Catholics and Firearms

[Geist]

FYI,

I go to Tanzania each year to work with the Catholic schools in one of the remote diocese there.

When I go to the furthest parishes, the one’s near the Rwandan border, the bishop send armed guards with me.

They are not police, nor military, but private citizens who legally carry arms.

The bishop equips them from his armory.

The AK-47 Draco with folding stock…not a cheap gun. They run about $550.00 retail here.

They must be doing well, good for them.

I want one.

 

[Brendan]

The AK-47 Draco with folding stock…not a cheap gun. They run about $550.00 retail here.

They must be doing well, good for them.

I want one.

In Africa, or at least the northern half, getting an AK is not all that hard, nor that expensive.
The problem, of course, we be getting one past customs

They did show a lot of wear and tear, but were kept clean at least.

Tanzania was actually pretty safe, it was only because I was heading near the Rwanda border that the bishop provided the guards.

The bishop had a night guard in the Cathedral complex who was armed with a shotgun. That was to discourage thievery of the sacred vessels in the sacristy as well as the diocesan funds (as limited as they were)

Guards with AK’s were also regular fixtures at banks, for the same reason.

 

[JRKH]

Brandon,
Thanks for reminding me how lucky I am to live in the U.S.

Peace
James

 

[fbl9]

This is where for me it would be a toss up over owining a firearm for the sole purpose of home defense.

And on the other side, could the decision to own a firearm for home defense and having to shoot a person(s) be also God’s wrath or choice for said person(s)?

This is a very good question.
Since God’s Will is that all should be saved, I don’t think that if is, “God’s wrath or choice for said person”, either that he be killed or that you or I be the one who brings about his death. Instead, God wishes for this person to be saved. To repent and go to heaven. This is also my desire.
No - if this person is killed or dies in sin, it is a consequence of his own evil choices. Death comes unexpectedly. This is just as true if he is killed by a homeowner, in a gang shootout, running from the police, or OD’d in an alley.
The thing is that I cannot control the intruder, and the decisions he makes any more than God does. I can only deal with and be responsible for the decisions that I make. In this I have spent much time with God talking about it.

We don’t know the day or hour we may pass on, many of us do have the privialge of knowing when time is drawing nigh. some don’t.What i trying to get at is each one of us have only x days to live. The burglar that one just shot, well that was his xth day to live.Since it was this person’s xth day had he not been a burglar he could have easily fell off a ladder hanging up christmas lights.To bring about God’s plan that each person has an alotted time.

Hope this brings across what i tried to get at in the original post. Which, the first post, on pondering does seem a little too predestinational.

 

[JRKH]

We don’t know the day or hour we may pass on, many of us do have the privialge of knowing when time is drawing nigh. some don’t.What i trying to get at is each one of us have only x days to live. The burglar that one just shot, well that was his xth day to live.Since it was this person’s xth day had he not been a burglar he could have easily fell off a ladder hanging up christmas lights.To bring about God’s plan that each person has an alotted time.

Hope this brings across what i tried to get at in the original post. Which, the first post, on pondering does seem a little too predestinational.

No problem. I understood what you were trying to convey.

Someone else earlier had made the statement, in defense of shooting an intruder, that they did not want anyone in their family “dying before their time”…Which I thought was an interesting comment for who is to say when is someone’s time to die???

As I said, I cannot control the thief any more than I can control you. All I can do is make the best decision for me based on how God has enlightened me personally.

Peace
James

 

[StarFireKK]

Please don’t get a dog for the purpose of guarding your house, unless you are going to get a trained guard dog and take responsibility for that dog.

Most dogs are pets. Sure, they are protective and most will do everything they can to protect their family. But I’ve known several people who have had their dogs poisoned and stabbed by burglars.

You can be assured if someone broke into my house, I would be shoving my three dogs into the bedroom and grabbing the shotgun or AK-47 and take care of the problem myself. I have a better understanding of the situation and the dangers than they do and it is my job to protect them.

 

[Rand2410]

Please don’t get a dog for the purpose of guarding your house, unless you are going to get a trained guard dog and take responsibility for that dog.

Most dogs are pets. Sure, they are protective and most will do everything they can to protect their family. But I’ve known several people who have had their dogs poisoned and stabbed by burglars.

