Catholics and Graven Images

[Michael68]

It says don’t create images or erect pillars and bow down to them.

Yes, God does say not to worship anything but Him. He says that in many places in the Bible. He also repeats the not bowing to images several times.

I don’t think Catholics worship images. But they do the bowing. But say it’s OK for them. Hence the head scratching on my end.

And no “but they do it too” finger pointing changes that.

Since you consider all bowing as worship, can you explain that to the Japanese? I don’t think they consider all their bowing as worship. You might want to straighten them out on that!

 

[schaeffer]

Since you consider all bowing as worship, can you explain that to the Japanese? I don’t think they consider all their bowing as worship. You might want to straighten them out on that!

I don’t consider all bowing as worship. Nor is it my place or intention to straighten anyone out.

I’ve already said as much. In fact I said that in the post you quoted!

My wondering about something doesn’t equate to me wanting to correct or change anyone’s behavior.

Sorry if I gave that impression.

Thanks for the information!

 

[schaeffer]

Jeremiah 10:1 Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says: “Do not learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the heavens, though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.”
6 No one is like you, Lord; you are great, and your name is mighty in power.
7 Who should not fear you, King of the nations? This is your due. Among all the wise leaders of the nations and in all their kingdoms, there is no one like you.
8 They are all senseless and foolish; they are taught by worthless wooden idols.
9 Hammered silver is brought from Tarshish and gold from Uphaz. What the craftsman and goldsmith have made is then dressed in blue and purple - all made by skilled workers.
10 But the Lord is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
11 “Tell them this: ‘These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.’

This claim of God forbidding Christmas trees is an old canard thrown out by atheists and by those Protestant sects which object to celebrating Christmas. When you look at the passage in full, it is VERY clear this is describing wooden idols. The tree is cut, AND THEN fashioned by a worker/craftsman. Christmas trees aren’t fashioned, they are just cut. You look a little more, and there is references to speaking and walking. No one thinks Christmas trees will walk or speak anytime soon. It is obviously referring to an idol. And then a few verses later, twice it calls them idols.

So the whole claim is a bunch of bunk thrown out by those who are ignorant or those with an axe to grind.

Thank you for this. It is extremely helpful.

 

[JohnGerard]

Wow. I must say to zz912, thank you very much. What a masterful lesson you have just shown us in the need for proper contextual interpretation over against an interpretation that was basically presented as airtight. (I was confused there for a minute because I couldn’t figure out how the ancient Jews could’ve been guilty of celebrating Jesus’ birthday 600 or so years before it happened.)

Since the Christmas tree issue was presented as the “same” as the statue issue which is just as “clearly forbidden”, I must also thank you for clarifying that issue for me as well.

Seriously. You helped me out alot.

 

[zz912]

Wow. I must say to zz912, thank you very much. What a masterful lesson you have just shown us in the need for proper contextual interpretation over against an interpretation that was basically presented as airtight. (I was confused there for a minute because I couldn’t figure out how the ancient Jews could’ve been guilty of celebrating Jesus’ birthday 600 or so years before it happened.)

Since the Christmas tree issue was presented as the “same” as the statue issue which is just as “clearly forbidden”, I must also thank you for clarifying that issue for me as well.

Seriously. You helped me out alot.

:tiphat:

You are welcome. Although to be clear, I was merely re-presenting what others have said. My information came from reading others much more informed and knowledgeable than I. One thing you can be sure of, is for every wild claim made by someone attacking the Church, there is a Catholic Answer just waiting for you to find it.

 

[dmar198]

God doesn’t need to explain himself to people and reason with them as to whether or not a particular loop hole makes it OK because they think it should. He said not to carve statues and bow before them. How much clearer could He have put it. And that’s quite different from carving images of pomegranates on pillars for decoration.

How do you interpret this verse? Deuteronomy 4:19 - “**eware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the host of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them.”

If someone said, “Hey, God said not to look at the sky and worship it. How much clearer could He have put it. Astronomers need to stop.” – Wouldn’t you point out that looking at the sky is only wrong When you are worshiping it? In the same way, when we say that carving images is only wrong When you are worshiping them, how is that any different?

Also, I don’t think carving pomegranates for decoration is any different. Exodus 20:4 says “You shall not make for yourself a carved image.” That’s what a carved pomegranate is. If the verse is interpreted literally, it doesn’t say, “Well, pomegranates are okay if they are for decoration.” It says “No carved images.” But since you are willing to interpret it loosely in order to allow for pomegranates, why not for angels? And saints?**

 

[Michael68]

These ppl posting this ridiculous stuff about graven images better not have any photos, figurines or anything made of wood. Come On!!! A little common sense please!

 

[brittrossiter]

Wasn’t this whole issue settled way way back in 787 at the Second Council of Nicaea?

As the sacred and life-giving cross is everywhere set up as a symbol, so also should the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the holy angels, as well as those of the saints and other pious and holy men be embodied in the manufacture of sacred vessels, tapestries, vestments, etc., and exhibited on the walls of churches, in the homes, and in all conspicuous places, by the roadside and everywhere, to be revered by all who might see them. For the more they are contemplated, the more they move to fervent memory of their prototypes. Therefore, it is proper to accord to them a fervent and reverent adoration, not, however, the veritable worship which, according to our faith, belongs to the Divine Being alone — for the honor accorded to the image passes over to its prototype, and whoever adores the image adores in it the reality of what is there represented. (Source.)

