Catholics and Graven Images

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Starwarsfan2 said:
To far , there is no comparison between the two.
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There is some. ISIS explodes historic sites they believe to be idolatrous. The Taliban did the same to millenia old Buddhist statues for the same ideology.

So, there is some comparison between them.
 
There is a difference between having a statue in your church as a piece of art just to look at and actual veneration which is not much different from worship. Even the pagan idolaters know that the statue is not their god but is a representation of their god.
 
IGotQuestions said:
Why do Catholics have statues and images in their churches when the Ten Commandments strictly forbid it?
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In Exodus 20, God forbids the making of graven images.

In Exodus 25, 1 Kings 6 and elsewhere, God commands the making of graven images.

So…either God is very confused (which He is not)…or there is an interpretation problem and the making of images isn’t an issue…only worshiping them as deities is. Since Catholics (and others) do not attribute divinity to the statues and images…there is no problem.
 
JohnGerard said:
In Exodus 20, God forbids the making of graven images.

In Exodus 25, 1 Kings 6 and elsewhere, God commands the making of graven images.

So…either God is very confused (which He is not)…or there is an interpretation problem and the making of images isn’t an issue…only worshiping them as deities is. Since Catholics (and others) do not attribute divinity to the statues and images…there is no problem.
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Yep , so don’t be the people who smash images .😉
 
leekonghian said:
There is a difference between having a statue in your church as a piece of art just to look at and actual veneration which is not much different from worship. Even the pagan idolaters know that the statue is not their god but is a representation of their god.
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I disagree.

Veneration is way different than worship.

Worship acknowledges divinity. Veneration doesn’t. That’s a huge difference, I would say.

If the pagans thought that their statue represented their god, I don’t see how it follows that ANY statue now means that the person thinks that a god is being represented. C’mon, really? If I have a St. Joseph statue that must mean that I think St. Joseph is God? Not to be offensive, but that really is quite ridiculous.

Veneration is like honor:

Romans 12:10 …“love one another with brotherly affection; outdo one another in showing honor…”

1 Timothy 5:17: “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor…”

1 Peter 2:17 : “Honor all men…”

We are told to love and honor others. Since death doesn’t disconnect Christians from the Body of Christ (Romans 8), our love and honor for others isn’t limited to those living on the Earth.

This is way different than worship, though, because nobody (at least nobody that I know of) attributes divinity to anyone other than the persons of the Holy Trinity.
 
Humans are sensual beings. We use statues and pictures to help direct our thoughts and hearts to prayer. This in conjunction with incense, candles etc. all help us focus on prayer
 
Joshua, together with the elders of Israel, rent his garments and lay prostrate before the ark of the LORD until evening; and they threw dust on their heads.
“Alas, O Lord GOD,” Joshua prayed, "why did you ever allow this people to pass over the Jordan, delivering us into the power of the Amorites, that they might destroy us? Would that we had been content to dwell on the other side of the Jordan. - Joshua 7:6-7
 
IGotQuestions said:
Why do Catholics have statues and images in their churches when the Ten Commandments strictly forbid it?
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Where, exactly, does the Ten Commandments forbid statues, and if it does, why did God command Moses to break it?
 
If those who believe that images are against God, then I hope they don’t have any money in their homes or use money for any reason as they all have images of a man (president) on them. Actually I have seen people kiss dollars if they win while betting or buying lotto tickets.

I think if they would believe what some are saying, they would understand that they also have images and many protestants and Catholics too worship money, so I guess money is their God.

Also every protestant who believes this that I know have images all over their home, i.e. angels, statues of small children, dogs etc. They also have pictures of their loved ones and some ever take the pictures of one who has died and kiss the picture as they remember their mother, father, child or another loved one.

I don’t know any Catholics that believe a picture (image) or statue is a God.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
IGotQuestions said:
Why do Catholics kneel before statues?
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As a sign of honor. In Scripture we can see kneeling and bowing several times as a sign of honor and not worship. Abraham bowed to the angels, Israelites to the Ark, Joseph’s brothers bowed to Joseph, people bowed before David, Moses to his father-in-law, etc.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
There are many versions of the 10 Commandments, but I also prefer to go back to the original ones in the Torah, from Exodus 20. You may recall that both Jews and Muslims do not use any images in their holy spaces or texts.

Let me try and copy a helpful chart to show the differences. (It’s not pasting very well. Sorry. But perhaps you can follow it.)

Which Ten Commandments?

Protestant - a
Catholic -b
Hebrew - c

1a. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

1b. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

1c. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

2.a. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

2b. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

2.c. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

3a. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

3b. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

3c. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4a. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4b. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

4c. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the Sabbath in honour of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5.a. Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

5b. Thou shalt not kill.

5c. Honour thy father and thy mother; in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6a. Thou shalt not kill.

6b. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

6c. Thou shalt not kill.

7a. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

7b. Thou shalt not steal.

7c. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8a. Thou shalt not steal.

8b. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

8c. Thou shalt not steal.

9a. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9b. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife.