You can be assured if someone broke into my house, I would be shoving my three dogs into the bedroom and grabbing the shotgun or AK-47 and take care of the problem myself. I have a better understanding of the situation and the dangers than they do and it is my job to protect them.

I agree with you on this issue. I am allergic to dogs. I believe a combination of interior and exterior security lights, decorative metal security doors , possibility window bars, audible alarm system and a firearm will meet my security concerns.

 

[TheDoctor]

"Move next to a police station?" Really? And you call my comment ignorant? Also, an armed criminal would shoot your dog dead in a second. I am not going to call your comment ignorant, but it did make me laugh out loud.

I thought it obvious that the stuff in the parenthesis was exaggerated (how many times did I put “dog” in there?), sorry you did not get it. I am glad however that you found something humorous and I respectfully stand by what I said of your original comment.

By the way, while I would grieve over the loss of my buddy, my dog’s primary responsibility in home security is to hear/smell intruders before I do and alert me (which is why certain yippy ankle biters are wonderful watchdogs) to the situation so that I can take steps to secure my family and property. And oh, in a certain sense, I would thank the criminal because in that second they shoot my dog dead they would have clearly established their intent to do harm to my person or family making my response to them clear and decisive.

 

[Calgar]

Please don’t get a dog for the purpose of guarding your house, unless you are going to get a trained guard dog and take responsibility for that dog.

Most dogs are pets. Sure, they are protective and most will do everything they can to protect their family. But I’ve known several people who have had their dogs poisoned and stabbed by burglars.

You can be assured if someone broke into my house, I would be shoving my three dogs into the bedroom and grabbing the shotgun or AK-47 and take care of the problem myself. I have a better understanding of the situation and the dangers than they do and it is my job to protect them.

I don’t think they meant that the dog would protect them in the physical sense. I believe they meant that the dog barking would give them warning that someone was approaching the house.

 

[pismopal]

Please don’t get a dog for the purpose of guarding your house, unless you are going to get a trained guard dog and take responsibility for that dog.

Most dogs are pets. Sure, they are protective and most will do everything they can to protect their family. But I’ve known several people who have had their dogs poisoned and stabbed by burglars.

You can be assured if someone broke into my house, I would be shoving my three dogs into the bedroom and grabbing the shotgun or AK-47 and take care of the problem myself. I have a better understanding of the situation and the dangers than they do and it is my job to protect them.

You will not be there to grab a shotgun or anything else…you will be away from home and the burglar will make sure of that before he kicks down the door or crawls through a window. As I pointed out in my earlier post…residential burglary is a DAY TIME crime. Home invasion crimes usually involve drugs and/or recently immigrated ethnics who are known to have cash in the home. If you have a job or go to school your AK47 will just be on the list of stolen property…sadly.

 

[JRKH]

You will not be there to grab a shotgun or anything else…you will be away from home and the burglar will make sure of that before he kicks down the door or crawls through a window. As I pointed out in my earlier post…residential burglary is a DAY TIME crime. Home invasion crimes usually involve drugs and/or recently immigrated ethnics who are known to have cash in the home. If you have a job or go to school your AK47 will just be on the list of stolen property…sadly.

Good point…

The vast majority of thieves are not looking for a confrontation. They are looking for an easy mark - nobody home…In and out quickly. The last thing they are looking for is “complications” like a barking dog/awake, angry, and possibly armed homeowner.

Then there are those people who are NOT thieves and these are the more dangerous. Rapists, psychopaths, kidnappers, and (as another person pointed out) groups/gangs. These people are not striking to rob us of some material goods, but intend physical harm to the residents.

In all instances though - They look for easy marks. A gun hidden in the bedroom may be a good last resort, but then one needs to protect the gun as well.
The best thing to do is to be careful about your neighborhood, live quietly and without “flaunting” your “stuff” (wealth), and then do all of the other things outlined in this thread…Lighting, house alarm, security bars for windows and doors (if desired), keeping a dog. All of these are things that show from a distance, that this is a) not house likely to yield much “loot” and b) not an easy house to get into.

