T
total_relism
Guest
Just wanted to say thanks all for responses. I think that fear is gone.
- Status
U
UbiCaritas15
Guest
Oh, but the bible is so full of Eucharistic imagery…
Edit: this looked sarcastic. I didn’t mean it sarcastically.
K
KP3243
Guest
December 25th is historically, traditionally, the day for Christmas on the Church calendar. We have no problem following the Church calendar. As I recall, there are some who say it probably wasn’t in December, at least in part because shepherds probably would not have been out in the fields at that time
Have you been to the Holy Land for Christmas? It isn’t horribly cold it’s like 40s at night and 50s during the day in Bethlehem. Bethlehem is about on the same parallel as Dallas, Texas.
K
KP3243
Guest
I agree, to me the authority is gods written word not man, i feel my biggest objection to catholic doctrine as a whole is it seems the authority is on man.
But you have to rely on the authority of the Catholic Church to get the New Testament and the Bible itself! You don’t get the Bible without the Church and the Bible says the Pillar and
Bulwark of Truth is the Church not scripture. Besides that the Bible was not compiled until the fourth century and books were rare until the printing press was invented a millennium later so how do you account for the almost four hundred years mankind was without a
Bible and concise closed canon and the fact the access to scripture was rare for a 1000 years. You probably also have to address the fact that most of the world was illiterate until about a hundred/ hundred fifty years ago until the invention of universal education where poor kids and women had access to education and could read.
But you have to rely on the authority of the Catholic Church to get the New Testament and the Bible itself! You don’t get the Bible without the Church and the Bible says the Pillar and
Bulwark of Truth is the Church not scripture. Besides that the Bible was not compiled until the fourth century and books were rare until the printing press was invented a millennium later so how do you account for the almost four hundred years mankind was without a
Bible and concise closed canon and the fact the access to scripture was rare for a 1000 years. You probably also have to address the fact that most of the world was illiterate until about a hundred/ hundred fifty years ago until the invention of universal education where poor kids and women had access to education and could read.
K
KP3243
Guest
i do because its the accepted date in our society. I know its the wrong date. I call monday monday, even though its named after some roman god i believe.
But I thought you can’t use anything outside of the Bible for something so serious as celebrating your Savior’s birth and you say you know it is the wrong date so does that mean you could be wrong about other things then? Picking the date of your Savior’s birth isn’t like calling Monday Monday.
But I thought you can’t use anything outside of the Bible for something so serious as celebrating your Savior’s birth and you say you know it is the wrong date so does that mean you could be wrong about other things then? Picking the date of your Savior’s birth isn’t like calling Monday Monday.
K
KP3243
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by total relism
My understanding of it and the rest of the bible does disagree with that position.
Well, starting in Genesis 14:18, Melchizidek, the High Priest, offers bread and wine as sacrifice. The Bible says in Hebrews 7:17 that Jesus is priest forever, in the line of Melchizidek. Melchizidek is a biblical type (foreshadowing) of Jesus. A biblical type is an OT person or event that prefigures a person or event in the New Testament. Jesus offered Himself at the Last Supper in the form of bread and wine, so He is both priest and victim.
It’s also important to remember that just as Adam and Eve allowed sin to enter the world by physically eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Mary gives us the fruit of the cross aka the Tree of Life, which is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist for us to physically eat, thus overcoming sin and allowing our salvation. The devil goes around as a roaring lion seeking to devour us; Jesus, on the other hand, goes around like the Lamb of God seeking for us to devour His flesh to overcome the devil.
In Leviticus 24:1-8, God directs the Israelites to create the Bread of the Presence (see also Exodus 25:30, Exodus 35:13, Exodus 39:36, Numbers 4:7, 1 Samuel 21:6, 1 Kings 7:48, 2 Chronicles 4:19, 1 Maccabees 1:22, 2 Maccabees 10:3, Matthew 12:4, Mark 2:26, Luke 6:4, & Hebrews 9:2:
The LORD said to Moses, "Command the people of Israel to bring you pure oil from beaten olives for the lamp, that A LIGHT MAY BE KEPT BURNING CONTINUALLY. Outside the veil of the testimony, in the tent of meeting, Aaron shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD continually; it shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations. He shall keep the lamps in order upon the lampstand of pure gold before the LORD continually."And you shall take FINE FLOUR, and bake twelve cakes of it; two tenths of an ephah shall be in each cake. And you shall set them in two rows, six in a row, upon the table of pure gold. And you shall put pure frankINCENSE with each row, that it may go with the BREAD as a memorial portion to be offered by fire to the LORD. EVERY SABBATH day Aaron shall set it in order before the LORD continually on behalf of the people of Israel as A COVENANT FOREVER.
