Catholics and Firearms

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Rand2410 said:
Hopefully the poor souls that were in a wreck have the mind to make a racket , yelling, pounding on the door and such , before they attempt to enter the house.

Yes, James, this is not an easy decision that’s why I started this thread, to explore the issues related to ownership of a firearm. Thank you.
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Rand,
You’re welcome. I hope that everyone understands that I’m not making any sort of judgement call. Just sort of tossing things out for consideration.

I agree that in the cases I outlined the people would begin by pounding and trying to rouse the household, but what would be the homeowner’s reaction, waking from a sound sleep, to hearing the ruckus and possible breaking glass or whatever…
These are things to carefully consider.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
Rand,
You’re welcome. I hope that everyone understands that I’m not making any sort of judgement call. Just sort of tossing things out for consideration.

I agree that in the cases I outlined the people would begin by pounding and trying to rouse the household, but what would be the homeowner’s reaction, waking from a sound sleep, to hearing the ruckus and possible breaking glass or whatever…
These are things to carefully consider.

Peace
James
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It all adds to the discussion James. I have plenty of time to think it over. I’m in no rush to purchase a firearm at this point.

Thanks.
 
JRKH said:
In most cases this is likely true - - but not all.

Two scenarios come to mind where a person under stress might break into a home.
In both cases it may be that they either believe the home is unoccupied, or are unsure but need to get in…
  1. Rural area - Bad car wreck - HAVE to get help - No cell phone or no cell phone coverage…
  2. Rural area - Severe winter conditions - Auto accident or just stuck - Need to get someplace warm…
In these circumstances the fact that a person chooses to break in is NOT proof of evil intent…
BUT based on what some have said here, they might find that they just shot a completely innocent person with no criminal record who was unaware that the house was occupied and simply needed to get inside…

Granted, these are unusual circumstances, but the person who is willing to use deadly force if necessary had better be sure that it actually IS necessary.

This is why, in my earlier post I recommended getting the very best training available. in such situations it is absolutely critical that one is able to make the correct split second decision.

Peace
James
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You can what if all day long. It’s pointless. If you choose to take additional risk with your own life, then do so.
 
Rand2410 said:
Is it acceptable for Roman Catholics to own fire arms that would be used to defend their home and family?

Background: I currently live in a very small town in NY. Our little hamlet has had three murders in 30 years and almost no other violent crimes. Due to my families financial position and the rising costs of living in NY ( on Long Island) we will be forced to relocate to a new state(a cheaper place to live). It is my position that being in a unfamiliar town, I would feel a certain amount of comfort knowing I have a firearm ( loaded and in a tap-style lock box) with which to defend my new home and my wife ( our children are grown and out of the house). I am comfortable with firearms and did enjoy shooting as a sport in the past.

So . . . keeping the 10 Commandments in mind , is it “acceptable” for a catholic to own a firearm with the knowledge that some day he/she could someday use that weapon to defend their family and possibly take a human life? 🤷
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I’m from Suffolk county myself, I heard things are getting very very bad on the Island, and not just in the traditional hot spots like Hempstead, Mastic Beach, Wyandanch, etc.

I own several guns (I carry a 9mm on my person and keep a .45 in my glovebox since I now live in a state that understands I have the right to protect myself) and if you can somehow finagle the “permission” to own a handgun in NY, DO NOT PUT IT IN A LOCKBOX.

The old 80’s cat burglar is dead and gone, now its home invasions by MS-13 gangbangers looking to rob, rape, mutilate and sometimes kill.

They(always attack in groups) are fast, head spinningly so. You need to get to your arms fast and be trained via muscle memory to do what you have to do without fumbling.

Situational awareness will avoid 90% of problems be they inside or outside your home, for the other 10% better be ready to shoot.
 
Calgar said:
You can what if all day long. It’s pointless. If you choose to take additional risk with your own life, then do so.
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That’s all I’m saying. One needs to really, carefully consider the possible ramifications of the matter and make the best decision they can.

I have refrained from making any comments on my own personal decision, but will do so now since you make reference to the “additional risk to (my) own life” comment above.

