Catholics and firearms

[CatholicTimmy]

Would you mind showing me the relevant section of the Constitution?Would you please give some examples?The purpose of a government is not to prevent us from possessing things, the purpose of government is protect our rights to life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness. How does my possession of a handgun infringe on your rights?In the US, you are required to have an extremely expensive license if you want to own an automatic weapon.And your point is what?

So you don’t think that someone shooting a person doesn’t take away their rights.

 

[CatholicTimmy]

And your point is what?

Really? We are supposed to live a Christ-like life. And i personally don’t see how owning a gun fits into it.

 

[jwinch2]

So you don’t think that someone shooting a person doesn’t take away their rights.

Total straw-man argument. No one is advocating going around shooting people and you know it. The only time anyone here would condone shooting someone is if their life or that of their family or other innocents was in danger. In that situation, the Church teaches that we are well within our moral rights to defend ourselves and others, to the point of taking a life if the situation is dire enough to warrant it.

But none of that is what you are talking about. You advocate taking away guns from people who have done nothing at all with them, let alone something wrong. So, I will repeat the question, how does anyone else having a gun take infringe upon your rights?

 

[Cristiano]

Really? We are supposed to live a Christ-like life.** And i personally don’t see how owning a gun fits into it**.

Well that is your limitation, just because you do not see it it does not make it wrong. Christ did not drink water from a City purifying system, should we stop doing that? Maybe your idea of living a Christ-like manner needs more development, I know that often I am not sure of what living like Christ really implies. Christ gave the Church the power to bind and to loose and so I refer to the CCC and to the bishops to have a better grasp, and I see Bishops that own firearms.

 

[jwinch2]

Really? We are supposed to live a Christ-like life. And i personally don’t see how owning a gun fits into it.

Someone might want to let the Holy Father know so that he can tell the Swiss Guard to stop carrying all those guns around every time he goes outside. Until then, if the Vicar of Christ can morally use guns to defend his life and limb, so can we.

https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/i...WL_BCFXOZYo16tvDLfhlQQbhIVpklsruVYsD0y__Cq0HQ

 

[TimothyH]

You are actually attempting to equate justified warfare with senseless civil violence??? You try to do that and then brush off “Hollywood” as having no influence on the gun violence in inner cities? I am sorry but I am going to let the readers be the judge of our relative cases and move on to a fruitful discussion somewhere else. Have a nice day

You are arguing with something I did not say.

I didn’t say that Hollywood had no influence. Nor did I brush off Hollywood. That’s not what I said. Those words were not in my post. I said no such thing. I didn’t say that Hollywood had no influence. The words are not there.

Nor did I equate sensless violence with jusified war. The words are not in my post. That is not what I said. Those words or anything that means that are not in my post.

You are disagreeing with something that never happened.

-Tim-

 

[pete_29]

Really? We are supposed to live a Christ-like life. And i personally don’t see how owning a gun fits into it.

I’ll make a deal with you Timmy or anyone else who wants to ban guns. If you go to Chicago and disarm the gangs, I’ll get rid of my guns.

 

[Buck_Crosswhite]

George Washington said we need guns to defend ourselves against the government. I agree with him. The people in government who want to take our guns also want to make us slaves.

 

[white_sheep]

Really? We are supposed to live a Christ-like life. And i personally don’t see how owning a gun fits into it.

Guns are more multi-purpose than swords which are almost exclusively for killing. Christ told his followers to arm themselves with swords.

 

[TimothyH]

I’ll make a deal with you Timmy or anyone else who wants to ban guns. If you go to Chicago and disarm the gangs, I’ll get rid of my guns.

No one said they want to ban guns. That was not said. No one said that. It didn’t happen. Those words are not here. No one is telling you to get rid of your guns. That is not what was said.

Out of all sixteen pages of this thread, only one person said they thought gun ownership was fine but supported reinstatement of the ban on assault rifles. Other than that, the gun owners are the ones talking about banning guns. No one else is talking about banning guns.

The word “Ban” or the phrase “Ban guns” or “Gun ban” is not present here, nor is the idea, other than from gun owners themselves. jwinch2 is the one going on and on about banning guns.

People who don’t want to own guns have said nothing about banning guns yet gun owners want to argue with them about their desire to ban guns.

Every time someone questions the wisdom of gun ownership or says that they personally don’t want to own a gun, gun owners freak out and start accusing everyone of wanting to take away their guns. I wish it would stop becuase no one here said that.

Yet again, an argument against something that never happened.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes it explicitly clear that we have the right and indeed, the moral obligation to defend ourselves and the ones we love or even other innocents who may be in peril.