In the Catholic Church, there is a lamp that burns continually near the tabernacle where the Eucharist is kept, behind a veil, in a golden tabernacle. During the Mass on the Lord’s Day, it is placed on the altar, or table for sacrifice, with incense. And according to Jesus in Luke 22:19-20, the bread that is now become his body (his real PRESENCE) and the wine that is now become His blood is to be a memorial sacrificial meal for the New Covenant that also forgives sins. There are LOTS of parallels here between the Bread of the Presence and the Eucharist.
When Elijah was fleeing from Jezebel, he ate cake from heaven, and was able to survive for 40 days and 40 nights on it. And that is definitely a huge hint that those of us who eat bread from heaven at Mass have strength for the journey!
1 Kings 19:5-8: And he lay down and slept under a broom tree; and behold, an angel touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.” And he looked, and behold, there was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water. And he ate and drank, and lay down again. And the angel of the LORD came again a second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, else the journey will be too great for you.” And he arose, and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb the mount of God.
Another Old Testament type is the Passover. In Exodus 12:7-8, God told Moses to mark the doors of the Jewish homes with the blood of the slain lamb, using a hyssop branch, and to eat the lamb, with bitter herbs, as well, so that they and their children could live, before finally leaving Egypt for the Promised Land. Just so, we are commanded by Jesus, the slain Lamb of the New Testament, to eat His body and to drink His blood, so that we can live forever in the real Promised Land, Heaven. Jesus was given bitter vinegar to drink during the crucifixion, with a hyssop branch. In Christianity, the Eucharist at Mass has replaced the Jewish Passover meal. The Church is now the new Israel. In none of the gospel narratives is an ovine passover lamb mentioned during the Last Supper. Why? Because Jesus is the Passover Lamb for all time. A lot of non-Catholics say that the Eucharist is only a symbol of Jesus, but no Jewish Passover would have been a real Jewish Passover unless the REAL Passover Lamb was eaten. That means that the bread and wine the apostles ate at the Last Supper had to be the REAL Passover Lamb, or Jesus. And the bread and wine we now consume at Mass is now the same Eucharist, or Jesus. Jewish people still eat lamb on Passover today.
Originally Posted by total relism
My understanding of it and the rest of the bible does disagree with that position.
Well, starting in Genesis 14:18, Melchizidek, the High Priest, offers bread and wine as sacrifice. The Bible says in Hebrews 7:17 that Jesus is priest forever, in the line of Melchizidek. Melchizidek is a biblical type (foreshadowing) of Jesus. A biblical type is an OT person or event that prefigures a person or event in the New Testament. Jesus offered Himself at the Last Supper in the form of bread and wine, so He is both priest and victim.
It’s also important to remember that just as Adam and Eve allowed sin to enter the world by physically eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Mary gives us the fruit of the cross aka the Tree of Life, which is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist for us to physically eat, thus overcoming sin and allowing our salvation. The devil goes around as a roaring lion seeking to devour us; Jesus, on the other hand, goes around like the Lamb of God seeking for us to devour His flesh to overcome the devil.
In Leviticus 24:1-8, God directs the Israelites to create the Bread of the Presence (see also Exodus 25:30, Exodus 35:13, Exodus 39:36, Numbers 4:7, 1 Samuel 21:6, 1 Kings 7:48, 2 Chronicles 4:19, 1 Maccabees 1:22, 2 Maccabees 10:3, Matthew 12:4, Mark 2:26, Luke 6:4, & Hebrews 9:2:
The LORD said to Moses, "Command the people of Israel to bring you pure oil from beaten olives for the lamp, that A LIGHT MAY BE KEPT BURNING CONTINUALLY. Outside the veil of the testimony, in the tent of meeting, Aaron shall keep it in order from evening to morning before the LORD continually; it shall be a statute FOREVER throughout your generations. He shall keep the lamps in order upon the lampstand of pure gold before the LORD continually."And you shall take FINE FLOUR, and bake twelve cakes of it; two tenths of an ephah shall be in each cake. And you shall set them in two rows, six in a row, upon the table of pure gold. And you shall put pure frankINCENSE with each row, that it may go with the BREAD as a memorial portion to be offered by fire to the LORD. EVERY SABBATH day Aaron shall set it in order before the LORD continually on behalf of the people of Israel as A COVENANT FOREVER.
