Catholics and illegal immigration

[Ad_Altare_Dei_1]

I’m coming back to my Catholic faith after a couple years of living in the darkness of habitual sin. One issue that has always bugged me and seemed a conflict between my faith and daily life is illegal immigrants. I know many of them sneak into our country in hopes of a better life for themselves and their families. Others sneak in to wreak havoc through crime, drug dealing, etc. The sheer number of illegal immigrants is draining the welfare resources and over-burdening hospitals, jails and such. Either way, it’s a crime that they are here, legally speaking, and all should be deported when discovered. I agree with this somewhat. Morally, however, I don’t like the idea of sending an honest, hard working person and his family back to a place of despair and poverty. Then there are lessons in the Old Testament about caring for the alien people in a tribe. I guess my conflict is between my concern for our country’s welfare as an American and loving my neighbor regardless of national allegiance. Spiritually, I know we are all God’s children regardless of where we were born or raised. Emotionally, I feel our country would be better off to deport all illegal immigrants and then let the hard workers in via a guest program.

I imagine my feelings are due in large part to my not being an active Christian for a couple of years. Perhaps as I continue to grow in faith those thoughts will change. But I can’t imagine I’m the only person with these conflicting thoughts.

If you have a similar conflict, how do you deal with it?

 

[karebear92]

Well, I don’t think the Catholic Church necessarily embraces strict illegal immigration laws. You do not have to take the republican stance on all issues to be a good Catholic. I don’t think anything you said totally goes against Catholic teaching.

Personally, I think the process to become an American citizen are much too strict. For example, a few years ago my civics class took a practice exam of the test immigrants must pass and all but a few failed. It is just too difficult. And then add the expense and other issues to it and it is just unreasonable. I believe they help our economy much more than they hurt it and they have a much clearer picture of what the American Dream is actually about than many Americans today. They are willing to pull themselves of from their bootstraps while many Americans expect the government to pull them through.

 

[Nimzovik]

Au contraire. To allow people to come in free without earning citizenship then those gifted with said citizenship may not have respect for it. Also the financial drain on services is horrific. Living in California I am conversant with this. My wife paid approx 10 grand to become a citizen via immigration coming from Britain. Why should she have to pay and others not? Also note that those here without citizenship have benefits with no reciprocity. No taxes paid. If they break a law they may get sent back home! Some do this deliberately to get home for Christmas. I kid you not. Also they do not get drafted (yes the draft is not in place now I know- but it will be again sooner or later) Also is it not stealing to sponge off others labor? Is this not a sin? I am all for a citizenship earning process. Then there is the drug cartels. I also assert that the native English language should be learned. If they then wish to speak their own language then fine. It is to be noted that a single language unifies people. Then there is the drain of bilingual education. What a fiasco that is! Probe how California dropped in the public school system! It is below Mississipi! I could go on forever.

That said I am all for honest hard working people getting the American dream.

 

[karebear92]

Au contraire. To allow people to come in free without earning citizenship then those gifted with said citizenship may not have respect for it. Also the financial drain on services is horrific. Living in California I am conversant with this. My wife paid approx 10 grand to become a citizen via immigration coming from Britain. Why should she have to pay and others not? Also note that those here without citizenship have benefits with no reciprocity. No taxes paid. If they break a law they may get sent back home! Some do this deliberately to get home for Christmas. I kid you not. Also they do not get drafted (yes the draft is not in place now I know- but it will be again sooner or later) Also is it not stealing to sponge off others labor? Is this not a sin? I am all for a citizenship earning process. Then there is the drug cartels. I also assert that the native English language should be learned. If they then wish to speak their own language then fine. It is to be noted that a single language unifies people. Then there is the drain of bilingual education. What a fiasco that is! Probe how California dropped in the public school system! It is below Mississipi! I could go on forever.

That said I am all for honest hard working people getting the American dream.