Peace
James

 

[Geist]

You will not be there to grab a shotgun or anything else…you will be away from home and the burglar will make sure of that before he kicks down the door or crawls through a window. As I pointed out in my earlier post…residential burglary is a DAY TIME crime. Home invasion crimes usually involve drugs and/or recently immigrated ethnics who are known to have cash in the home. If you have a job or go to school your AK47 will just be on the list of stolen property…sadly.

There was a rash of burglaries here, all day time. They may or may not have caught the ring responsible, the cops arent sure.

I work from home, so, if someone breaks in during the day, we’re going to meet. I have a loaded Makarov in my desk drawer and all the doors are alarmed and windows kept locked, so theyre not sneaking up on me.

Plus I live in a stand your ground state, so, it’d be an interesting meeting.

 

[pismopal]

There was a rash of burglaries here, all day time. They may or may not have caught the ring responsible, the cops arent sure.

I work from home, so, if someone breaks in during the day, we’re going to meet. I have a loaded Makarov in my desk drawer and all the doors are alarmed and windows kept locked, so theyre not sneaking up on me.

Plus I live in a stand your ground state, so, it’d be an interesting meeting.

I worked a surveillance unit full time. We tried to take cases with violent suspects first but sometimes we worked burglars and it is an eye opener. They seem to be unflappable. I watched one pass a home and he saw the residents working in the backyard…so he parked and walked in the unlocked front door and stole some cash off a dresser and out without their noticing. So much for alert neighbors…heck the owners couldn’t see him let alone neighbors. A gun is like a fire extinguisher…you might have one for years and never use it but when you need one you will be glad yu have it. Besides…you don’t have to kill just because you are armed. The presence of a gun in the hand of someone who is comfortable with it is a powerful deterent…and an invitation to leave which cannot be ignored.

 

[JRKH]

I worked a surveillance unit full time. We tried to take cases with violent suspects first but sometimes we worked burglars and it is an eye opener. They seem to be unflappable. I watched one pass a home and he saw the residents working in the backyard…so he parked and walked in the unlocked front door and stole some cash off a dresser and out without their noticing. So much for alert neighbors…heck the owners couldn’t see him let alone neighbors. A gun is like a fire extinguisher…you might have one for years and never use it but when you need one you will be glad yu have it. Besides…you don’t have to kill just because you are armed. The presence of a gun in the hand of someone who is comfortable with it is a powerful deterent…and an invitation to leave which cannot be ignored.

Of course if the gun were in the bedroom it might have been (likely) stolen too…

On the other hand, I wonder what the man would have done if, when he walked up to the front door, he found it locked???

Simple things can deter a crime…

Peace
James

 

[pismopal]

Of course if the gun were in the bedroom it might have been (likely) stolen too…

On the other hand, I wonder what the man would have done if, when he walked up to the front door, he found it locked???

Simple things can deter a crime…

Peace
James

If the door had been locked he would probably have just moved on but how many people lock their door when they are home? Some do some don’t. On the subject of residential burglary…if you are away at night on vacation and it is obvious that you aren’t home because of different clues…some burglars will give the door a loud knock and if there is no answer…in they go. This is relatively rare. And yes…if you keep a gun in your night stand and it is there in the day time…it will be gone along with any computer…gold…cash…TVs …anything of value that can be carried. They especially seem to like heirlooms that mean more in sentiment than real value. These are sick people in my opinion but that is another subject. Hide your home protection weapons when yu are gone. I carry mine and I don’t leave it in a glove box.

 

[jonbhorton]

You will not be there to grab a shotgun or anything else…you will be away from home and the burglar will make sure of that before he kicks down the door or crawls through a window. As I pointed out in my earlier post…residential burglary is a DAY TIME crime. Home invasion crimes usually involve drugs and/or recently immigrated ethnics who are known to have cash in the home. If you have a job or go to school your AK47 will just be on the list of stolen property…sadly.

This is a very California attitude and is sadly typical of defeatist LEO mentality, as it assumes the citizen too stupid to do what’s right for their plan of defense. I respect your service and experience, but you are jaded in light of the massive experience you have. Californian attitudes towards guns and self-protection are oppressive and defeat the entire purpose.

One who is not proactive in the entirety of their defense plan has no defense plan- including the defense/security of the arms which they keep to protect themselves.

Anyone can easily take 30 seconds at most to put their means of defense in the safe, r a safe location, if they can’t otherwise carry it on their person when they leave the house.