In the Catholic Church, there is a lamp that burns continually near the tabernacle where the Eucharist is kept, behind a veil, in a golden tabernacle. During the Mass on the Lord’s Day, it is placed on the altar, or table for sacrifice, with incense. And according to Jesus in Luke 22:19-20, the bread that is now become his body (his real PRESENCE) and the wine that is now become His blood is to be a memorial sacrificial meal for the New Covenant that also forgives sins. There are LOTS of parallels here between the Bread of the Presence and the Eucharist.
When Elijah was fleeing from Jezebel, he ate cake from heaven, and was able to survive for 40 days and 40 nights on it. And that is definitely a huge hint that those of us who eat bread from heaven at Mass have strength for the journey!
1 Kings 19:5-8: And he lay down and slept under a broom tree; and behold, an angel touched him, and said to him, “Arise and eat.” And he looked, and behold, there was at his head a cake baked on hot stones and a jar of water. And he ate and drank, and lay down again. And the angel of the LORD came again a second time, and touched him, and said, “Arise and eat, else the journey will be too great for you.” And he arose, and ate and drank, and went in the strength of that food forty days and forty nights to Horeb the mount of God.
Another Old Testament type is the Passover. In Exodus 12:7-8, God told Moses to mark the doors of the Jewish homes with the blood of the slain lamb, using a hyssop branch, and to eat the lamb, with bitter herbs, as well, so that they and their children could live, before finally leaving Egypt for the Promised Land. Just so, we are commanded by Jesus, the slain Lamb of the New Testament, to eat His body and to drink His blood, so that we can live forever in the real Promised Land, Heaven. Jesus was given bitter vinegar to drink during the crucifixion, with a hyssop branch. In Christianity, the Eucharist at Mass has replaced the Jewish Passover meal. The Church is now the new Israel. In none of the gospel narratives is an ovine passover lamb mentioned during the Last Supper. Why? Because Jesus is the Passover Lamb for all time. A lot of non-Catholics say that the Eucharist is only a symbol of Jesus, but no Jewish Passover would have been a real Jewish Passover unless the REAL Passover Lamb was eaten. That means that the bread and wine the apostles ate at the Last Supper had to be the REAL Passover Lamb, or Jesus. And the bread and wine we now consume at Mass is now the same Eucharist, or Jesus. Jewish people still eat lamb on Passover today.
K
KP3243
Guest
in the Old Testament is the manna from Heaven. In Exodus 16:4ff, God feeds the Israelites struggling in the desert with bread from Heaven. The Israelites were forbidden from storing more than one day’s supply of the manna (except for the day before the Sabbath), so that they would learn to trust in God’s providence. Just so, Jesus feeds us with the bread of heaven, His body and Blood, while we struggle in our lives, which can certainly resemble wandering in a desert at times. When we say the “Our Father” prayer – “Give us this day our daily bread”- we are asking God to give us the Eucharist daily, just like God gave the Jews in the desert their manna daily. Paul calls manna in the Old Testament “supernatural food” in 1 Corinthians 10:3, and how much more supernatural the Eucharist is, since all Old Testament types are imperfect and point to the perfect (Jesus) in the New Testament!
Even the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem points to the reality of His Body being the bread of life come down from heaven. Why? Because the name “Bethlehem” is a Jewish word that means “House of Bread.” And after Jesus was born, Mary placed him in a manger, which is a feeding trough for sheep to come and eat out of!
In 1 Corinthians 15:45, Jesus is described as “the new Adam”, meaning that through Adam sin entered the world, and through Jesus salvation entered the world. However, there is more to it than that. Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and died as a result. Conversely, Jesus was hanged on a tree (Acts 10:39); He commanded us to eat of the fruit of this tree (his Eucharistic flesh) at the Last Supper, so that we will live forever and never die.
