Catholics knew the bible forward and backward, and Catholics knew very few Bible stories. The readings at Mass are only a segment of a book of the Bible and if you aren’t going daily, you don’t get the gist of the story, unless the priest explains the whole story on a Sunday ( which they don’t because they usually focus on the Gospel), rather than the Old Testament. I even went to Catholic school until 6th grade, but the only O.T.stories we knew were Adam and Eve, Noah, and a tad bit about Moses.

I recently heard some women who went to Catholic school for 12 years tell someone that Catholics don’t read the Bible at Mass or on their own. That was quite an eye opener. What does she think the readings are from? I was more than a bit disturbed hearing that, but if I hadn’t been seeking the Word of God on my own, I may have been under the same impression. THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE! Parents, read the Bible to your kids!
 
I look at Billy Graham the same way I look at Joel Osteen or Pat Robertson. I see them as “Christian Lifestyle Comentators”, or Christian Evangalists, and nothing more. I don’t see them as pastors, priests, Fathers, or in any official context. They guide people specific to what they believe. I see them as inspiring on a certain level, but incomplete on all levels.

I have listened to both Billy Graham and Joel Osteen, and have sometimes thought, “That’s good, that’s inspirig, that’s a positive thing to keep in mind.” But, it’s kind of like a magazine on a certain subject, compared to a teaching textbook used in a university that people turn to for the whole complete truth.

And as much as I have enjoyed listening to them, there is always something there that tells me that the origins of what they are saying comes from a different source than what I was taught. It seems inspiring, but also unstructured, it also seems to lack authority. And of course, these people aren’t ordained by the true Church. When one is ordained, he is a conduit for the Holy Spirit to transubstantiate the Eucharist. So I think, he may be inspired by the Holy Spirit, but it’s just not comparable to a Catholic Pastor that we know has his Faith bound in Heaven.

Billy Graham never got near, for the most part, prosperity gospel. But Joel Osteen, he mentions riches, promotions, unemployment to better-job-paying-twice-as-much employment, and sudden check in the mail topics quite a bit. These guys like Robertson and Osteen, it’s like money is everything to them.

On the whole, to me, Protestants are way too much into praying for money. I have a Protestant friend, she says to me, “You mean you don’t pray for money?!?!” She is constantly losing money to scams, bad ex-friends, and car accidents. To me it’s clear, but I never say anything anymore.

If an old video of Billy Graham is on, I say it’s okay to watch, why not, everything is clearer, everything, with an additional perspective. But, make sure your own perspective and Faith is well founded and explored to begin with.

There are differences. Huge differences. Protestants can get up there and talk. They love that, speaking their opinion for an hour only quoting one or two out-of-context passages, but they’re never going to tell you what they really think of the Catholic Church. Just my opinion, when they go on and on talking like that? It kind of reminds me of Jobs friends, putting words into the mouth of God. That’s why I love the Catholic Mass. It’s more true to Scripture than these sola scriptura sermons. Go figure. Just another one of those things.

…Now, if someone doesn’t understand where I come from, should I trust him to guide me where I’m going? If someone says my fathers aren’t quite as christian as them, don’t you think he’s going to attempt to change me?

What these people above are saying is that; the more understanding and devout you become to Catholicism, the clearer it is to you that there are temptations everywhere leading you away from The One True Faith.

I say stay pure, stay true.
 
hn160 said:
Because Lutherans believe that Christ done it all on the cross, we don’t have to do anything towards our salvation, no decision necessary oer works.
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You have a misunderstanding and antiquated notion of what Lutheran’s believe.

Fact is, the Vatican and the Lutheran Church have reached an agreement on the maters of faith.

Jim
 
gentle_atheist said:
So who caved? The Catholics or the Lutherans?
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Neither, it was an understanding of what each was saying and they finally agreed that it was the same thing.

Understanding comes about through talking with each other.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Neither, it was an understanding of what each was saying and they finally agreed that it was the same thing.

Understanding comes about through talking with each other.

Jim
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So it was all just a big misunderstanding??? Imagine that. I always thought that Lutherans believed that man is saved by faith alone and Catholics believed that man is saved by faith and good works. So which is it? What was the misunderstanding?
 
gentle_atheist said:
So it was all just a big misunderstanding??? Imagine that. I always thought that Lutherans believed that man is saved by faith alone and Catholics believed that man is saved by faith and good works. So which is it? What was the misunderstanding?
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Faith without works is dead. If one truly has faith, they will do the works.

I grew up Lutheran and became Catholic as an adult. I can honestly say the core of my beliefs did not change one iota from one to the other. What I learned through RCIA, through attending mass over the past nearly 30 years, and through my experience in working in a Catholic school, It’s the little details that are different, that’s all. The core is the same.

