Catholics and Graven Images

[KjetilK]

That seems considerably different than making a freestanding statue of a person and venerating it. Which is basically clearly forbidden, outright stated by God himself.

Where?

 

[Michael68]

The KJ version forbids the making “of graven images, neither of things here on earth or heaven above”. Why is there a distinction between Catholic and Protestant commandments? Where did this come from? how does the Catholic Church support it’s version of the commandments? Pleased to have some help here as I have converted to Catholisim but still working through some of the issues.

The Bible, which is Catholic, came way before the KJV

 

[Michael68]

I know this subject has been beaten to death but…

I was taught, in Catholic school, and my understanding from reading the Bible, that God was present in the Ark of the Covenant.

That it’s a tabernacle. People weren’t bowing to the cherubs, they were bowing to the actual presence of God. The cherubs were put there to remind people that God was literally present.

That seems considerably different than making a freestanding statue of a person and venerating it. Which is basically clearly forbidden, outright stated by God himself.

The argument that some people kiss a photo of their mom is neither here nor there, God said not to make images and bow before them. Maybe the people kissing the picture of their mom are wrong too. And likely, given the habits of the pagans in that area, statues in general were forbidden.

God doesn’t need to explain himself to people and reason with them as to whether or not a particular loop hole makes it OK because they think it should. He said not to carve statues and bow before them. How much clearer could He have put it. And that’s quite different from carving images of pomegranates on pillars for decoration.

Same with Christmas trees…the Bible says not to bring trees into the house and decorate them. Period, the argument that people aren’t worshipping the tree, or the person that the statue represents, is immaterial. God said don’t do it.

I think this happens when you intepret literally with no authority.

 

[schaeffer]

I think this happens when you intepret literally with no authority.

I perhaps lack imagination, but hard to even think of another way to spin it.

But nope, I’m not an authority. Just a bystander scratching my head.

 

[JMM1957]

I think this happens when you intepret literally with no authority.

Right, proper interpretation will tell you that some things in the Bible were said at a certain time periods to address certain situations that were more prevalent. Not to say that it can’t still apply to today though in some instances.

 

[JMM1957]

I perhaps lack imagination, but hard to even think of another way to spin it.

But nope, I’m not an authority. Just a bystander scratching my head.

As I have said before, God can’t be fooled, He knows what is in the heart and mind. He knows if you are worshiping a statue or picture, or if it is merely a form of art.

 

[Michael68]

I perhaps lack imagination, but hard to even think of another way to spin it.

But nope, I’m not an authority. Just a bystander scratching my head.

It clearly means don’t worship the image. No Catholic worships the image. This is a false accusation from looking at pictures of Catholics. They don’t understand and so they label it as idol worship which couldn’t be farther from the truth.

 

[schaeffer]

As I have said before, God can’t be fooled, He knows what is in the heart and mind. He knows if you are worshiping a statue or picture, or if it is merely a form of art.

God cannot be fooled.

People use the reasoning of " my heart was in the right place" all the time.

They use it to justify forbidden behavior to themselves and others…" it’s OK that I am having sex outside of marriage…because I really love this person…and my spouse ignores me, and it’s not hurting anyone…" etc.

God gives commands, He doesn’t give a laundry lists of loopholes. Saying God can read the heart…so it’s OK to do something forbidden sounds a whole lot like a teenager “in love”.

I’ve heard all the Catholic reasoning behind the use of statues and images. And I have no authority. Just calling it like I see it.

Catholics dis on pagans for having idols with the same accusations that others hurl at Catholics…they claim the pagans actually believe that image is a god. This is rarely if ever true. They know it’s an image. It’s similar to the crucifix. An image of a god, not the god itself, yet they venerate it and bow etc.

The claim that when Catholics bow/venerate it’s different is bogus. Catholics use a different connotation of the word worship.

If the Mass is seen as the only form of worship, then clearly statues are not worshipped. But given the common understanding of the term worship it’s easy to understand how confusing the behavior looks to others.

How God feels about the confusion I don’t pretend to know, and the Church says it does know…so rock on. I’m guessing he knew what was in the hearts of the pagans too and He’ll sort it all out.

 

[schaeffer]

It clearly means don’t worship the image. No Catholic worships the image. This is a false accusation from looking at pictures of Catholics. They don’t understand and so they label it as idol worship which couldn’t be farther from the truth.

It says don’t create images or erect pillars and bow down to them.

Yes, God does say not to worship anything but Him. He says that in many places in the Bible. He also repeats the not bowing to images several times.

I don’t think Catholics worship images. But they do the bowing. But say it’s OK for them. Hence the head scratching on my end.