With this mentality, why own anything?

 

[ProVobis]

Just make sure that when you do move and your new neighbors come over to say hi that you don’t meet them at the door pointing a gun!

Good point. Threatening (or even playing with) someone at gunpoint is another matter and is not only anti-Catholic but illegal as well.

 

[pismopal]

This is a very California attitude and is sadly typical of defeatist LEO mentality, as it assumes the citizen too stupid to do what’s right for their plan of defense. I respect your service and experience, but you are jaded in light of the massive experience you have. Californian attitudes towards guns and self-protection are oppressive and defeat the entire purpose.

One who is not proactive in the entirety of their defense plan has no defense plan- including the defense/security of the arms which they keep to protect themselves.

Anyone can easily take 30 seconds at most to put their means of defense in the safe, r a safe location, if they can’t otherwise carry it on their person when they leave the house.

With this mentality, why own anything?

I am not assuming people are stupid but a lot of people including you seem to think that being armed is the answer to a lot of problems that being armed doesn’t help. You claim I am jaded? In what way am I jaded? How can you make silly assumptions about my attitude about firearms when I clearly encourage their possession and even made an analogy comparing them to a fire extinguisher? Don’t make the assumption that California LE managers have the same attitude as LEO in the field my friend…they are two different animals.
Now you tell me…please… how your gun is going to help protect your home when you are not there? I don’t think you actually read my posts…I read yours and it is not responsive to my expressed thoughts. Maybe you have gotten a lot of your knowledge from gun magazines…I got mine from 40 years of using them…responsibly and realistically. Guns cannot solve every problem but I believe that every American who is of age and not a felon has a right to use one…even if it is to make an *** out of themselves.

 

[jonbhorton]

I am not assuming people are stupid but a lot of people including you seem to think that being armed is the answer to a lot of problems that being armed doesn’t help. You claim I am jaded? In what way am I jaded? How can you make silly assumptions about my attitude about firearms when I clearly encourage their possession and even made an analogy comparing them to a fire extinguisher? Don’t make the assumption that California LE managers have the same attitude as LEO in the field my friend…they are two different animals.
Now you tell me…please… how your gun is going to help protect your home when you are not there? I don’t think you actually read my posts…I read yours and it is not responsive to my expressed thoughts. Maybe you have gotten a lot of your knowledge from gun magazines…I got mine from 40 years of using them…responsibly and realistically. Guns cannot solve every problem but I believe that every American who is of age and not a felon has a right to use one…even if it is to make an *** out of themselves.

So you “what if” based on particular circumstances related to your 40 years of experience, and having worked surveillance, thus coloring a single aspect of gun ownership, the reason for it, and how that pans out in the daily rubrics of said gun’s use and non-use? That’s pretty much jaded, Sir. You’re letting your own experiences color a specific instance which has: no bearing on the OP’s question nor takes into account preventative steps which keep the firearm off the stolen property list.

I don’t particularly disagree with the other general things you have said, but, that post in general I disagreed with. “I want a boat in case the levees break” vs “if you aren’t in a place to get to your boat and use it, it will just get stolen by opportunists when the levees break”. That’s sort of a “duh” statement and a consequence which is by definition indefensible at the juncture of its occurrence. However, preventative steps such as putting the boat in the backyard, locked chains on the trailer wheels, placing the trailer on blocks and putting the tires in the locked shed, etc. do not discount the desire of having a boat, nor does the possibility of theft, as statistically prevalent as it may be, negate the purchase or ownership.

By postulating the firearm would be stolen, you indicate that you do not feel that most people would take measures to do the smart thing and secure their firearms. If they’re not doing the smart thing, they’re doing the dumb thing which may or may not have consequence but is nonetheless dumb. That you make a generally sweeping statement regarding a specific “what if”, a what if which obvious is outside the ability to affect the reason for purchase, is narrow minded, though it is highly prudent to take your experience of the “what if” and integrate that into the way the firearm is stored and secured when away.

Good for you that you have 40 years of “using guns responsibly and realistically” … in California, as LEO, enforcing policies and stopping crime because of the consequence of an exponentially increasing nanny-state which imposes unrealistic expectations on the safety of its citizens via police forces. Police forces which have no obligation to protect, and who always make it there before the bad guy completes his heinous act. Get real, Sir. You have a cop approach to a situation which dictates no immediate or immediately-coming police presence.