In the New Testament, there are also several types of the Eucharist. At the wedding feast at Cana, in John 2, Jesus changes ordinary water into wine. Jesus describes himself as the bridegroom of the Church in Luke 5:34-35. It is no coincidence that His first public miracle took place at a wedding, where He changed one substance into another, thus prefiguring the transubstantiation of the wine into blood at the Last Supper. This is a prefigurement of the heavenly marriage supper of the Lamb, as told to us in Revelation 19:9.
In Revelation 3:20, it says:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Catholics eat with Jesus (sharing a meal together in fellowship is very Jewish!) at every Mass!
Revelation 2:17 says that to him who conquers, Jesus will give him some of the “hidden manna.” What is hidden manna? Manna is a Jewish term for “What’s that?” The Jews didn’t know what the white stuff on the ground was in the desert, and so they asked each other “What’s that?”, or “Manna?” But Revelation is very New Testament, and there is no more Old Testament Manna anymore. But for sure, there is the New Testament Eucharist, which does not look any different than a regular piece of bread - therefore, it can be described as "hidden manna."The Eucharist IS Jesus, who also didn’t look any different from a regular man, and therefore his Godliness was “hidden” from the sight of man. The Pharisees never would have done to Jesus what they did if they could have seen who He really was. Similarly, Protestants and atheists who badmouth Catholics for believing in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist are guilty of profaning the body and blood of Jesus, hidden in the Eucharist. Why? Because they walk by sight, not by faith, whereas Catholics walk by faith, not by sight when it comes to the Eucharist (2 Corinthians 5:7). It’s also why we cannot allow Protestants and non Catholic participate in the Communion line.
Another example is the multiplication of the loaves, in John 6:11, where 5000 people were fed with only 5 barley loaves. Just as thousands were filled with just five loaves, Jesus feeds millions of believers throughout the centuries with his Eucharistic flesh.
Even the birth of Jesus in Bethlehem points to the reality of His Body being the bread of life come down from heaven. Why? Because the name “Bethlehem” is a Jewish word that means “House of Bread.” And after Jesus was born, Mary placed him in a manger, which is a feeding trough for sheep to come and eat out of!
In 1 Corinthians 15:45, Jesus is described as “the new Adam”, meaning that through Adam sin entered the world, and through Jesus salvation entered the world. However, there is more to it than that. Adam ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and died as a result. Conversely, Jesus was hanged on a tree (Acts 10:39); He commanded us to eat of the fruit of this tree (his Eucharistic flesh) at the Last Supper, so that we will live forever and never die.
In the New Testament, there are also several types of the Eucharist. At the wedding feast at Cana, in John 2, Jesus changes ordinary water into wine. Jesus describes himself as the bridegroom of the Church in Luke 5:34-35. It is no coincidence that His first public miracle took place at a wedding, where He changed one substance into another, thus prefiguring the transubstantiation of the wine into blood at the Last Supper. This is a prefigurement of the heavenly marriage supper of the Lamb, as told to us in Revelation 19:9.
In Revelation 3:20, it says:
Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
Catholics eat with Jesus (sharing a meal together in fellowship is very Jewish!) at every Mass!
Revelation 2:17 says that to him who conquers, Jesus will give him some of the “hidden manna.” What is hidden manna? Manna is a Jewish term for “What’s that?” The Jews didn’t know what the white stuff on the ground was in the desert, and so they asked each other “What’s that?”, or “Manna?” But Revelation is very New Testament, and there is no more Old Testament Manna anymore. But for sure, there is the New Testament Eucharist, which does not look any different than a regular piece of bread - therefore, it can be described as "hidden manna."The Eucharist IS Jesus, who also didn’t look any different from a regular man, and therefore his Godliness was “hidden” from the sight of man. The Pharisees never would have done to Jesus what they did if they could have seen who He really was. Similarly, Protestants and atheists who badmouth Catholics for believing in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist are guilty of profaning the body and blood of Jesus, hidden in the Eucharist. Why? Because they walk by sight, not by faith, whereas Catholics walk by faith, not by sight when it comes to the Eucharist (2 Corinthians 5:7). It’s also why we cannot allow Protestants and non Catholic participate in the Communion line.