And no “but they do it too” finger pointing changes that.

 

[Michael68]

God cannot be fooled.

People use the reasoning of " my heart was in the right place" all the time.

They use it to justify forbidden behavior to themselves and others…" it’s OK that I am having sex outside of marriage…because I really love this person…and my spouse ignores me, and it’s not hurting anyone…" etc.

God gives commands, He doesn’t give a laundry lists of loopholes. Saying God can read the heart…so it’s OK to do something forbidden sounds a whole lot like a teenager “in love”.

I’ve heard all the Catholic reasoning behind the use of statues and images. And I have no authority. Just calling it like I see it.

Catholics dis on pagans for having idols with the same accusations that others hurl at Catholics…they claim the pagans actually believe that image is a god. This is rarely if ever true. They know it’s an image. It’s similar to the crucifix. An image of a god, not the god itself, yet they venerate it and bow etc.

The claim that when Catholics bow/venerate it’s different is bogus. Catholics use a different connotation of the word worship.

If the Mass is seen as the only form of worship, then clearly statues are not worshipped. But given the common understanding of the term worship it’s easy to understand how confusing the behavior looks to others.

How God feels about the confusion I don’t pretend to know, and the Church says it does know…so rock on. I’m guessing he knew what was in the hearts of the pagans too and He’ll sort it all out.

I believe you are the one confused, not Catholics. If you can’t understand the difference between veneration and worship, you might as well stop there.

 

[schaeffer]

I believe you are the one confused, not Catholics. If you can’t understand the difference between veneration and worship, you might as well stop there.

No, I understand the difference. And I understand that for Catholics, Mass is worship. I said as much above.

God repeatedly said not to make images etc and bow to them.

That’s all I’m talking about. That’s what God said and repeated. I’m not adding, subtracting, or interpreting. It’s even translated as bowing ( not just as worship) in some Catholic bible translations. Maybe that’s the source of the confusion.

For Catholics bowing is not ever worship . But when they see people of other religions do it to images and statues…they say it is worship. But it’s OK because God knows the difference.

See, I’m not confused. I understand the Catholic teaching. And that they hold the authority to interpret the Bible.

Is this the same deal with Christmas trees? I’ve not seen much discourse on that. It’s OK to disregard command to not bring trees into the house and decorate them etc…as long as no one thinks they are God or offers Mass to them it’s OK?

 

[JMM1957]

It says don’t create images or erect pillars and bow down to them.

Yes, God does say not to worship anything but Him. He says that in many places in the Bible. He also repeats the not bowing to images several times.

I don’t think Catholics worship images. But they do the bowing. But say it’s OK for them. Hence the head scratching on my end.

And no “but they do it too” finger pointing changes that.

Did God go against His own commandment when He instructed Moses in the making of two gold cherubim for either side of the tabernacle? How about in Solomon’s Temple? Solomon’s Temple had many carvings, images, and even statues of angels and oxen, but in no case did anyone bow down before them and pray to what they represented. Many churches use similar such decorations of angels etc., and they do not go against the Commandments of God. How about the brass serpent of Moses on a pole? So, you see, the Bible clearly makes exceptions to carved images. These things are in no way any different than what we do today.

 

[zz912]

It says don’t create images or erect pillars and bow down to them.

Yes, God does say not to worship anything but Him. He says that in many places in the Bible. He also repeats the not bowing to images several times.

And just a few chapters later God orders images/statues to be made, and a bronze serpent on a pole to be erected. And people bowed down to them. So maybe your understanding of His command is flawed, since God Himself breaks the command under your interpretation?

I don’t think Catholics worship images. But they do the bowing. But say it’s OK for them. Hence the head scratching on my end.

There are many times people bowed to objects and people in Scripture, and it was ok. So why is it not okay for Christians?

And no “but they do it too” finger pointing changes that.

Giving examples of people doing the same thing in Scripture is unacceptable to show for support?

 

[zz912]

I know this subject has been beaten to death but…

I was taught, in Catholic school, and my understanding from reading the Bible, that God was present in the Ark of the Covenant.

That it’s a tabernacle. People weren’t bowing to the cherubs, they were bowing to the actual presence of God. The cherubs were put there to remind people that God was literally present.

No, the Presence of God would manifest when the Ark was actually in the Tabernacle. When it was being carried from one place to another, God’s Presence was not above the Ark. And even during those times, the Ark was bowed and prayed before. So they were showing veneration (not worship) to a holy object.

That seems considerably different than making a freestanding statue of a person and venerating it. Which is basically clearly forbidden, outright stated by God himself.