I agree with just about everything you say, but I believe much of the problem could be remedied by making the immigration laws less strict. Don’t get me wrong, I agree that illegal immigrants should not be allowed to live in America tax-free and everything, but I don’t think many of the illegal immigrants want that either. They just want to work and live in America but aren’t able to because of financial or other issues. I truly believe nearly all immigrants are coming into the country because of the American dream. The drug-cartel problem is probably similar to the rape and incest problem when dealing with abortion. And deporting them can not be the proper solution. The only thing I disagree with is the statement about learning English. While I agree that learning English is important for them, I think it is equally important to teach English-speaking kids Spanish. Also, lets face it, most immigrants aren’t moving into the middle of an all-white, all-english-speaking community, and their schools reflect that, so teaching bilingual education is typically not much of an issue. Learning multiple languages allows us to be more united with all people, and not just those in the United States.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

There are several misunderstandings, because of mistaken allegations by some: Everyone pays sales and most SSA Taxes (often not forwarded to SSA); major corporations have advertised south of our Borders for jobs here; major unbiased studies show that Illegals don’t really tax our benefits: they are self supporting on our Economy, not a direct draw; very few come to become criminals here; most come to support their families, there or here, consciensciously.

 

[exnihilo]

There are several things to consider. First, is the law just? Does a nation have a right to restrict who enters it? I think the answer is yes. I look at it as a basic property rights issue.

Practically speaking the illegal immigration problem creates many great evils. The first is creating a basic disrespect for the law since it is not well or evenly enforced.

Another problem is financial. A single year of government school is going to cost at least $10,000 per student. An immigrant family with just 2 kids in schools is consuming $20,000 worth of resources in just education. That is $240,000 for 12 years of school. A country as in debt as ours is financially irresponsible to borrow money (force future generations to pay) in order to sustain this. I cant see how it is right to place the cost of our choices on our children.

Illegal immigration also exposes a hypocrisy or lie. Some claim that American citizens cant find jobs and thus we must pay them money (welfare). Often the same people making this claim say that illegals do jobs that Americans wont do (this is probably the more true statement). Illegals also push down wage prices by increasing the supply of labor and by being willing to work for much less. The bottom line is a system that pays some people not to work and allows illegals to come in and bid wages down is doomed to collapse. What amazes me here is the same people who want welfare, unfettered immigration and higher wages dont see how each idea on how things should be works against their other ideas.

There is also an element of exploitation. Immigrants neediness is exploited so that some people can get cheaper labor. This labor can be abused, because they are less likely to contact the law. These employers often rob the system by not paying taxes and at the very least rob their fellow citizen by socializing costs (they get the taxpayer to subsidize their labor - free health care, subsidized housing, education etc).

Illegals can increase crime by being an exploitable segment of society and not being willing to contact law enforcement. Their illegal status keeps them from wanting to contact the law when they are a victim or have information about a crime.

I appreciate that many people want to come to the US to work hard and make a better life. When you look at this as a property rights issue then you dont see advocates for illegal immigration allowing anyone who wants to come into their home and use their resources to do so. Their personal property is inviolate.

We have an obligation to help people but that obligation does not require us to destroy ourselves and prohibits us from destroying our own family to do it. The bottom line for me is it surely wrong to sacrifice our own children’s future, who we have a greater responsibility to, for the sake of these illegals.

 

[Beth_Cecilia]

justiceforimmigrants.org/index.shtml

That is what our bishops have to say on the subject.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, AntalKalnoky,

I would like to know where this information you have provided comes from. Really.

The idea is that everything is ‘ok’ and that illegal immigrants do so much to help the country just does not hold water. And, that is something that we can discuss - but the problem is multi-pronged. The US has laws against illegal immigration that have not been followed for several several years - and laws that are ignored are worse than a waste of time. As I see it, the US - like every other country on earth - has laws that govern immigration. Has anyone seen what other countries do with their illegals?

Besides drugs and guns we are now looking at human traficking - women and children sold into the sex trade, and with so few to gurard the boarders, it becomes a simple business transaction to smuggle these victims into the US to make money for their masters.

What truly needs to be discussed is that the US is really a country founded by immigrants - and they all essentially pulled together to make the US.- back then it was called the ‘Melting Pot’. Today, we have - by law - many signs in English and Spanis, have been unable to have English declared as our official language and have groups that insist that Spanish is the language to keep because it is their ‘native tongue’. Try reversing this (at lest in your imagination) with a large immigration from the US to Mexico. The basic idea with Mexico and most other countries is that if you want to be here instead of your country of birth - then learn the language of the country you ar emoving to. Do not expect signs (especially in voting areas) to be in other than Spanish. These Mexican leaders are not stupid - if you are going to have some say-so as to who is elected or what laws will be enacted - and you do not speak the language, just how can you claim to be casting an imformed vote?