Another example is the multiplication of the loaves, in John 6:11, where 5000 people were fed with only 5 barley loaves. Just as thousands were filled with just five loaves, Jesus feeds millions of believers throughout the centuries with his Eucharistic flesh.
U
UbiCaritas15
Guest
This is my favorite: “In the year that King Uzzi’ah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim; each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: ‘Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.’” Isa 6:1-7
Why, you ask?
Deut 4:24
Heb 12:29
Our God is a consuming fire
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory.”
And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!” Then flew one of the seraphim to me, having in his hand a burning coal which he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth, and said: ‘Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin forgiven.’” Isa 6:1-7
Why, you ask?
Deut 4:24
Heb 12:29
Our God is a consuming fire
K
KP3243
Guest
In the Old Testament, Exodus 24:8, Moses sealed the Covenant by sprinkling the Israelites with REAL BLOOD, not symbolic blood, and Jesus also sealed the New Covenant with REAL BLOOD, not symbolic blood.
Jesus goes to great lengths to tell his believers about the Eucharist. He mentions both the manna in the desert and the multiplication of the loaves as bread that only provided for temporal needs. He then explained that His body and blood was “real food”, & would give us eternal life, not just fill our stomachs. The Jews who heard him said that it was a “hard saying”, and walked away. Why would they walk away and leave someone who they had seen raise the dead, multiply the loaves, cure the sick, walk on water, etc., if “eating his body” and “drinking his blood” was only a symbolic statement? They understood his meaning perfectly, that it was a literal statement, and not symbolic. To literally “eat someone’s flesh” and to “drink someone’s blood” was a pejorative term in those days, as seen in Isaiah 9:20, Jeremiah 46:10, and Deuteronomy 32:42. We know from Mark 4:34 that Jesus always explained his parables to his disciples, but here he did not explain anything. Why? Because John 6 is NOT a parable, but is telling us all about how He will give us His REAL FLESH TO EAT!
Jesus couldn’t have been more outspoken about the reality of the Eucharist being His actual body and blood. The key scriptures are as follows:
John 6: 30-66: So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written,
Jesus goes to great lengths to tell his believers about the Eucharist. He mentions both the manna in the desert and the multiplication of the loaves as bread that only provided for temporal needs. He then explained that His body and blood was “real food”, & would give us eternal life, not just fill our stomachs. The Jews who heard him said that it was a “hard saying”, and walked away. Why would they walk away and leave someone who they had seen raise the dead, multiply the loaves, cure the sick, walk on water, etc., if “eating his body” and “drinking his blood” was only a symbolic statement? They understood his meaning perfectly, that it was a literal statement, and not symbolic. To literally “eat someone’s flesh” and to “drink someone’s blood” was a pejorative term in those days, as seen in Isaiah 9:20, Jeremiah 46:10, and Deuteronomy 32:42. We know from Mark 4:34 that Jesus always explained his parables to his disciples, but here he did not explain anything. Why? Because John 6 is NOT a parable, but is telling us all about how He will give us His REAL FLESH TO EAT!
Jesus couldn’t have been more outspoken about the reality of the Eucharist being His actual body and blood. The key scriptures are as follows:
John 6: 30-66: So they said to him, “Then what sign do you do, that we may see, and believe you? What work do you perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written,
He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" Jesus then said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world." They said to him, "Lord, give us this bread always." Jesus said to them, "I AM the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day." The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, "I am the bread which came down from heaven." They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, I have come down from heaven’?” Jesus answered them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, `And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. I AM the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I AM the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum. Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, “This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?” But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that would betray him. And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” After this many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him.