Source for this claim? In multiple instances, people bowed before other persons and gave them honor. And there was nothing wrong with this. Why would giving honor to a statue (which is giving honor to the person) be wrong?

The argument that some people kiss a photo of their mom is neither here nor there, God said not to make images and bow before them. Maybe the people kissing the picture of their mom are wrong too. And likely, given the habits of the pagans in that area, statues in general were forbidden.

Lot of maybes in your claims. I’ll stick with the Church’s declaration on this matter, since she has authority given by Jesus.

God doesn’t need to explain himself to people and reason with them as to whether or not a particular loop hole makes it OK because they think it should. He said not to carve statues and bow before them. How much clearer could He have put it. And that’s quite different from carving images of pomegranates on pillars for decoration.

So you missed the whole episode of the Bronze Serpent?

Same with Christmas trees…the Bible says not to bring trees into the house and decorate them. Period, the argument that people aren’t worshipping the tree, or the person that the statue represents, is immaterial. God said don’t do it.

You have a faulty reading of Scripture if you think Jeremiah 1 is referencing Christmas trees. The passage is talking about wooden idols (work of the hands of the workman). It’s not talking about a decorated Christmas tree.

 

[schaeffer]

And just a few chapters later God orders images/statues to be made, and a bronze serpent on a pole to be erected. And people bowed down to them. So maybe your understanding of His command is flawed, since God Himself breaks the command under your interpretation?

There are many times people bowed to objects and people in Scripture, and it was ok. So why is it not okay for Christians?

Giving examples of people doing the same thing in Scripture is unacceptable to show for support?

Apparently it is OK for Christians, and I guess for Jews as well.

 

[schaeffer]

But I really am curious about the tree issue if anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[schaeffer]

No, the Presence of God would manifest when the Ark was actually in the Tabernacle. When it was being carried from one place to another, God’s Presence was not above the Ark. And even during those times, the Ark was bowed and prayed before. So they were showing veneration (not worship) to a holy object.

Source for this claim? In multiple instances, people bowed before other persons and gave them honor. And there was nothing wrong with this. Why would giving honor to a statue (which is giving honor to the person) be wrong?

Lot of maybes in your claims. I’ll stick with the Church’s declaration on this matter, since she has authority given by Jesus.

So you missed the whole episode of the Bronze Serpent?

You have a faulty reading of Scripture if you think Jeremiah 1 is referencing Christmas trees. The passage is talking about wooden idols (work of the hands of the workman). It’s not talking about a decorated Christmas tree.

Thanks for addressing the tree part.

You should definitely stick to the church’s interpretations. I would never suggest otherwise.

 

[zz912]

But I really am curious about the tree issue if anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut.

Jeremiah 10:1 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the heavens, though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.”
6 No one is like you, Lord; you are great, and your name is mighty in power.
7 Who should not fear you, King of the nations? This is your due. Among all the wise leaders of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is no one like you.
8 They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz. What the craftsman and goldsmith have made is then dressed in blue and purple - all made by skilled workers.
10 But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’

This claim of God forbidding Christmas trees is an old canard thrown out by atheists and by those Protestant sects which object to celebrating Christmas. When you look at the passage in full, it is VERY clear this is describing wooden idols. The tree is cut, AND THEN fashioned by a worker/craftsman. Christmas trees aren’t fashioned, they are just cut. You look a little more, and there is references to speaking and walking. No one thinks Christmas trees will walk or speak anytime soon. It is obviously referring to an idol. And then a few verses later, twice it calls them idols.

So the whole claim is a bunch of bunk thrown out by those who are ignorant or those with an axe to grind.

 

[Michael68]

No, I understand the difference. And I understand that for Catholics, Mass is worship. I said as much above.

God repeatedly said not to make images etc and bow to them.

That’s all I’m talking about. That’s what God said and repeated. I’m not adding, subtracting, or interpreting. It’s even translated as bowing ( not just as worship) in some Catholic bible translations. Maybe that’s the source of the confusion.

For Catholics bowing is not ever worship . But when they see people of other religions do it to images and statues…they say it is worship. But it’s OK because God knows the difference.

See, I’m not confused. I understand the Catholic teaching. And that they hold the authority to interpret the Bible.

Is this the same deal with Christmas trees? I’ve not seen much discourse on that. It’s OK to disregard command to not bring trees into the house and decorate them etc…as long as no one thinks they are God or offers Mass to them it’s OK?

please show me where it says that in the bible about trees. I don’t doubt you, i just can’t find it.

 

[Michael68]

The verse about trees is in Jeremiah 10. Once again God says not to worship the tree! Do you actually think people worship Christmas trees?