Gun magazines? I haven’t purchased a gun magazine in literal years. Did I ever state guns solve all problems? Did I advocate shooting the stuck lids off jars? Turning out the light at night a la Mr. Bean? No.

Now, I may only be 28, have 2 tours, and a slew of LEO/Security/Contract/PSD/etc friends who agree with me, whose own combined experience and recommendations easily outweigh your singular view, but my goal is not to tout our respective C/V’s, but to approach the situation logically. I cannot logically expect a gun to pick itself up, shoot an intruder, and tell me all about it when I get home. So I put it in the safe. It takes 30 seconds at most. If can they steal the safe, I’ll gladly let some LEO with 40 years experience attempt to use his gun on them realistically and responsibly.

FWIW, I’m in a state where I don’t have to tuck tail and run like in Cali. I’ll stand my ground- realistically and responsibly. And if I’m not home, well, what if…

 

[pismopal]

So you “what if” based on particular circumstances related to your 40 years of experience, and having worked surveillance, thus coloring a single aspect of gun ownership, the reason for it, and how that pans out in the daily rubrics of said gun’s use and non-use? That’s pretty much jaded, Sir. You’re letting your own experiences color a specific instance which has: no bearing on the OP’s question nor takes into account preventative steps which keep the firearm off the stolen property list.

I don’t particularly disagree with the other general things you have said, but, that post in general I disagreed with. “I want a boat in case the levees break” vs “if you aren’t in a place to get to your boat and use it, it will just get stolen by opportunists when the levees break”. That’s sort of a “duh” statement and a consequence which is by definition indefensible at the juncture of its occurrence. However, preventative steps such as putting the boat in the backyard, locked chains on the trailer wheels, placing the trailer on blocks and putting the tires in the locked shed, etc. do not discount the desire of having a boat, nor does the possibility of theft, as statistically prevalent as it may be, negate the purchase or ownership.

By postulating the firearm would be stolen, you indicate that you do not feel that most people would take measures to do the smart thing and secure their firearms. If they’re not doing the smart thing, they’re doing the dumb thing which may or may not have consequence but is nonetheless dumb. That you make a generally sweeping statement regarding a specific “what if”, a what if which obvious is outside the ability to affect the reason for purchase, is narrow minded, though it is highly prudent to take your experience of the “what if” and integrate that into the way the firearm is stored and secured when away.

Good for you that you have 40 years of “using guns responsibly and realistically” … in California, as LEO, enforcing policies and stopping crime because of the consequence of an exponentially increasing nanny-state which imposes unrealistic expectations on the safety of its citizens via police forces. Police forces which have no obligation to protect, and who always make it there before the bad guy completes his heinous act. Get real, Sir. You have a cop approach to a situation which dictates no immediate or immediately-coming police presence.

Gun magazines? I haven’t purchased a gun magazine in literal years. Did I ever state guns solve all problems? Did I advocate shooting the stuck lids off jars? Turning out the light at night a la Mr. Bean? No.

Now, I may only be 28, have 2 tours, and a slew of LEO/Security/Contract/PSD/etc friends who agree with me, whose own combined experience and recommendations easily outweigh your singular view, but my goal is not to tout our respective C/V’s, but to approach the situation logically. I cannot logically expect a gun to pick itself up, shoot an intruder, and tell me all about it when I get home. So I put it in the safe. It takes 30 seconds at most. If can they steal the safe, I’ll gladly let some LEO with 40 years experience attempt to use his gun on them realistically and responsibly.

FWIW, I’m in a state where I don’t have to tuck tail and run like in Cali. I’ll stand my ground- realistically and responsibly. And if I’m not home, well, what if…

What I wrote …I wrote. It is my honest opinion for you to take or …just as well…to leave. I was hoping that I might be able to clear up a couple of common misconceptions but I think I was not counting on causing a controversy with another expert. I will simply put my tail between my legs and leave this alone by deferring to your enthusiastic disagreement. I should have warned you before you put so much energy into your post…I simply don’t care about philosophy…I simply know what I had to learn. Have a nice day!