K
KP3243
Guest
An important note is that “I AM” is the name of God, as told to Moses in Exodus 3:14. Here Jesus uses the name of God to say that “I AM (GOD is) the bread of life.” Also notice above that if you eat Jesus’ flesh and drink Jesus’ blood, you abide in Him, and He in you. Why is this important? Because of
John 15:4-7: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
John 15:4-7: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
K
KP3243
Guest
In 1 Corinthians 10:16-21, Paul says the following:
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
Here Paul talks about participating in the body and blood of Christ by receiving Holy Communion. This brings up an important point. The sacrifice of the Mass is not another sacrifice of Jesus; it is the same one repeated over and over again, through space and time. The key word is SACRIFICE, as in “This is my body…which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Verse 18 above mentions the Jews eating the sacrifice of the altar being partners. Of course, the old animal sacrifices of the altar have now been replaced by the one pure sacrifice of the altar, Jesus Christ, as foretold in Malachi 1:11. So many people just think of Communion as a memorial only, but it is much more than just a memorial. It is the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary.
Additionally, in verse 21 above, Paul talks about not partaking of the table of demons AND the table of the Lord. That is why the Church says that one must go to confession first and be absolved of any mortal sins before receiving Holy Communion.
St. Paul also speaks about the reality of Jesus’ body and blood in the Eucharist, in 1 Corinthians 11:23-30:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
How can one profane the body and the blood of the Lord if the Eucharist is only a symbol? People can get sick and die if they do not discern the body of the Lord when they consume the Eucharist. They actually eat and drink judgment upon themselves. How can this be if it is only a symbol?
On the road to Emmaus, the resurrected Jesus appears to some disciples, but his identity is “hidden” from them. Then He discusses the scriptures that pertain to Him (the Liturgy of the Word), and then sits down to table and celebrates the breaking of the bread (the Liturgy of the Eucharist) with his disciples. At the moment of Consecration, the true identity of Jesus is made known to His disciples, and then he disappears (becomes “hidden”). So we see here that the Last Supper is misnamed, because in reality, the Last Supper was the First Eucharist, and at Emmaus one of the first things Jesus did was to celebrate Mass AGAIN with the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the 2 components of the Holy Mass! And the term “hidden manna” is now apparent as to its meaning - Jesus is “hidden”, or truly present, in the Bread from Heaven!
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar? What do I imply then? That food offered to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be partners with demons. You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons.
Here Paul talks about participating in the body and blood of Christ by receiving Holy Communion. This brings up an important point. The sacrifice of the Mass is not another sacrifice of Jesus; it is the same one repeated over and over again, through space and time. The key word is SACRIFICE, as in “This is my body…which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Verse 18 above mentions the Jews eating the sacrifice of the altar being partners. Of course, the old animal sacrifices of the altar have now been replaced by the one pure sacrifice of the altar, Jesus Christ, as foretold in Malachi 1:11. So many people just think of Communion as a memorial only, but it is much more than just a memorial. It is the unbloody sacrifice of Calvary.
Additionally, in verse 21 above, Paul talks about not partaking of the table of demons AND the table of the Lord. That is why the Church says that one must go to confession first and be absolved of any mortal sins before receiving Holy Communion.
St. Paul also speaks about the reality of Jesus’ body and blood in the Eucharist, in 1 Corinthians 11:23-30:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died.
How can one profane the body and the blood of the Lord if the Eucharist is only a symbol? People can get sick and die if they do not discern the body of the Lord when they consume the Eucharist. They actually eat and drink judgment upon themselves. How can this be if it is only a symbol?
On the road to Emmaus, the resurrected Jesus appears to some disciples, but his identity is “hidden” from them. Then He discusses the scriptures that pertain to Him (the Liturgy of the Word), and then sits down to table and celebrates the breaking of the bread (the Liturgy of the Eucharist) with his disciples. At the moment of Consecration, the true identity of Jesus is made known to His disciples, and then he disappears (becomes “hidden”). So we see here that the Last Supper is misnamed, because in reality, the Last Supper was the First Eucharist, and at Emmaus one of the first things Jesus did was to celebrate Mass AGAIN with the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist, the 2 components of the Holy Mass! And the term “hidden manna” is now apparent as to its meaning - Jesus is “hidden”, or truly present, in the Bread from Heaven!
K
KP3243
Guest
So scripture backs the Real Presence in the Eucharist up.
I
Isaiah45_9
Guest
…
Another novelty of the 1,500’s… Did you know that Christians were persecuted by governments because they thought that we were cannibals?
As soon as the 2nd century (~150 AD):
Justin Martyr and his 1st Apology:
Church History and the correct interpretation of the Bible is against your interpretation and that of like minded individuals that hold to it. Even Luther was against it!