9c. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10a. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbor’s.

10b. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods.

10c. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

King James Bible, issued by the American Bible Society.
Catholic Catechism by Peter Cardinal Gasparri, “published with Ecclesiastical approval” and bearing the imprimatur of Patrick Cardinal Hayes, Archbishop, New York. P. J. Kenedy & Sons, 1932.
Bloch Publishing Company, New York, 1922.
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With due respect, another example of the worthlessness of the term protestant.
The Lutheran numbering
bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php#tencommandments

Jon
 
leekonghian said:
There is a difference between having a statue in your church as a piece of art just to look at and actual veneration which is not much different from worship. Even the pagan idolaters know that the statue is not their god but is a representation of their god.
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There is a difference between worship of God and a symbol. No Catholic worships the symbol ie. Statues, beads, images, crosses, crucifix, etc. These are not worshipped, and are not graven idols. Not even the Pope is worshipped.
 
leekonghian said:
There is a difference between having a statue in your church as a piece of art just to look at and actual veneration which is not much different from worship. Even the pagan idolaters know that the statue is not their god but is a representation of their god.
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So, am I to understand that you believe pagans know their statues are not the actual god, but you are not convinced that our Catholic and Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran Christian siblings know the difference?

I think it absolutely obvious that Catholics know that a statue of the Blessed Virgin is not Mary herself. They know that a crucifix is not Jesus Himself. They know the difference between veneration (Mary) and worship (Christ), even if you are not sure what the difference is.

I see no point in expecting Catholics to defend a practice they do not have. If we are to disagree with our Catholic siblings, let’s make sure its on something they actually believe.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
So, am I to understand that you believe pagans know their statues are not the actual god, but you are not convinced that our Catholic and Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran Christian siblings know the difference?

I think it absolutely obvious that Catholics know that a statue of the Blessed Virgin is not Mary herself. They know that a crucifix is not Jesus Himself. They know the difference between veneration (Mary) and worship (Christ), even if you are not sure what the difference is.

I see no point in expecting Catholics to defend a practice they do not have. If we are to disagree with our Catholic siblings, let’s make sure its on something they actually believe.

Jon
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👍 Good to hear you say this.
 
leekonghian said:
There is a difference between having a statue in your church as a piece of art just to look at and actual veneration which is not much different from worship. Even the pagan idolaters know that the statue is not their god but is a representation of their god.
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We venerate or honor what it represents, which was a real person. I look at statues as being art, no different than a picture or painting. Don’t overlook one important thing, God is a reader of hearts and minds.
 
JMM1957 said:
We venerate or honor what it represents, which was a real person. I look at statues as being art, no different than a picture or painting. Don’t overlook one important thing, God is a reader of hearts and minds.
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This is right out of St. John of Damascus, so you are in great company. 🙂

*I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation. I venerate it, though not as God. How could God be born out of lifeless things? And if God’s body is God by union, it is immutable. The nature of God remains the same as before, the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul.

I honour all matter besides, and venerate it. Through it, filled, as it were, me. Was not the with a divine power and grace, my salvation has come to thrice happy and thrice blessed wood of the Cross matter? Was not the sacred and holy mountain of Calvary matter? What of the life-giving rock, the Holy Sepulchre, the source of our resurrection: was it not matter? Is not the most holy book of the Gospels matter? Is not the blessed table matter which gives us the Bread of Life’ Are not the gold and silver matter, out of which crosses and altar-plate and chalices are made? And before all these things, is not the body and blood of our Lord matter? Either do away with the veneration and worship due to all these things, or submit to the tradition of the Church in the worship of images, honouring God and His friends, and following in this the grace of the Holv Spirit.*

Source
 
I know this subject has been beaten to death but…

I was taught, in Catholic school, and my understanding from reading the Bible, that God was present in the Ark of the Covenant.

That it’s a tabernacle. People weren’t bowing to the cherubs, they were bowing to the actual presence of God. The cherubs were put there to remind people that God was literally present.

That seems considerably different than making a freestanding statue of a person and venerating it. Which is basically clearly forbidden, outright stated by God himself.

The argument that some people kiss a photo of their mom is neither here nor there, God said not to make images and bow before them. Maybe the people kissing the picture of their mom are wrong too. And likely, given the habits of the pagans in that area, statues in general were forbidden.

God doesn’t need to explain himself to people and reason with them as to whether or not a particular loop hole makes it OK because they think it should. He said not to carve statues and bow before them. How much clearer could He have put it. And that’s quite different from carving images of pomegranates on pillars for decoration.

Same with Christmas trees…the Bible says not to bring trees into the house and decorate them. Period, the argument that people aren’t worshipping the tree, or the person that the statue represents, is immaterial. God said don’t do it.
 
leekonghian said:
There is a difference between having a statue in your church as a piece of art just to look at and actual veneration which is not much different from worship. Even the pagan idolaters know that the statue is not their god but is a representation of their god.
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Did not the cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant have a religious purpose? Where they only there because they were ‘nice to look at’?
 
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