Where please?

Where does the catechsim state that I have the moral obligation to defend innocent people, my family, or even myself with weapons or my fists or other violent means?

Can you show me where it says that, because I have not seen it. Someone gave a reference to specific paragraphs which supposedly said that, but when I looked it wasn’t there.

Can you tell me where it is? If it is there then I will stand corrected.

-Tim-

 

[jwinch2]

The word “Ban” or the phrase “Ban guns” or “Gun ban” is not present here, nor is the idea, other than from gun owners themselves. jwinch2 is the one going on and on about banning guns.

Not true Tim. The word “ban” is irrelevant. People can say that they don’t think you should be able to have guns without using that word.

Here is an example.

I voted that they should be illegal, I see no reason that in America someone should be allowed to own a gun.

One can also look the results of the poll where approx. 8% of the people who voted claim they feel that guns should be illegal.

In addition, we have people suggesting that one cannot be a good Christian if they carry a gun.

Really? We are supposed to live a Christ-like life. And i personally don’t see how owning a gun fits into it.

 

[jwinch2]

Where please?

Where does the catechsim state that I have the moral obligation to defend innocent people, my family, or even myself with weapons or my fists or other violent means?

Can you show me where it says that, because I have not seen it. Someone gave a reference to specific paragraphs which supposedly said that, but when I looked it wasn’t there.

Can you tell me where it is? If it is there then I will stand corrected.

-Tim-

Legitimate defense

2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one’s own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

• If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

This has been interpreted consistently to mean that a person has the right and indeed the moral obligation of defending his/her family.

newadvent.org/cathen/13691a.htm

 

[jwinch2]

From Evangelium Vitae

Moreover, “legitimate defence can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the State”.44 Unfortunately it happens that the need to render the aggressor incapable of causing harm sometimes involves taking his life. In this case, the fatal outcome is attributable to the aggressor whose action brought it about, even though he may not be morally responsible because of a lack of the use of reason. 45

 

[CatholicTimmy]

Do I think that guns are going to be made illegal no, I am just saying that would be in a perfect world. There should be serious limits on gun ownership, including number and size of guns. All I said is I don’t understand is how owning and using a gun is being christlike, and I think that is a fair statement. Jesus clearly opposed violence. Was he a pacifist? I don’t know, but I know that even though the Church allows for self defense, I could not personally kill a human being.

Guns are more multi-purpose than swords which are almost exclusively for killing. Christ told his followers to arm themselves with swords.

You’re right, guns are very multi-purpose, you can use guns to kill criminals, or kill innocent people, or kill animals for hunting, or kill endangered animals, or target shooting to practice killing something. What possible other purpose do guns have than killing, that is what they are for. They are absolutely the worst invention in history.

I don’t think Christ literally meant for them to go out and buy swords, And what did he say when someone used a sword? “'Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.’” and 'But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” That is pretty clear to me that Jesus did not advocate sword use, and I am fairly sure Jesus would not say to go out and load your house with 20 machine guns incase someone tries to break in.

 

[scipio337]

Do I think that guns are going to be made illegal no, I am just saying that would be in a perfect world. There should be serious limits on gun ownership, including number and size of guns. All I said is I don’t understand is how owning and using a gun is being christlike, and I think that is a fair statement. Jesus clearly opposed violence. Was he a pacifist? I don’t know, but I know that even though the Church allows for self defense, I could not personally kill a human being.

You’re right, guns are very multi-purpose, you can use guns to kill criminals, or kill innocent people, or kill animals for hunting, or kill endangered animals, or target shooting to practice killing something. What possible other purpose do guns have than killing, that is what they are for. They are absolutely the worst invention in history.

I don’t think Christ literally meant for them to go out and buy swords, And what did he say when someone used a sword? “'Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.’” and 'But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” That is pretty clear to me that Jesus did not advocate sword use, and I am fairly sure Jesus would not say to go out and load your house with 20 machine guns incase someone tries to break in.

So if you target shoot, you’re “target shooting to practice killing something”? This is ridiculous. I suppose you’ve never seen Olympic or cowboy shooting competitions? It has nothing to do with killing at all. Its a developed skill, and a recognized sport.

Jesus didn’t advocate sword use because Peter was acting out of vengeance. Self defense is not vengeance. Christ’s life wasn’t immediately in danger at that time, and because doing so would would have blocked God’s purpose: “Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?” and

"Do you think that I cannot call upon my Father and he will not provide me at this moment with more than twelve legions of angels? But then how would the scriptures be fulfilled which say that it must come to pass in this way?” in Matthew.