What 'm saying is the date is not certain, and the date doesn’t particularly matter. The Church calendar is just fine, and we are satisfied with the rendering of Dec. 25th there.
We use scripture, yes, as the final norm, but that doesn’t exclude using things outside the Bible, and it certainly doesn’t exclude the teaching authority of the Church. I am not bound to believe Jesus was born on Dec. 25th (the Gregorian calendar didn’t exist then, anyway). I am bound to believe that “He was born of the Virgin Mary,…”.
Jon
K
KP3243
Guest
Hi Jon, this wasn’t directed towards you, I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.
T
total_relism
Guest
.
not at all, were not allowed to debate here what are you doing?. The bible comes from god not man. The church of its day recognized what was inspired, they did not inspire it [man authority] I have studied the translation of bible etc and would love to provide some sources on this topic if you wish. I believe it is 100% ant biblical and historical to believe the church inspired thew bible. Actually a good place to start [references included] would be here
under has the bible been translated accurately.
forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?143902-responding-to-common-objections-to-bible&highlight=
nowhere does the bible say we must celebrate Christmas,neither does it give a perfect day when it is. When the bible says something, than as a protestant we know its true. If the bible said celebrate Christmas [not in bible] at this date, than i would. It is simply a holiday,nothing more.
T
total_relism
Guest
I have to disagree, as i said before you cant debate here. When i am all done learning my questions and catholic doctrine i would love to debate with you on this point. In fact I could set it up know if you wish to start in future soon.
1v1 debates are great on this forum
twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?339-Garbarsardar-s-Fight-Club
its called the fight club, i have done dozens, we could discuss or debate our differences there with no hindrance. A great topic title would be “Does scripture backs the Real Presence in the Eucharist up?”
Usually i debate atheist evolutionist and Muslims so this would be a interesting first.
T
total_relism
Guest
first i care not of luther. I disagree with you and offer you the same i did KP above.
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
(Removed quote of deleted post)
THIS IS MY BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD
A Catholic Understanding of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
by Randy Carson :tiphat:
In the sixth chapter of John, Jesus makes the following statement: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If a man eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jn 6:51 (all scripture quotations from the NIV)
Just exactly what did Jesus mean when he said, “this bread is my flesh”? Many people argue that Jesus was only speaking symbolically when He said that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Is this true?
We can discover the true meaning of Jesus’ words by examining the reactions of the crowd who heard his teaching with their own ears, from the infallible word of God contained in the New Testament, and from the writings and teachings of the early Church.
Reaction of the Eyewitnesses
Speaking before a crowd assembled at a synagogue in Capernaum, Jesus delivered a teaching that has divided the Catholic and Protestant churches since the time of the Reformation. 1500 years earlier, his words had a similarly divisive effect on the audience who heard them for the very first time.
After Jesus declared Himself to be “the living bread that came down from heaven,” the very next verse of scripture tells us: “Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” Why were they arguing? If they understood Jesus to be speaking metaphorically, then there would have been hardly an eyebrow raised. For example, on other occasions, Jesus said, “I am the gate for the sheep” (Jn 10:7) and “I am the true vine” (Jn 15:1) but on those occasions, the listeners easily discerned that Jesus was speaking metaphorically. In contrast, an argument did break out when Jesus said, “this bread is my flesh,” and this indicates that those in the crowd held different opinions about what he meant. Some said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? He’s crazy!” while others may have responded, “Of course he can’t do that…his words must have a symbolic meaning!” The one group rejected Jesus’ ability to give us his body and blood as real food and drink while the other missed his true meaning altogether. Either way, the crowd was divided.
Of course, Jesus knew what they were saying amongst themselves, and if it was merely his intent to draw a symbolic parallel between his flesh and the bread of heaven, he could have put an end to their misunderstanding immediately. Instead, Jesus reiterated and strengthened the literal meaning of his words by declaring,
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Our forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever. He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.” (Jn 6:53-58)Rather than quieting the crowd which had broken out into arguments about what he had just told them, Jesus pressed his point home even more emphatically: “my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.” In fact, whereas he had initially said positively, ”If a man eats of this bread, he will live forever,” now he has just stated the negative result of failing to do so: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” Thus, Jesus has clarified his meaning by stating what happens if we do – and do not – eat his flesh and drink his blood.