St. John of Damascus (+749) has a wonderful treatise (which you can read for free online here) on the veneration of holy images. St. John goes to great pains to distinguish between the veneration of an image, which is passed through to its prototype, and true worship, which is due only to God. He also explains at length how the rejection of images, statutes, etc., is essentially a rejection of the Church’s teaching that Christ actually became a man incarnate and lived among us.

 

[JonNC]

Wasn’t this whole issue settled way way back in 787 at the Second Council of Nicaea?

As the sacred and life-giving cross is everywhere set up as a symbol, so also should the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mary, the holy angels, as well as those of the saints and other pious and holy men be embodied in the manufacture of sacred vessels, tapestries, vestments, etc., and exhibited on the walls of churches, in the homes, and in all conspicuous places, by the roadside and everywhere, to be revered by all who might see them. For the more they are contemplated, the more they move to fervent memory of their prototypes. Therefore, it is proper to accord to them a fervent and reverent adoration, not, however, the veritable worship which, according to our faith, belongs to the Divine Being alone — for the honor accorded to the image passes over to its prototype, and whoever adores the image adores in it the reality of what is there represented. (Source.)

St. John of Damascus (+749) has a wonderful treatise (which you can read for free online here) on the veneration of holy images. St. John goes to great pains to distinguish between the veneration of an image, which is passed through to its prototype, and true worship, which is due only to God. He also explains at length how the rejection of images, statutes, etc., is essentially a rejection of the Church’s teaching that Christ actually became a man incarnate and lived among us.

Yep.

Jon

 

[zz912]

Wasn’t this whole issue settled way way back in 787 at the Second Council of Nicaea?

St. John of Damascus (+749) has a wonderful treatise (which you can read for free online here) on the veneration of holy images. St. John goes to great pains to distinguish between the veneration of an image, which is passed through to its prototype, and true worship, which is due only to God. He also explains at length how the rejection of images, statutes, etc., is essentially a rejection of the Church’s teaching that Christ actually became a man incarnate and lived among us.

Yes, the issue was settled. But with most heresies, variations just pop up later with different titles. Many different protestant denominations believe in recycled heresies from long ago. Some object to icons (Iconoclasm), others to the title “mother of God” (Nestorianism), others to divinity of Christ (Arianism), others to the dual natures of Christ (Monophysitism), others that God is really only shown in the NT and we can ignore the OT (Marcionism), and others that salvation can’t be lost (Antinomianism). Muslims seem to believe in a form of Docetism, that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. And I would even argue that sola scriptura is a form of Gnosticism, in that special knowledge (the Bible) is given to each person individually instead of through the Church.

 

[Michael68]

I know this subject has been beaten to death but…

I was taught, in Catholic school, and my understanding from reading the Bible, that God was present in the Ark of the Covenant.

That it’s a tabernacle. People weren’t bowing to the cherubs, they were bowing to the actual presence of God. The cherubs were put there to remind people that God was literally present.

That seems considerably different than making a freestanding statue of a person and venerating it. Which is basically clearly forbidden, outright stated by God himself.

The argument that some people kiss a photo of their mom is neither here nor there, God said not to make images and bow before them. May

God doesn’t need to explain himself to people and reason with them as to whether or not a particular loop hole makes it OK because they think it should. He said not to carve statues and bow before them. How much clearer could He have put it. And that’s quite different from carving images of pomegranates on pillars for decoration.

Same with Christmas trees…the Bible says not to bring trees into the house and decorate them. Period, the argument that people aren’t worshipping the tree, or the person that the statue represents, is immaterial. God said don’t do it.

So, you just disregard the rest of these verses which go on to explain how it becomes idolatry?

 

[brittrossiter]

Yes, the issue was settled. But with most heresies, variations just pop up later with different titles. Many different protestant denominations believe in recycled heresies from long ago. Some object to icons (Iconoclasm), others to the title “mother of God” (Nestorianism), others to divinity of Christ (Arianism), others to the dual natures of Christ (Monophysitism), others that God is really only shown in the NT and we can ignore the OT (Marcionism), and others that salvation can’t be lost (Antinomianism). Muslims seem to believe in a form of Docetism, that Jesus didn’t die on the cross. And I would even argue that sola scriptura is a form of Gnosticism, in that special knowledge (the Bible) is given to each person individually instead of through the Church.

There truly is nothing new under the sun, then.

 

[schaeffer]

So, you just disregard the rest of these verses which go on to explain how it becomes idolatry?

If you read further along in the thread you’ll see that I have read and thanked people for sharing more information with me.

Is there a purposeful reason to go back to my earlier posts and repeat the process?

 

[Michael68]

If you read further along in the thread you’ll see that I have read and thanked people for sharing more information with me.

Is there a purposeful reason to go back to my earlier posts and repeat the process?

No, I guess not since this is the last page. I can’t read any further