I really do not think this is being mean, or nasty or un-Christian or anything like that. Everyone is expected to follow the laws of the country you are going to visit - and if you plan on living here, you best know these laws. The operative work is ILLEGAL when we discuss illegal immigration. Who is actively justifying breaking the laws that have been reasonably obtained?

Admittedly, this is a mess - and no one out there (at least as far as I can tell) has an answer that will address this issue. But, stopping the daily flow of ILLEGAL immigrants must be something that is discussed today.

God bless

There are several misunderstandings, because of mistaken allegations by some: Everyone pays sales and most SSA Taxes (often not forwarded to SSA); major corporations have advertised south of our Borders for jobs here; major unbiased studies show that Illegals don’t really tax our benefits: they are self supporting on our Economy, not a direct draw; very few come to become criminals here; most come to support their families, there or here, consciensciously.

 

[mystagogia]

Does the Catholic Church allow just anybody to partake in the Holy Eucharist? No, it does not. One must gain trust, accept certain doctines, make certain public declarations which must be held valid.

It’s a time of passage from coming to the Church till being accepted in it as a confirmed adult member.

Why hold a country to a different standard?

 

[karebear92]

Does the Catholic Church allow just anybody to partake in the Holy Eucharist? No, it does not. One must gain trust, accept certain doctines, make certain public declarations which must be held valid.

It’s a time of passage from coming to the Church till being accepted in it as a confirmed adult member.

Why hold a country to a different standard?

But the question we must ask is: is the “right of passage” for illegal immigrants fair? We would not make it nearly impossible for a non-Catholic to become a Catholic. I don’t believe our immigration laws are fair. I do not condone illegal immigration, but I also do not condone the current policy that makes it incredibly difficult to become a legal immigrant.

 

[karebear92]

Hi,
What truly needs to be discussed is that the US is really a country founded by immigrants - and they all essentially pulled together to make the US.- back then it was called the ‘Melting Pot’. Today, we have - by law - many signs in English and Spanis, have been unable to have English declared as our official language and have groups that insist that Spanish is the language to keep because it is their ‘native tongue’. Try reversing this (at lest in your imagination) with a large immigration from the US to Mexico. The basic idea with Mexico and most other countries is that if you want to be here instead of your country of birth - then learn the language of the country you ar emoving to. Do not expect signs (especially in voting areas) to be in other than Spanish. These Mexican leaders are not stupid - if you are going to have some say-so as to who is elected or what laws will be enacted - and you do not speak the language, just how can you claim to be casting an imformed vote?
Really? So you can not have an opinion or make an informed vote about what happens in Germany, France, Africa, China, Japan, North Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. I just don’t think that is the case. Now, don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that we should vote in those places because it does not affect us, but the elections most certainly do affect the Hispanic-Americans that are voting. To say you can not make an informed vote simply because you do not speak the language of the majority is ludicrous. For example, my friend is hispanic. Her mother does not speak English, but she, who was born in America, speaks English as well as I do. Can she not inform her mother? There is no reason why we can not learn two languages just as they are expected to. I do not condone illegal immigration, believe me I don’t, but there are many examples that people just don’t take into consideration. For example, another friend of mine was an illegal immigrant and I did not even know until a few weeks ago. She moved here with her parents when she was a toddler. She speaks fluent English and nobody would ever assume that she is an illegal immigrant, but still she married her high school sweetheart before they probably should have to prevent deportation. Is this right? No. She deserves to be an American citizen just as much as I do. I am not saying that what she or her family did was right, but it is not as if they came over illegally because they wanted to avoid paying taxes. It was because they were not able to do it legally and they wanted a better life.

Is illegal immigration wrong? Yes. Is the current path to legal immigration wrong? Yes. I propose that if we make legal immigration easier, it will solve the problem to a great degree.

 

[redpepper]

Does the Catholic Church allow just anybody to partake in the Holy Eucharist? No, it does not. One must gain trust, accept certain doctines, make certain public declarations which must be held valid.

It’s a time of passage from coming to the Church till being accepted in it as a confirmed adult member.

Why hold a country to a different standard?

As a catholic I find this post highly offensive towards the Catholic Church and the Holy Eucharist. You can not put a country and the Holy Eucharist on the same level.

 

[Saburo]

As a catholic I find this post highly offensive towards the Catholic Church and the Holy Eucharist. You can not put a country and the Holy Eucharist on the same level.

