Catholics and Lutherans to worship together at Reformation anniversary

[LordHaveMercy]

hope you will choose to be part of it. I hope you are blessed to be in a diocese where, with and under your bishop, there will be many wonderful opportunities to jointly commemorate next year’s anniversary with our Lutheran brothers and sisters. I hope this will be so for all the dioceses in North America as it will be for those in Europe where the issues of division first arose and where, please God, the division will ultimately first be healed…in those very places scared by tragic history…in Rome, in Germany, and beyond.

Thank you for the dialogue, Father. While you said responding to me serves no purpose and is a waste of your time, I have always found it beneficial to dialogue with those might see things differently than me, so I thoroughly appreciated this conversation.

I am bound by the 4th commandment to honor my Father and Mother, so I cannot take part in celebrating an event that ultimately led to them living without the sacraments of confirmation, Eucharist and reconciliation. However, I will continue to pray that all of us, all of us, will be able to celebrate together in Heaven.

 

[JonNC]

Thank you for the dialogue, Father. While you said responding to me serves no purpose and is a waste of your time, I have always found it beneficial to dialogue with those might see things differently than me, so I thoroughly appreciated this conversation.

I am bound by the 4th commandment to honor my Father and Mother, so I cannot take part in celebrating an event that ultimately led to them living without the sacraments of confirmation, Eucharist and reconciliation. However, I will continue to pray that all of us, all of us, will be able to celebrate together in Heaven.

If they are Lutheran, they have all three of those. Regardless, is it not honoring your father and mother by honoring their decisions of conscience?

Jon

 

[steido01]

Thank you for the dialogue, Father. While you said responding to me serves no purpose and is a waste of your time, I have always found it beneficial to dialogue with those might see things differently than me, so I thoroughly appreciated this conversation.

I am bound by the 4th commandment to honor my Father and Mother, so I cannot take part in celebrating an event that ultimately led to them living without the sacraments of confirmation, Eucharist and reconciliation. However, I will continue to pray that all of us, all of us, will be able to celebrate together in Heaven.

Just a few thoughts to consider:

• The fourth commandment also binds us to those in authority over us, including our spiritual overseers.
• And the three commandments pertaining to God come before the seven commandments pertaining to people. Where does the Church and those called by God to be her caretakers fit?
• Without the Gospel, the Law benefits us nothing.

God bless you.

 

[CompSciGuy]

You are not correct, neither in what you propose nor in the conclusions that you draw.

However, I think you have ably demonstrated that responding to you serves no purpose for me and is valueless to you. It would, frankly, be a waste of my time and effort.

I will simply say in response: what you have written in this thread is not the thought of the Holy See or of the theological community…and that is what matters. It is the Magisterium that both safeguards the deposit of the faith and that interprets the teaching of the past in the light of the present day.

As a layman and a convert to Catholicism, you may read Ut Unum Sint and choose to see it in the light of anything you wish – but that does not mean that is how theologians, ecumenists and those who are actually engaged in these issues view the matter. For what it is worth to you, I can assure you that they don’t.

To close out this discussion: the writings you cite are not the framework for those about the present endeavors in Church unity, certainly not on the part of Rome nor on the part of the conferences of bishops throughout the world…which determine, in turn, the initiatives and work of the ecumenical office in your own diocese.

The thoughts expressed in Ut Unum Sint provide a beautiful and authoritative orientation that is distinctly different from those that preceded Vatican II. Previous dispositions have been overtaken by the mandates of the Council Fathers and the initiatives of the subsequent popes.

You may lament, as you did earlier in the thread, the truly wonderful outcome of the joint commemorations between Catholics and Lutherans next year, which will providentially follow in the wake of the Year of Mercy. That does not affect the fact that all this that is happening is the will of the Pope, that it is the will of the Holy See, that it is the course and the action that the Catholic Church is taking…in her relations with the Lutherans, with the Orthodox, with the Anglicans, and with others.

I hope you will choose to be part of it. I hope you are blessed to be in a diocese where, with and under your bishop, there will be many wonderful opportunities to jointly commemorate next year’s anniversary with our Lutheran brothers and sisters. I hope this will be so for all the dioceses in North America as it will be for those in Europe where the issues of division first arose and where, please God, the division will ultimately first be healed…in those very places scared by tragic history…in Rome, in Germany, and beyond.

