Catholics and Lutherans to worship together at Reformation anniversary

[Genesis315]

I’ve known lots and lots of “traditionalist” Catholics (and Orthodox for that matter, but that’s pretty off topic) so at this point stuff like the above tends to get little more than a yawn out of me.

On the other hand, I’m guessing that you’ve had non-traditionalist Catholics tell you that you’re wrong lots and lots of times, so I’m not going to presume that it would change your mind if I told you.

Blessings,
Peter Jericho

I’m just a Catholic, so can you just explain to me why what I said was wrong?

Lutheran rejection of Catholic dogma is a fundamental impediment to unity, right?

Are Lutherans repenting of these things by praying that prayer? If so, doesn’t that mean they should convert?

 

[7_Sorrows]

Possibly.

The question I have, that nobody seems to want to ask, is will Lutherans join Catholics in celebrating the anniversary of the Council of Trent?

when is that?

 

[Peter_J]

when is that?

OK, maybe I’m jumping the gun by asking three decades in advance, but it’s a question of principle!

 

[Peter_J]

can you just explain to me why what I said was wrong?

Thank you for your interest. However, the internet being what it is, I think it’s best to be a bit selective w.r.t. whom I partner up with – not to mention the fact that we would be taking, as a starting point, the notion that if a Lutheran is “honestly repentant” then he/she would convert to Catholicism, and that’s a statement that I do not wish to give honor to.

Blessings again.

 

[JonNC]

I’m just a Catholic, so can you just explain to me why what I said was wrong?

Lutheran rejection of Catholic dogma is a fundamental impediment to unity, right?

Are Lutherans repenting of these things by praying that prayer? If so, doesn’t that mean they should convert?

I’ll let Peter answer the first question
On the second: Lutherans only reject the dogmas in your communion that are heterodox.
The major impediments (from both sides) to communion is, 1st, the failure to recognize that members of the other side are of Christ, through baptism, and are therefore members of His one True Church. An example of this is calling the others liars, or claiming they are calling Christ a liar. The second is when one or both sides fail to prayerfully dialogue from a position of steadfastness and charity.

On number three, the implied characterization of Lutherans as not actually praying for repentance of these thing, of not being sincere in confession because we choose to remain in the Lutheran tradition within the Church also implies the ability of one to judge the heart of another. AFAIK,there are no facts in evidence that anyone on this thread has that capability.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

OK, maybe I’m jumping the gun by asking three decades in advance, but it’s a question of principle!

I would join I the commemoration of the Council of Trent, if I am still here, with the prayerful hope that unity is achieved by then.

Jon

 

[FollowChrist34]

I would join I the commemoration of the Council of Trent, if I am still here, with the prayerful hope that unity is achieved by then.

Jon

Wow, if you’re up for that, I’ll celebrate the Reformation - we’ll call it even.

 

[JonNC]

Wow, if you’re up for that, I’ll celebrate the Reformation - we’ll call it even.

Note I said commemorate, not celebrate. I think we shoul not celebrate our differences, but we can commemorate events in our mutual history, to learn from the , grow from them, learn and grot from each other.
If we love each other as Christ commands, we commemorate events together in that love.

Jon

 

[total_Catholic]

Possibly.

The question I have, that nobody seems to want to ask, is will Lutherans join Catholics in celebrating the anniversary of the Council of Trent?

Are you kidding? To do that pride would have to be swallowed and that is all the “reformation” comes down to. Pride.

 

[total_Catholic]

I never called ANYONE here a liar. I simply stressed that ANY person that says Matthew 16:18 is NOT Jesus giving Peter the authority on Earth to bind and loose in Christ’s church therefore setting up the Petrine ministry continuing via universally through the line of successors after him as Bishops of Rome would be saying the scriptures are wrong and since those words ARE in red, then yes, that is exactly what Our Lord is saying and those who say otherwise are indeed saying that Jesus isn’t telling that as truth.

Hope that helps and if I have offended anyone, I apologize. I don’t apologize for defending my faith though. Peace and blessings.

 

[FollowChrist34]

View attachment 22786

 

[Genesis315]

I’ll let Peter answer the first question
On the second: Lutherans only reject the dogmas in your communion that are heterodox.
The major impediments (from both sides) to communion is, 1st, the failure to recognize that members of the other side are of Christ, through baptism, and are therefore members of His one True Church. An example of this is calling the others liars, or claiming they are calling Christ a liar. The second is when one or both sides fail to prayerfully dialogue from a position of steadfastness and charity.

On number three, the implied characterization of Lutherans as not actually praying for repentance of these thing, of not being sincere in confession because we choose to remain in the Lutheran tradition within the Church also implies the ability of one to judge the heart of another. AFAIK,there are no facts in evidence that anyone on this thread has that capability.

Jon

If you go back to the first post I made where I criticized these prayers, you show the very point I was trying to make. We can’t pray these prayers together because we are not of the same mind as to their meaning. We disagree as to what the “insights” worthy of thanks gained from the Reformation are. We can’t therefore give thanks for them together. You wouldn’t give thanks for the dogmatic definitions of Trent you consider heretical and we can’t give thanks for the Protestant doctrines that we consider heretical. The prayer implies a common thanksgiving that doesn’t exist.