You take offense too easily or perhaps insincerely. The comparison illustrates a valid point regarding a standard of acceptance.

 

[2Rollin_Stoned]

An interesting thread, since I recently heard a homily (around the 4th of July) that incorporated the last 5 lines of the following poem which are inscribed on our statue of Liberty. The priest compared them to the Gospel of the Sunday which consisted of Our Lord’s own words,
[28] Come to me, all you that labour, and are burdened, and I will refresh you. [29] Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart: and you shall find rest to your souls. [30] For my yoke is sweet and my burden light.

The New Colossus

By Emma Lazarus, 1883

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

My own ancestors were among those “wretched refuse” and, unless we are Native Americans, the same can be said for most all of us. Just something that we might reflect upon today.

 

[exnihilo]

Hi, What truly needs to be discussed is that the US is really a country founded by immigrants - and they all essentially pulled together to make the US.- back then it was called the ‘Melting Pot’.

The US was certainly founded by immigrants. Personally I dont like the use of the term melting pot. I think that is not an entirely accurate phrase and was invented for the purpose of removing the idea that the US has any defining culture. Early America was almost entirely English and German. Both influenced our culture. The legals system is English which is different from the Continental European system. Louisiana testifies to this in being an exception with its unique French heritage and legal system. Even at that its differences were concentrated to a region not melted into the whole.

That is what our bishops have to say on the subject.

I have great respect for Catholic thinking but this is an area that I have significant problems with.

Enforcement-only immigration policies are not working. In the past decade, Congress has spent $117 billion of taxpayer dollars on immigration enforcement initiatives, yet the number of unauthorized immigrants in the country has grown to 11.2 million and the demand for foreign-born, low-skilled labor has continued on pace with the ebbs and flows of the U.S. economy.

I dont disagree with the first idea. But if so why not be as strong an advocate for the end of the drug war which treats people with drug problems by locking them up in jail. The drug war is far more costly.

‘Unathorized’ is obviously deliberately chosen. Illegal is the proper word. Would they call someone who takes up residence in your home an ‘unathorized roommate’?

All persons have the right to find in their own countries the economic, political, and social opportunities to live in dignity and achieve a full life through the use of their God-given gifts. In this context, work that provides a just, living wage is a basic human need.

Do they not understand that cheap immigrant labor increases supply of labor and lowers the wage for all workers? That is just basic economics.

The Church recognizes the right of sovereign nations to control their territories but rejects such control when it is exerted merely for the purpose of acquiring additional wealth. More powerful economic nations, which have the ability to protect and feed their residents, have a stronger obligation to accommodate migration flows.

The US is the most indebted nation in the history of the world. The costs of our current policies are put on our children. This notion also ignores the fact that the world economy reaches equilibrium. In one sense it does not matter where a person lives. If an economy needs workers and does not have them natively it will hire foreign labor in their foreign lands. Following this to its ridiculous end if everyone moved to the US the world would not grow wealthier the US would just contain the world.

The Church recognizes that all goods of the earth belong to all people. When persons cannot find employment in their country of origin to support themselves and their families, they have a right to find work elsewhere in order to survive. Sovereign nations should provide ways to accommodate this right.

Are they aware of our current unemployment rate? We dont have excess jobs. In addition we pay people not to work who claim they cant find work. This is highly illogical.

Those who flee wars and persecution should be protected by the global community. This requires, at a minimum, that migrants have a right to claim refugee status without incarceration and to have their claims fully considered by a competent authority.

I dont disagree but the US is the chief maker of war on the planet. I can see how someone would want to be in the US in order to avoid being bombed by the US. The US sows war and conflict by its involvement in the internal politics of foreign nations. Much of the problems could be solved not by allowing immigration but by reigning in the US’s exercise of its superior power.

An interesting thread, since I recently heard a homily (around the 4th of July) that incorporated the last 5 lines of the following poem which are inscribed on our statue of Liberty. The priest compared them to the Gospel of the Sunday which consisted of Our Lord’s own words,

It is a nice poem. But it is a poem, not a reasoned argument. It reminds me of what H. L. Mencken so rightly said about the Gettysburg Address

The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American history…the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry, not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.

We have to be careful taking the words of a poem too seriously. This poem is proof. The author claimed America should accept anyone but she was an advocate of a racial homeland for her people. Emma Lazarus was a Zionist.