Also, please note that Christ didn’t rebuke Peter for carrying a sword, or tell him to get rid of it altogether. It was due to that particular set of circumstances.

Christ actually tells the apostles to carry a sword in their ministry:
Luke 22:36:

He said to them,* “But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.

A related, and even broader concept, is found in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Christ had referred to the Old Testament summary of all the laws of the Bible into two great commandments: “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and your neighbor as yourself’” (Luke 10:27).

When asked “who was a neighbor”, Christ related the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:30-37). It was the Good Samaritan who took care of the mugging victim who was a neighbor to the victim. The others who walked by and ignored the victim’s plight were not acting as neighbors to him.

In the light of all we have seen the Scriptures teach to this point, can we argue that if we were able to save another’s life from an attacker by shooting the attacker with our gun, or that we should “turn the other cheek instead?” The Bible and Catechism speaks of no such right. It only speaks of our responsibilities in the face of an attack – as individual creatures made by God, as householders or as neighbors.

Furthermore, in light of the Catechism, if killing in self defense does not institute “murder” and is legimate “even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow” what are we to “deal…a lethal blow” with? Spitballs?

 

[10gr8kids]

Where please?

Where does the catechsim state that I have the moral obligation to defend innocent people, my family, or even myself with weapons or my fists or other violent means?

Can you show me where it says that, because I have not seen it. Someone gave a reference to specific paragraphs which supposedly said that, but when I looked it wasn’t there.

Can you tell me where it is? If it is there then I will stand corrected.

-Tim-

Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another’s life, the common good of the family or of the state.

 

[TimothyH]

From Evangelium Vitae

OK, so I stand corrected. We have a moral obligation to defend the innocent. I see that.

That does not however, equate to a requirement that any one of us own a gun, or a knife, or to clench my fist in anger.

Everything I read from the Church on the topic speaks of moderation and restraint and the one thing I learned from taking martial arts classes in my youth was that it is always better to walk away than it is to fight. There is a point where it has to stop.

The gang has a gun so I get a gun. They get a better gun so I get a better gun. They get a bigger gun and so I get two guns and learn how to shoot with both hands. Then we get sub-machine guns. Now there are TV shows where women build guns that look like they came out of a Terminator movie and they build fantastic scenarios where some guy blows away two dozen mannequin “Bad guys”.

A society which glorifies weaponry and produces TV shows where people build bomb proof bunkers to protect their big screen TV seems to me to exhibit a fundamental lack of trust in God’s providence and I want to ask when we, as members of Christ’s Church, when do we stand down? When do we stop blaming Hollywood for violence and take the “Insured by Smith and Wesson” bumper sticker off our car? When do we say “Enough! I will not escalate this.”?

I’ll tell you something here that I never told anyone else. I pointed a gun at someone once. I pointed a gun at a guy at the end of my driveway and told him that if he took one more F-ing step I would pull the F-ing trigger. The whole time I was standing there with the gun pointed at him, a voice inside of me kept saying, “Don’t do this. The last thing in your life you need is to kill someone.” That was the voice of God.

It turns out the guy was drunk. I got rid of the gun the next day with the words of my father, a US Marine, ringing in my ears, “You want to own a gun? Who are you going to shoot?”

I answer now, nobody. I’m going to shoot nobody. And I won’t have to stand before Jesus and explain why I shot someone.

-Tim-

 

[andrewstx]

I would and could never own a firearm. You see I have Parkinson’s, I would be as likely to shoot myself in the foot as harma burglar.

One thing I never hear from NRA members and other gun supporters at all costs, is that the 2nd amendment speaks first of militias. But they completely ignore that part.

 

[scipio337]

OK, so I stand corrected. We have a moral obligation to defend the innocent. I see that.

That does not however, equate to a requirement that any one of us own a gun, or a knife, or to clench my fist in anger.

Everything I read from the Church on the topic speaks of moderation and restraint and the one thing I learned from taking martial arts classes in my youth was that it is always better to walk away than it is to fight…

…-Tim-

Tim, this is the same thing they will tell you at any CCW class. It’s a lot like a martial art in that respect: It can be done for sport, or for protection, but always as a very last resort.

In your case with the person on your driveway, I would have stayed inside of the house and called the police. It’s not until threatened with bodily harm that any responsible gun owner would brandish a weapon.

I know in that case, I wouldn’t have to explain to Jesus why I shot someone. He would already know. To defend my life or the ones I love, as is my responsibility.