For me personally I believe that my life is in the hands of God. This body, this existence here on earth is nothing compared to my eternal life. For that reason I am not greatly concerned with it.
Therefore, for me - in my home - there is really nothing that I am willing to take the life of another over. For me - personally - THAT is taking an additional risk with my (eternal) life…

This is not a judgement of others, merely stating the conclusion I have come to for myself.

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
That’s all I’m saying. One needs to really, carefully consider the possible ramifications of the matter and make the best decision they can.

I have refrained from making any comments on my own personal decision, but will do so now since you make reference to the “additional risk to (my) own life” comment above.

For me personally I believe that my life is in the hands of God. This body, this existence here on earth is nothing compared to my eternal life. For that reason I am not greatly concerned with it.
Therefore, for me - in my home - there is really nothing that I am willing to take the life of another over. For me - personally - THAT is taking an additional risk with my (eternal) life…

This is not a judgement of others, merely stating the conclusion I have come to for myself.

Peace
James
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:cool:This is where for me it would be a toss up over owining a firearm for the sole purpose of home defense.

And on the other side, could the decision to own a firearm for home defense and having to shoot a person(s) be also God’s wrath or choice for said person(s)?
 
JRKH said:
That’s all I’m saying. One needs to really, carefully consider the possible ramifications of the matter and make the best decision they can.

I have refrained from making any comments on my own personal decision, but will do so now since you make reference to the “additional risk to (my) own life” comment above.

For me personally I believe that my life is in the hands of God. This body, this existence here on earth is nothing compared to my eternal life. For that reason I am not greatly concerned with it.
Therefore, for me - in my home - there is really nothing that I am willing to take the life of another over. For me - personally - THAT is taking an additional risk with my (eternal) life…

This is not a judgement of others, merely stating the conclusion I have come to for myself.

Peace
James
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I’m in complete agreement with you. I’m military and quite comfortable with the fact that I could be called home rather quickly while on the job.

But when it comes to home defense, and such, I have a wife and two children that God has seen fit to put under my care.
 
Geist said:
The old 80’s cat burglar is dead and gone, now its home invasions by MS-13 gangbangers looking to rob, rape, mutilate and sometimes kill.

They(always attack in groups) are fast, head spinningly so. You need to get to your arms fast and be trained via muscle memory to do what you have to do without fumbling.
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Time and noise are your friend and their enemy. Security gates on all doors (they make pretty ones that your wife won’t mind), driveway alarm, motion detecting spotlights on all four sides of your home, storm windows (not as ugly or secure as window bars, but still require the burgler to spend extra time breaking through them), and katy bars on the doors (again, they make pretty ones your wife will like).

Not only will these improvements make it harder to get into your home, but they might just pass you by completely.
 
You make it sound like the only choice is to kill the intruder or your family will die. There are many more choices.

If there is an intruder in your house and you cannot positively identify them, you can call the cops and/or wait in your bedroom with your guns loaded and the door locked. This may sound cowardly, but you will not have to live with the possibility of having killed an unarmed person. For most people without military or law enforcement training, your chances in a firefight are probably much better while taking cover behind your bed than searching through a dark house in your underwear. Yes, the intruder may get away with some silverware or your TV, but are you willing to take someone’s life over a TV?

You may also be risking your family if you go to prison for shooting an unarmed person in the back, even if they are in your house. I’m not saying I agree with these laws, but people have gone to prison for much less.
Calgar said:
Are you willing to risk your family on a “what if”? Breaking into an occupied home is proof of evil intent.
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yellow8yellowM said:
You make it sound like the only choice is to kill the intruder or your family will die. There are many more choices.

If there is an intruder in your house and you cannot positively identify them, you can call the cops and/or wait in your bedroom with your guns loaded and the door locked. This may sound cowardly, but you will not have to live with the possibility of having killed an unarmed person. For most people without military or law enforcement training, your chances in a firefight are probably much better while taking cover behind your bed than searching through a dark house in your underwear. Yes, the intruder may get away with some silverware or your TV, but are you willing to take someone’s life over a TV?

You may also be risking your family if you go to prison for shooting an unarmed person in the back, even if they are in your house. I’m not saying I agree with these laws, but people have gone to prison for much less.
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Good points - Especially as regards the idea of yourself going to prison. I too may not agree with such laws but…
I think this gets back to really knowing what the laws are and being properly trained.