My mom watched Billy Graham on TV when I was a kid at home. I always enjoyed his talks. Billy Graham is a good guy.
 
ValPal said:
I happen to like Billy Graham. He is true to his faith, ethical, and has put a positive face on Christianity. He might not be Catholic, but at least people are being pointed in the right direction. If anyone is going to listen to a Protestant, it might as well be him.
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I actually went to a Billy Graham ‘concert’ when he was in UK way back in 1986 about then. Misson Praise hymn books came out of that event for our churches. 😉
 
gentle_atheist said:
So it was all just a big misunderstanding??? Imagine that. I always thought that Lutherans believed that man is saved by faith alone and Catholics believed that man is saved by faith and good works. So which is it? What was the misunderstanding?
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It was a grave misunderstanding which casused a division in the Church, including wars and persecutions of people both Catholic and Protestant aike.

The reality is, when Luther saw the abuses of Bishops having people pay money for indulgences with the guarantee of cutting their time in purgatory, he was right to reject it.

When he saw the warrior Pope riding into his palaced garmented in suit of gold-plated armor, he was right to reject it.

The wrong was not trusting in God for the transformation of the Church away from these abuses, but allowing himself to be pressured by nobels in Munich, who wanted to split from Rome.

Either way, Pope John Paul II and especially Pope Benedict XVI, have brought Lutherans and the Church closer together, which we should be joyful over.

Jim
 
My very strict Irish Catholic grandmother and I enjoyed listening to Billy Graham…he really sobers you up to the hum drum of daily living…he helps people come to the first step of coming to Christ or avoiding being lukewarm…but he doesn’t tell you the next step…which church and form of worship.,…so we kept listening.
 
Catholic90 said:
Faith without works is dead. If one truly has faith, they will do the works.
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That’s from the Epistle of James. Isn’t that why Luther wanted to remove it from the Bible?

How could Luther write the following if he believed that faith without good works is dead:

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”
Catholic90 said:
I grew up Lutheran and became Catholic as an adult. I can honestly say the core of my beliefs did not change one iota from one to the other. What I learned through RCIA, through attending mass over the past nearly 30 years, and through my experience in working in a Catholic school, It’s the little details that are different, that’s all. The core is the same.
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Perhaps you didn’t fully understand either faith?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
It was a grave misunderstanding which casused a division in the Church, including wars and persecutions of people both Catholic and Protestant aike.
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There was no misunderstanding. Do you think that previous popes were a bunch of dolts? That they didn’t know up from down?

I better quit. This is getting me really upset. I apologize for going off on a tangent. I don’t want to derail this thread.
 
gentle_atheist said:
There was no misunderstanding. Do you think that previous popes were a bunch of dolts? That they didn’t know up from down?

I better quit. This is getting me really upset. I apologize for going off on a tangent. I don’t want to derail this thread.
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There were political agendas with the state and the Church, why do you think there were abuses on indulgences?

It’s far easier to accept the dirty laundry of Church history than attempt to sweep it away.

Ask yourself, why did Pope Benedict XVI recently praise Luther, if he was so evil?

Jim
 
gentle_atheist said:
That’s from the Epistle of James. Isn’t that why Luther wanted to remove it from the Bible?

How could Luther write the following if he believed that faith without good works is dead:

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.”

Perhaps you didn’t fully understand either faith?
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Perhaps he understands both better than you. You obviously misunderstand Luther’s intentions in his letter to Melanchthon. What he is saying to go out into the world and do good works, even though they are mixed with sin. Trust in God’s grace and mercy, and recognize that through His suffering, death, and resurrection, repentance is heard, and absolution granted, for Christ’s sake.

But let’s read what Luther did say about good works.
VERSE 6. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.
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Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.
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and what the Lutheran confessions (more important than luther the man), say:
  1. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, **are bound **to do good works.
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9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.
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10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.
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11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said:** The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes**, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.
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Jon
 
Here’s proof that Billy Graham is a friend to Catholics:

None other than our pal, Jack T. Chick, has denounced Dr. Graham as a Catholic sympathizer, and has written a well-researched article to prove it.

I would post a link to the article, but I’m not sure if it’s allowed on this site. You can find it by Googling, if you want to read it.
 
Cat said:
Here’s proof that Billy Graham is a friend to Catholics:

None other than our pal, Jack T. Chick, has denounced Dr. Graham as a Catholic sympathizer, and has written a well-researched article to prove it.

I would post a link to the article, but I’m not sure if it’s allowed on this site. You can find it by Googling, if you want to read it.
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Jack Chick is well researched? That is news to me;)

MJ
 
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