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KathleenGee
Guest
Great remark, Cheezy.
Catholics worship the Lord alone…how can they worship the statues they create?..they beautify the Church and recall the living communion with the angels and saints that we have with those who are in heaven.
But to take a piece of marble and start worshipping it is ridiculous.
Catholics worship the Lord alone…how can they worship the statues they create?..they beautify the Church and recall the living communion with the angels and saints that we have with those who are in heaven.
But to take a piece of marble and start worshipping it is ridiculous.
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TimothyH
Guest
We are allowed to have images of God because of Jesus.
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15)
Christ himself is an image and so we can have images.
-Tim0
He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15)
Christ himself is an image and so we can have images.
-Tim0
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cmodrmac
Guest
some of our Churches have the Crucifix( as opposed to the Cross alone) and our Church St. John’s has an eagle the symbol of the Evangelist-I do not see any issue with it–it is stunning that there is an argument over what the 10 commandments are
I often wonder what would happen if the rector put up a statue of for example St. Joseph -I can imagine the members of the “Daughters of the King” getting agitated-we are Episcopal however that is likely as far as it would go
I often wonder what would happen if the rector put up a statue of for example St. Joseph -I can imagine the members of the “Daughters of the King” getting agitated-we are Episcopal however that is likely as far as it would go
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cmodrmac
Guest
Actually we do have a Statue of Mary in out meditation garden and St. Francis in another Garden
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KathleenGee
Guest
Timothy …you said it in a nutshell…
Alot of times we have scruples. Martin Luther had his. I see it continuing on down through the ages.
But we forget that Christ is the means through which the universe was created. It is Christ Who has given form to all of God’s creation, including ours. We die to Him, He lives through us…we cannot take our life back from Him. And we are now part of His body, and we are united through His body.
And there is a big difference being a polytheistic pagan vs simply being a human being who worships the Lord by celebrating His creation in thankgiving.
Alot of times we have scruples. Martin Luther had his. I see it continuing on down through the ages.
But we forget that Christ is the means through which the universe was created. It is Christ Who has given form to all of God’s creation, including ours. We die to Him, He lives through us…we cannot take our life back from Him. And we are now part of His body, and we are united through His body.
And there is a big difference being a polytheistic pagan vs simply being a human being who worships the Lord by celebrating His creation in thankgiving.
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ComplineSanFran
Guest
There are many versions of the 10 Commandments, but I also prefer to go back to the original ones in the Torah, from Exodus 20. You may recall that both Jews and Muslims do not use any images in their holy spaces or texts.
Let me try and copy a helpful chart to show the differences. (It’s not pasting very well. Sorry. But perhaps you can follow it.)
Which Ten Commandments?
Protestant - a
Catholic -b
Hebrew - c
1a. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
1b. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
1c. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
2.a. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
2b. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
2.c. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.
3a. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
3b. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
3c. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.
4a. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
4b. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
4c. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath in honour of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.
5.a. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
5b. Thou shalt not kill.
5c. Honour thy father and thy mother; in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
6a. Thou shalt not kill.
6b. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
6c. Thou shalt not kill.
7a. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7b. Thou shalt not steal.
7c. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8a. Thou shalt not steal.
8b. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
8c. Thou shalt not steal.
9a. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9b. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife.
9c. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
10a. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbor’s.
10b. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods.
10c. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
King James Bible, issued by the American Bible Society.
Catholic Catechism by Peter Cardinal Gasparri, “published with Ecclesiastical approval” and bearing the imprimatur of Patrick Cardinal Hayes, Archbishop, New York. P. J. Kenedy & Sons, 1932.
Bloch Publishing Company, New York, 1922.
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cheezey
Guest
I have never understood where this came from, either. When I was younger and curious about this, all I could of was, as now;
Didn’t the natives on Gilligan’s Island bow to wooden gods? It was silly. When this subject comes up, it reminds me of the silly natives.
(I am also reminded of the “jails” in which the natives would imprison the gang; it had no fourth “wall.” Why didn’t they just turn around and leave? But I digress…)
No one bows to “things.” This includes marble. That was SOO funny…
Didn’t the natives on Gilligan’s Island bow to wooden gods? It was silly. When this subject comes up, it reminds me of the silly natives.