 

[JackyB]

My husband does not have a Uk Passport and as a result for him to remain with his wife and children we had to pay thousands of pounds, money which I worked 2 jobs to raise. I might not agree with the law but I had to abide by it. That others feel they don’t have to go to the same legal lengths to obtain what I worked so hard for should be immediately booted out the country, either that or return my money.

 

[Birdpreacher]

Did The Holy Family have papers when they moved to Egypt?

 

[pnewton]

As a Catholic, you can listen to what the bishops say, then listen to what those that argue against our bishops say. Which side sounds to you more like Jesus? Which side is motivated more by the good for others and which side is motivated by what is good for themselves?

AB Dolan said there was a new document in the works that he is co-writing with AB Gomez. I think it is something to look forward to. I doubt it will please either side that puts a high priority on political affiliation.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m coming back to my Catholic faith after a couple years of living in the darkness of habitual sin. One issue that has always bugged me and seemed a conflict between my faith and daily life is illegal immigrants. I?

I can understand being ambivalent about the issue of illegal immigration, but at a loss to understand how that affects your Catholic faith and practice? What specifically has the US Bishops organization, or individual bishops said that leads you to believe the Church condones illegal activity? The bishops have universally called for, as have the recent presidents and members of congress in both parties, for reform of immigration law. They have not made sharing this viewpoint an article of faith or doctrine, or a test for Catholic orthodoxy. Do you think the law is fine as it exists and is administered?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Karebear92,

You have set upon the true center of the argument, with the near deafing whine of, “That’s not fair!” Well, I got news for you pilgirm - life is not fair. From birth to death, none of have exactly the same cards dealt to us - and this is fromt he Divine Dealer. The issue that each country has is how can we make equal opportunities for each our citizens - for the mentally retarded to the the genius, from the men on one side and the women on the other, from children on one side and adolescents on another and still a side for adults.

We as a society consciously - and legally - discriminate against (and for) items, causes and persons we have assessed. Look around you … with your family in the car, would you pick up a lone hitchhiker? Would you offer money to someone panhandling outside of a liquor store? Would you march in a parade proclaiming same-sex marriage? Don’t dismiss these as ‘straw men’ … simply identify a person, group or idea that you do not support and actively discriminate against. Each member of the group you have discriminated against can say you have discriminated agaist them - and that would be true. They can say you gave to group ‘x’ but not them - and that would be true. And, finally, they can say, “That’s not fair!”: And, I submit to you, fairness has nothing to do with it. We are obligated to justice first and then to mercy.

Each country sets up the standards where people from other countries are legally allowed to enter. I traveled to England - and on my passport the Officer stamped that I could not work there OR apply for public assistance. Those are the conditions under which I entered the country. I abided by them - but, I am sure there are those who would say, “That is not fair”. Well, if I took a local citizen’s job - breaking the conditions under which I entered the country - they could say, “That’s not fair”. If I, as a foreign national, applied for public assistance I am taking out funds that I have made no contribution to - and I have reduced the amount of those funds for those who have made contribuitons. Truly, just who is it we are trying to be fair to? If we violate justice in order to provide mercy at the expense of the rights of others - what kind of respect for law are we providing?

If you do not believe the immigration laws are ‘fair’ - there are two major options open to you:

1- Legal: work withing the system, hold meetings, sign petitions, work the election of people who agree with what you think is correct (or, run for office yourself) write your elected officials and vote for the candidates you think will make a real difference in getting the changes you want to see enacted.

2- Illegal: work to help others break the law, break the law yourself, promote illegal immigration and claim you are being 'fair because the current system is ‘unfai’. and ‘difficult’.

Those are the only two choices. We have a legal set of laws that try and respect the rights of the citizens who voted for the men and women who are in office and enacted those laws. This is what a representative democracy is all about. We are not talking about reporting Jews to Nazi authorities so they could be arrested, deported and murdered.

This is not an easy topic - all kinds of people falling short of various marks that we in society have set to determining what is just. This however is the real world - and you still have only the two choices I presented above to choose from. But, let me ask you … if you choose the second - which laws will come up next to be trampled under the foot of ‘fairness’ and ‘lack of difficulty’?

God bless

But the question we must ask is: is the “right of passage” for illegal immigrants fair? We would not make it nearly impossible for a non-Catholic to become a Catholic. I don’t believe our immigration laws are fair. I do not condone illegal immigration, but I also do not condone the current policy that makes it incredibly difficult to become a legal immigrant.