Peace
James
 
Calgar said:
Time and noise are your friend and their enemy. Security gates on all doors (they make pretty ones that your wife won’t mind), driveway alarm, motion detecting spotlights on all four sides of your home, storm windows (not as ugly or secure as window bars, but still require the burgler to spend extra time breaking through them), and katy bars on the doors (again, they make pretty ones your wife will like).

Not only will these improvements make it harder to get into your home, but they might just pass you by completely.
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👍👍
 
fbl9 said:
:cool:This is where for me it would be a toss up over owning a firearm for the sole purpose of home defense.

And on the other side, could the decision to own a firearm for home defense and having to shoot a person(s) be also God’s wrath or choice for said person(s)?
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This is a very good question.
Since God’s Will is that all should be saved, I don’t think that if is, “God’s wrath or choice for said person”, either that he be killed or that you or I be the one who brings about his death. Instead, God wishes for this person to be saved. To repent and go to heaven. This is also my desire.
No - if this person is killed or dies in sin, it is a consequence of his own evil choices. Death comes unexpectedly. This is just as true if he is killed by a homeowner, in a gang shootout, running from the police, or OD’d in an alley.
The thing is that I cannot control the intruder, and the decisions he makes any more than God does. I can only deal with and be responsible for the decisions that I make. In this I have spent much time with God talking about it.
Calgar said:
I’m in complete agreement with you. I’m military and quite comfortable with the fact that I could be called home rather quickly while on the job.

But when it comes to home defense, and such, I have a wife and two children that God has seen fit to put under my care.
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Indeed…especially having children can place a whole different outlook on the matter. All of our children are grown. It’s just my wife and I, and she is not well - terminally not well - to the point that I would rather hide and allow someone to rob us than risk her or myself by the use of deadly force. If I shot someone and became heavily involved in the legal system - If I had to spend time in jail etc…Who would take care of her?? (She has Alzheimer’s) and who would pay for that care?

On the other hand, if she and I were killed, I am confident that we would be saved - though we both would be serving time in purgatory - and then, when we left purgatory, I would have my beautiful lady back with me fully restored to herself, smart, witty, loving, strong…not this shell that I live with now that hides and covers this wonderful soul and child of God.

But I can see how a person with small children could see things differently. 👍

I do agree with the OP, Rand, that this has been a very good thread and raised some very good points in a most charitable manner. I’ve seen other similar threads that degenerated badly. This has been a really good one.

Peace
James
 
yellow8yellowM said:
You make it sound like the only choice is to kill the intruder or your family will die. There are many more choices.

If there is an intruder in your house and you cannot positively identify them, you can call the cops and/or wait in your bedroom with your guns loaded and the door locked.
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When seconds count, the police are minutes away.

abcnews.go.com/US/okla-woman-shoots-kills-intruder911-operators-shoot/story?id=15285605#.TyQY4YHc-ZY
A young Oklahoma mother shot and killed an intruder to protect her 3-month-old baby on New Year’s Eve, less than a week after the baby’s father died of cancer.
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Sarah McKinley says that a week earlier a man named Justin Martin dropped by on the day of her husband’s funeral, claiming that he was a neighbor who wanted to say hello. The 18-year-old Oklahoma City area woman did not let him into her home that day.
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On New Year’s Eve Martin returned with another man, Dustin Stewart, and this time was armed with a 12-inch hunting knife. The two soon began trying to break into McKinley’s home.
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“I can’t tell you that you can do that but you do what you have to do to protect your baby,” the dispatcher told her. McKinley was on the phone with 911 for a total of **21 minutes. **
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TheDoctor said:
That is an ignorant comment my brother. If one decides they do not have it in them to take a human life they know that they must invest in non-lethal methods (dog, alarm, dog, lights, dog, central station monitoring, dog, heavy duty locks, dog, window bars, dog, moving next to a police station, dog or getting a dog) to protect their family.