Hello,

I am trying to understand where you are coming from. First, I want to know, do you believe that the theological differences that led to the reformation are important or are they unimportant? Secondly, what is it that you and others hope will come of this commemoration? Many here speak of unity. In your mind, does unity mean a reunification of the Church as one body, under the authority of the pope? In other words, are you hoping that the people who follow Luther’s sect come home to the Catholic Church? Or by unity do you mean simply a mutual respect and a relief from feelings of hostility between Lutherans and Catholics?

I also want to know, do you personally believe that the sacraments and doctrines of the Catholic Church are important for one’s salvation? Or is it only important that we have feelings of goodwill toward one another, and nothing more? I am not being facetious. The more I talk to other Catholics, the less it seems truth is important anymore, only good feelings toward one another. If I am wrong about this, I want to be corrected.

 

[Peter_J]

Truth is important.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Hello,

I am trying to understand where you are coming from. First, I want to know, do you believe that the theological differences that led to the reformation are important or are they unimportant? Secondly, what is it that you and others hope will come of this commemoration? Many here speak of unity. In your mind, does unity mean a reunification of the Church as one body, under the authority of the pope? In other words, are you hoping that the people who follow Luther’s sect come home to the Catholic Church? Or by unity do you mean simply a mutual respect and a relief from feelings of hostility between Lutherans and Catholics?

I also want to know, do you personally believe that the sacraments and doctrines of the Catholic Church are important for one’s salvation? Or is it only important that we have feelings of goodwill toward one another, and nothing more? I am not being facetious. The more I talk to other Catholics, the less it seems truth is important anymore, only good feelings toward one another. If I am wrong about this, I want to be corrected.

I beg your pardon? You are asking me, as a Catholic priest, if I personally believe that the sacraments and doctrines of the Catholic Church are important? I am speechless.

Have you not read Unitatis Redintegratio? Have you not read Ut Unum Sint?

Rather than asking me what I think or asking “other Catholics” what they think, may I suggest you would be better served by exploring the thoughts and teaching of the Holy Father? The writings published by the Holy See? The work of your own national conference of bishops? These documents reflect my thoughts, as a priest, on these issues.

Those who are working for Church unity on the Catholic side of the dialogue are not doing it in hiding. The documents and agreements resulting from now 50 years of dialogue are openly published and available to those who wish to know the mind and direction of the Holy Father and the hierarchy on these issues.

You might find this article helpful as a start: ncregister.com/daily-news/catholics-and-lutherans-find-common-ground-as-reformations-500th-anniversar

You will find links in the article to other salient documents but here is the link directly to the Holy See’s publication of From Conflict to Communion: vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/lutheran-fed-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_2013_dal-conflitto-alla-comunione_en.html

You may thoughts of Bishop Dennis Madden helpful since the contributions he oversaw unfolded under the inspiration and guidance of the dicastery of the Holy See that is responsible for dialogue, The Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity: catholicnews.com/services/englishnews/2015/catholic-lutheran-document-sums-up-agreements-maps-steps-to-full-unity.cfm

And, finally, here is the link to the appropriate document of US Conference of Catholic Bishops: usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/upload/Declaration_on_the_Way-for-Website.pdf

Many of the questions you seem to have are answered in From Conflict to Communion, which I have linked to many times in this thread. The document is quite readable and it speaks ably to the points it addresses.

 

[Reuben_J]

Catholics would commend the joint Lutheran - Catholic dialogue and understand why the Church embarked on it. Many of us do not follow it but hoping something would come out of it.

Now we are going to commemorate the Reformation. I think let it sink in. This is something big.

I love the clergies but many times they are awfully out of sync with their ordinary Catholic masses, the typical parishioners of their parish. Many times they expect these people just to understand such complicated issue and on top of that, highly theological. They get angry when ordinary Catholics show ignorance.

Catholics are taught to believe what they believe and many of them religiously stand by those. You would expect their indignation if they perceive their belief to be contradicted . These are your faithful flock. All they wish for is that the Church is always true to herself.

So educate them. Tell them. I think 99 percent of Catholics would find commemorating the Reformation pretty strange. Those documents are very long read. Have that been brought to the Catholic masses, talked about in the homilies? At least not in the same publicity as the present Year of Mercy.

Would it not have been better to declare those conclusion on some neutral ground? Or never, the Holy See is always right and Catholics because of their obligation to obedience, just simy follow suit.