(I am also reminded of the “jails” in which the natives would imprison the gang; it had no fourth “wall.” Why didn’t they just turn around and leave? But I digress…)
No one bows to “things.” This includes marble. That was SOO funny…
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IGotQuestions
Guest
Thank you for your answers. I’m sorry I have not been able to respond in a timely manner.
Many great responses, it clears up many questions.
Many great responses, it clears up many questions.
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LPS
Guest
MKBorders, someone else commented about context and I think as we reason through this topic, we can see where that is important - is it the images themselves, or worshipping them as gods that is wrong? The golden calf in Exodus was worshipped as a god:
So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron.
He received their offering, and fashioning it with a tool, made a molten calf. Then they cried out, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up from the land of Egypt.” (Exodus 32:3-4)
More than this point, I would direct you to descriptions of the temple. God gave the exact design to David and Solomon had it built precisely to God’s specifications. Note that it is FILLED with “graven images,” from the oxen that hold the basin to pomegranates, lilies, cherubim, lions, palm trees. You will find rich descriptions here and 2 Chronicles, chapters 3 and 4.
This tells me that the images themselves are not sinful. I believe the issue is whether we view them as a tool that points us toward God … or whether we replace God with them as if they themselves were gods.
God bless you … keep seeking!
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jpltanis
Guest
Have you consider Exodus 25:18-21. When God command the making of the Ark of God? Notice that God himself commanded the making of the cherubims to sit on top of the Ark. Did God contradict his own command? or is it possible that your interpretation may be incorrect?
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JustaServant
Guest
I remember a fellow once who described a service at a KJV-only fundamentalist church. He witnessed a liturgical-like procession to the pulpit holding the KJV high in the air while someone loudly proclaimed “Behold the the stone cut out without hands” (citing Daniel) pointing to the KJV Bible.
This was a clear case in which the Bible itself was used as an idol.
This was a clear case in which the Bible itself was used as an idol.
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IGotQuestions
Guest
Why do Catholics kneel before statues?
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dmar198
Guest
Because the honor shown before the image passes to the person it portrays. Tertullian explained this very early in Church history: “No man will love the picture of his wife without taking care of it, and honoring it and crowning it. The likeness partakes with the reality in the privileged honor.” “[And] no honor is to be attributed to the image of anything which is itself unworthy of honor. As the natural state is, so will the likeness be.” (Against Marcion Book V Chapter 18, Book III Chapter 10)
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Crown_of_Stars
Guest
The statues of Mary seem to be what most who hate Catholics and think we are evil hate us for. The difference between the statue of Her and the graven image pagan gods is that the statue represents Her, while the stone or wood or gold idols were believed to truly be the god. I’ve been reading so many novels on ancient Egypt, and it’s very interesting. They truly thought the wooden or stone eyes were able to see their worshipers, their wooden or stone ears to hear. Also, we don’t worship Mary. We just have an extreme respect for Her, and we regard Her as the Mother of God, because God Himself has chosen Her for this role.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Aren’t most Bibles since 1550 reverse images of engraved letters? And since the 60s, images reprinted by laser printers? Unless you know a scribe hand copying an image, as in pre-printing press, why are these two images allowed for the strict intrepretationalist crowd?
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campeador
Guest
I’m reminded of how extreme this belief was among some Protestant groups in 19th century America:
Fremont carved a large cross into the rock monolith, which was blasted off the rock on July 4, 1847 by some among hundreds of California and Oregon emigrants who had gathered on the site. Some Protestants considered the cross Fremont carved to be a symbol of the Pope and Catholicism. John Frémont was actually a member of the United States Episcopal Church.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Rock_(Wyoming
Fremont carved a large cross into the rock monolith, which was blasted off the rock on July 4, 1847 by some among hundreds of California and Oregon emigrants who had gathered on the site. Some Protestants considered the cross Fremont carved to be a symbol of the Pope and Catholicism. John Frémont was actually a member of the United States Episcopal Church.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Rock_(Wyoming
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Dave_Noonan
Guest
Lutherans do not have 2a. Protestant numbering and content varies widely.
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Graceful_Lamb
Guest
Catholic and non-Catholic Commandments? Really? I always thought there was one set for everyone. Learn something new everyday!
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SyroMalankara
Guest
Interesting, a pre-cursory ‘christian’ group with the behavior of the Taliban and ISIS
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