Again, we disagree as to what is ultimately the cause of separation. From the Lutheran perspective, the fundamental obstacle is the heterodox doctrines of Catholics. From the Catholic perspective, it is the heterodox doctrines of Lutherans. We are supposedly making a mutual repentance of those ways of thinking that lead to disunity, but Lutherans won’t be repenting of their doctrines that are at variance with Catholic doctrine (if they did, they would be Catholic) and Catholics won’t be repenting of their doctrines that are at variance with Lutheran doctrine (if they did, they would be Lutheran).

I’m not calling anyone a liar–but neither of us would not be honest with each other if we prayed these prayers together.

 

[total_Catholic]

If you go back to the first post I made where I criticized these prayers, you show the very point I was trying to make. We can’t pray these prayers together because we are not of the same mind as to their meaning. We disagree as to what the “insights” worthy of thanks gained from the Reformation are. We can’t therefore give thanks for them together. You wouldn’t give thanks for the dogmatic definitions of Trent you consider heretical and we can’t give thanks for the Protestant doctrines that we consider heretical. The prayer implies a common thanksgiving that doesn’t exist.

Again, we disagree as to what is ultimately the cause of separation. From the Lutheran perspective, the fundamental obstacle is the heterodox doctrines of Catholics. From the Catholic perspective, it is the heterodox doctrines of Lutherans. We are supposedly making a mutual repentance of those ways of thinking that lead to disunity, but Lutherans won’t be repenting of their doctrines that are at variance with Catholic doctrine (if they did, they would be Catholic) and Catholics won’t be repenting of their doctrines that are at variance with Lutheran doctrine (if they did, they would be Lutheran).

I’m not calling anyone a liar–but neither of us would not be honest with each other if we prayed these prayers together.

Exactly, the Catholic Church never once was in schism, despite what our eastern friends may think.

 

[Peter_J]

Wow, if you’re up for that, I’ll celebrate the Reformation - we’ll call it even.

That sounds about right. I think an objection was raised that “swallowing pride” would be needed, but I would call that even too: it’s a point that applies to people on either side joining in the other side’s commemorations.

But in any case, I’m pretty much taking a wait and see approach to this whole topic.

 

[JonNC]

Exactly, the Catholic Church never once was in schism, despite what our eastern friends may think.

You’re in schism from them, and us. Schism is two way. Not one way

Jon

PS. Triumphalism, OTOH, is one way, but can come from any direction

 

[Don_Ruggero]

The prayers contain no theological errors and, as a priest, I have absolutely no problem praying them. The language and concepts that they employ are in accord with the conclusions already reached in dialogue between Catholics and Lutherans and the texts of the common prayer were very carefully crafted by those entrusted with their composition.

The work of the joint commission from the Holy See:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

and from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/upload/Declaration_on_the_Way-for-Website.pdf

Personally, I look forward to participating in the commemorations that will be co-organised by Catholics around the world. I have the most profound gratitude to His Holiness, who has made Catholic Lutheran relations a priority of his papacy, and His Eminence, Kurt Cardinal Koch, for his leadership and tremendous efforts.

 

[Reuben_J]

Possibly.

The question I have, that nobody seems to want to ask, is will Lutherans join Catholics in celebrating the anniversary of the Council of Trent?

Should I say, exactly?

 

[Reuben_J]

If you go back to the first post I made where I criticized these prayers, you show the very point I was trying to make. We can’t pray these prayers together because we are not of the same mind as to their meaning. We disagree as to what the “insights” worthy of thanks gained from the Reformation are. We can’t therefore give thanks for them together. You wouldn’t give thanks for the dogmatic definitions of Trent you consider heretical and we can’t give thanks for the Protestant doctrines that we consider heretical. **The prayer implies a common thanksgiving that doesn’t exist.
**
Again, we disagree as to what is ultimately the cause of separation. From the Lutheran perspective, the fundamental obstacle is the heterodox doctrines of Catholics. From the Catholic perspective, it is the heterodox doctrines of Lutherans. We are supposedly making a mutual repentance of those ways of thinking that lead to disunity, but Lutherans won’t be repenting of their doctrines that are at variance with Catholic doctrine (if they did, they would be Catholic) and Catholics won’t be repenting of their doctrines that are at variance with Lutheran doctrine (if they did, they would be Lutheran).

I’m not calling anyone a liar–but neither of us would not be honest with each other if we prayed these prayers together.

I am with this now, but I am waiting for the theologians to explain it, if there is any other way one can go around it.

 

[JonNC]

I am with this now, but I am waiting for the theologians to explain it, if there is any other way one can go around it.

Father Don, above, does exactly that.

Jon

 

[Don_Ruggero]

It would be like Catholics and Orthodox worshipping together on the day the schism occurred, it doesn’t sound right. I’m sure the Lutherans don’t mind but why should Catholics do this?

But John Paul II spoke of this very eloquently in Ut Unum Sint, paragraph 24:

And how could I ever forget taking part in the Eucharistic Liturgy in the Church of Saint George at the Ecumenical Patriarchate (30 November 1979), and the service held in Saint Peter’s Basilica during the visit to Rome of my Venerable Brother, Patriarch Dimitrios I (6 December 1987)? On that occasion, at the Altar of the Confession, we recited together the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed according to its original Greek text. It is hard to describe in a few words the unique nature of each of these occasions of prayer. Given the differing ways in which each of these meetings was conditioned by past events, each had its own special eloquence. They have all become part of the Church’s memory as she is guided by the Paraclete to seek the full unity of all believers in Christ.

Why would the pope not go to a place, on a specific anniversary, in order to heal the past? It is not to reenact what happened then, after all, it is to overcome it in the present and to move forward.