 

[ComplineSanFran]

Ha!
Good one.
Hawkeye Peirce, prophet and poet.

.

Yes, a very good one. And I’m glad that this thread has been brought to the front of the line. I think many still don’t quite understand what is happening with this commemoration that will be happening soon. I know I’m going to look again at the Liturgy that was created and pay attention to various documents coming out.

And Don Ruggero, thank you again for all your insight and experience in ecumenical efforts.

 

[Wannano]

You are not correct, neither in what you propose nor in the conclusions that you draw.

However, I think you have ably demonstrated that responding to you serves no purpose for me and is valueless to you. It would, frankly, be a waste of my time and effort.

I will simply say in response: what you have written in this thread is not the thought of the Holy See or of the theological community…and that is what matters. It is the Magisterium that both safeguards the deposit of the faith and that interprets the teaching of the past in the light of the present day.

As a layman and a convert to Catholicism, you may read Ut Unum Sint and choose to see it in the light of anything you wish – but that does not mean that is how theologians, ecumenists and those who are actually engaged in these issues view the matter. For what it is worth to you, I can assure you that they don’t.

To close out this discussion: the writings you cite are not the framework for those about the present endeavors in Church unity, certainly not on the part of Rome nor on the part of the conferences of bishops throughout the world…which determine, in turn, the initiatives and work of the ecumenical office in your own diocese.

The thoughts expressed in Ut Unum Sint provide a beautiful and authoritative orientation that is distinctly different from those that preceded Vatican II. Previous dispositions have been overtaken by the mandates of the Council Fathers and the initiatives of the subsequent popes.

You may lament, as you did earlier in the thread, the truly wonderful outcome of the joint commemorations between Catholics and Lutherans next year, which will providentially follow in the wake of the Year of Mercy. That does not affect the fact that all this that is happening is the will of the Pope, that it is the will of the Holy See, that it is the course and the action that the Catholic Church is taking…in her relations with the Lutherans, with the Orthodox, with the Anglicans, and with others.

I have been quietly following this discourse and now brought back to it. I appreciate your clarity and demeanor, you remind me of my friend, a priest, who I have come to love and respect as a brother even though I am not Lutheran, Orthodox or Anglican. Could you shed some light on what action the Catholic Church is taking in her relations with “others?” I realize “others” could be a big can of worms so so I will state “my others” is a church that has a valid baptism, believes all the core doctrines of Jesus’ birth, nature, death and Resurrection and expects works to follow conversion and yet is not Sacremental nor eucharistic.

 

[Jomann]

I’m thinking to convert to Catholicism.

I was baptized as a Lutheran (tradition of my Pomeranian family) but now I’m on the theistic agnosticism spectrum. In 2007 I embraced the hardcore atheism, but found it to be pointless.

 

[MaryT777]

I’m thinking to convert to Catholicism.

I was baptized as a Lutheran (tradition of my Pomeranian family) but now I’m on the theist agnosticism spectrum. In 2007 I embraced the hardcore atheism, but found it to be pointless.

I pray for your discernment regarding this decision to convert Catholicism and of course a reminder that you can join RCIA to learn more with no “obligation” to convert.

Blessings,

Mary.

 

[JonNC]

I pray for your discernment regarding this decision to convert Catholicism and of course a reminder that you can join RCIA to learn more with no “obligation” to convert.

Blessings,

Mary.

I second this advice.

Jon

 

[Starwarsfan2]

I pray for your discernment regarding this decision to convert Catholicism and of course a reminder that you can join RCIA to learn more with no “obligation” to convert.

Blessings,

Mary.

I would also suggest talking to a OCA priest as well as RCIA

 

[Hockeygurl]

Hello again!

Why was Luther questioning grace? Was Church teaching not enough?

I believe it came from an episode early in his career as a priest where a young boy had committed suicide and therefore was unable to have a funeral or be buried in the cemetery. Luther questioned whether god’s grace could cover this child who was so obviously in a dark place.

I believe the Catholic Church eventually came around to this teaching also… as there is a funeral for those who take their own lives. As i have heard “understanding of discipline evolves”. I will never get this, because if the church once said something isn’t it always true?

Anyway, with our deeper understanding in modern times of mental illness, I believe we have opened our hearts to the massive possibilities of the grace of god, something Luther understood long before us.