The next verse is particularly revealing: “On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” (Jn 6:60) Notice that it was not Jesus’ typical enemies, the Pharisees and Sadducees, who rejected his teaching on this occasion but his disciples – those believers who followed him from place to place and hailed him as the Messiah. They had seen Jesus perform many miracles and heard him teach wondrous things. But this was too much even for them.
“Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said this to them, “Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe” (Jn 6:61-64)Not only does Jesus continue to uphold the literal meaning of his teaching, but also he presses even further by asking that if this bothers them, what will they do when they see him ascend to heaven? Protestants do not deny the ascension of the resurrected Jesus, yet here Jesus places two key truths side by side. He is saying, in effect, “If eating my flesh causes you theological problems, just wait until you see what else I have planned…you ain’t seen nothing yet!”
The gospel continues: “From this time, many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God” (Jn 6:66-69).
(cont.)
THIS IS MY BODY, THIS IS MY BLOOD
A Catholic Understanding of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
by Randy Carson :tiphat:
In the sixth chapter of John, Jesus makes the following statement: “I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If a man eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” Jn 6:51 (all scripture quotations from the NIV)
Just exactly what did Jesus mean when he said, “this bread is my flesh”? Many people argue that Jesus was only speaking symbolically when He said that we must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Is this true?
We can discover the true meaning of Jesus’ words by examining the reactions of the crowd who heard his teaching with their own ears, from the infallible word of God contained in the New Testament, and from the writings and teachings of the early Church.
Reaction of the Eyewitnesses
Speaking before a crowd assembled at a synagogue in Capernaum, Jesus delivered a teaching that has divided the Catholic and Protestant churches since the time of the Reformation. 1500 years earlier, his words had a similarly divisive effect on the audience who heard them for the very first time.
After Jesus declared Himself to be “the living bread that came down from heaven,” the very next verse of scripture tells us: “Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” Why were they arguing? If they understood Jesus to be speaking metaphorically, then there would have been hardly an eyebrow raised. For example, on other occasions, Jesus said, “I am the gate for the sheep” (Jn 10:7) and “I am the true vine” (Jn 15:1) but on those occasions, the listeners easily discerned that Jesus was speaking metaphorically. In contrast, an argument did break out when Jesus said, “this bread is my flesh,” and this indicates that those in the crowd held different opinions about what he meant. Some said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat? He’s crazy!” while others may have responded, “Of course he can’t do that…his words must have a symbolic meaning!” The one group rejected Jesus’ ability to give us his body and blood as real food and drink while the other missed his true meaning altogether. Either way, the crowd was divided.
Of course, Jesus knew what they were saying amongst themselves, and if it was merely his intent to draw a symbolic parallel between his flesh and the bread of heaven, he could have put an end to their misunderstanding immediately. Instead, Jesus reiterated and strengthened the literal meaning of his words by declaring,
“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Our forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever. He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.” (Jn 6:53-58)Rather than quieting the crowd which had broken out into arguments about what he had just told them, Jesus pressed his point home even more emphatically: “my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.” In fact, whereas he had initially said positively, ”If a man eats of this bread, he will live forever,” now he has just stated the negative result of failing to do so: “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” Thus, Jesus has clarified his meaning by stating what happens if we do – and do not – eat his flesh and drink his blood.
The next verse is particularly revealing: “On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?” (Jn 6:60) Notice that it was not Jesus’ typical enemies, the Pharisees and Sadducees, who rejected his teaching on this occasion but his disciples – those believers who followed him from place to place and hailed him as the Messiah. They had seen Jesus perform many miracles and heard him teach wondrous things. But this was too much even for them.
“Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said this to them, “Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe” (Jn 6:61-64)Not only does Jesus continue to uphold the literal meaning of his teaching, but also he presses even further by asking that if this bothers them, what will they do when they see him ascend to heaven? Protestants do not deny the ascension of the resurrected Jesus, yet here Jesus places two key truths side by side. He is saying, in effect, “If eating my flesh causes you theological problems, just wait until you see what else I have planned…you ain’t seen nothing yet!”
The gospel continues: “From this time, many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God” (Jn 6:66-69).
(cont.)
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