I apologize if I sounded harsh, but to intimate that not being able to take a human life means that you condone watching your family be raped and murdered did not sit well with me.
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"Move next to a police station?" Really? And you call my comment ignorant? Also, an armed criminal would shoot your dog dead in a second. I am not going to call your comment ignorant, but it did make me laugh out loud.
 
coachkfan1 said:
…an armed criminal would shoot your dog dead in a second…

Certainly a robber could be armed with a gun and could shoot the dog, or he might not be in which case the dog is an excellent idea. My brother’s family has owned a doberman ever since his house was broken into many years ago. I believe they are on their 3rd or 4th animal.

There are many possible scenarios here from heavily armed gangs to a sneak thief to a rapist to someone with a peculiar emergency in bad weather.

Perhaps the best solution is a combination of things.
  1. Don’t own a lot of expensive things.
  2. Don’t make your house look “inviting” to criminals.
    a) Keep shrubs low.
    b) Well lit outside.
    c) Light and/or radio on inside
  3. Encourage a neighborhood watch program.
  4. Look for good viable non-lethal options such as
    a) Alarms
    b) Dog
    c) Secure windows and doors
  5. Then, as a last line of defense, to be used ONLY in defense of your and your families person, a gun.
That is my take on the matter.

Peace
James
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Dogs are sometimes a good defense against burglars…the larger the better but burglars don’t like the noise either so a smaller dog is better than none if the burglar is actually bothered by them…some aren’t.
I have an inexpensive audio alarm in my master bedroom only. A burglar will always go there before he leaves. The alarm is not ear shattering but to a nervous burglar it is not an incentive to hang around…besides for all he knows the police have been notified.
Burglary is a daytime crime…almost always so if there is a knock at your door always let the person know that someone is home even if you don’t want to answer the door. A common MO for burgalrs is to knock loudly and if nobody answers they will force entry…commonly by forcing open the door with a body slam. Do not kid yourself…the door will not keep them out. Windows are another option but they are going to get in if they aren’t interupted.
Hide your smaller valuables…be innovative, especially if you are going on a trip. Rings and jewelry can go in food containers. Valuable papers should be hidden and firearms should be in a safe. You will NEVER get them back and there is always a sentimental attachment to one or all of them. One gun is worth more than you will pay for a safe at Costco and other valuables can be put in a safe as well. If you put the safe in your garage and cover it with the cardboard carton it came in it will go completely unnoticed by intruders.
A sign in a prominate place near the front door that says " Day sleeper…do not disturb " is a ruse I thought about when I was working grave yard shift…what do they know?
Do not depend on neighbors to watch your property…they seldom know what to look for and they are generally preoccupied anyway but it won’t hurt to ask them.
If you have a lot in your home and are a soft target I would advise a private alarm company with a good reputation…it is well worth it and it is a good way to keep burglars out. Burglary is a crime that has a lot of repurcussions that don’t involve just property. It scares your wife and kids who will not feel the same about their home.
Keep them out if you can.
Retired LAPD 1964-1989:)
 
FYI,

I go to Tanzania each year to work with the Catholic schools in one of the remote diocese there.

When I go to the furthest parishes, the one’s near the Rwandan border, the bishop send armed guards with me.

They are not police, nor military, but private citizens who legally carry arms.

The bishop equips them from his armory.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8404&d=1280577171

Can anyone really say that the bishop is acting contrary to the Church, or against Church morality?
 
Brendan said:
FYI,

I go to Tanzania each year to work with the Catholic schools in one of the remote diocese there.

When I go to the furthest parishes, the one’s near the Rwandan border, the bishop send armed guards with me.

They are not police, nor military, but private citizens who legally carry arms.

The bishop equips them from his armory.

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=8404&d=1280577171

Can anyone really say that the bishop is acting contrary to the Church, or against Church morality?
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Quite right sir, quite right. Awesome picture, BTW. Also, and with all due respect, I love your phrase “The bishop equips them from his armory.” I was just, like sweet! One bishop, I suspect, who does not have issues of liturgical abuse in his diocese!

EDIT: And if any of the Faithful are looking to purchase arms of quality, may I suggest a German-made SIG 9mm. I can honestly it is perhaps the finest handgun I’ve ever used: beautifully crafted, light, great control, and negligible recoil.
 
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