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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
It would be like Catholics and Orthodox worshipping together on the day the schism occurred, it doesn’t sound right. I’m sure the Lutherans don’t mind but why should Catholics do this?
Catholics and Lutherans to worship together at Reformation anniversary
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
If that did happen, I would ask Pope Benedict for his blessing and assure him of my prayers for him, his successor Pope Francis and for the whole Church. I would then pray to God for all of those who were considering entering the Catholic Church, but chose to remain in the religion started by Fr. Martin Luther upon hearing the Pope’s words affirming their founder. I would then pray for my own family, that they may one day receive Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist as well as the sacraments of reconciliation and confirmation, which I believe they would have if they were not caught up in the mess started by Fr. Luther. I would finally pray for Fr. Martin Luther, who is still a Catholic Priest wherever he may be, that despite the centuries of division among the baptized that he brought to the world, that he too may enjoy paradise. I would then pray for my own salvation, and yours as well my friend.
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steido01
Guest
Well, I can’t fault you for a compassionate answer. Thank you. But I think you do have a misunderstanding of what Confessional Lutheranism truly is, why it actually began, and what may come from its current relationship with Rome. Stick around.
It depends on the purpose of the worship. If it has the effect of increasing the healing of the wounds of our mutual division ( something done seem to oppose, on both sides), then it is a good thing. Celebration, in this case, doesn’t seem to fit. Better, commemoration, and penitence. The mutual seeking of forgiveness from each other, and from God.
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Genesis315
Guest
Looking over the texts of this service (here) I see one main problem.
It contains ambiguous prayers and readings that allow a Catholic and Lutheran to be saying the same sentence, but–if both remain faithful to their beliefs–will have diametrically opposed meanings that would be unconscionable to the other side. For example, take this prayer:
A Catholic could confess scandalous behavior which leads others to schism or heresy, but I guarantee you the Lutherans aren’t confessing their way of thinking that denies various Catholic doctrines or refusal to be subject to the Catholic hierarchy which are what ultimately perpetuates the divisions (if they assented to Catholic doctrine and were subject to Catholic bishops, there would be no division).
Or take this prayer:
Common Prayer:
Prayers like these are just dishonest and misleading.
It contains ambiguous prayers and readings that allow a Catholic and Lutheran to be saying the same sentence, but–if both remain faithful to their beliefs–will have diametrically opposed meanings that would be unconscionable to the other side. For example, take this prayer:
Common Prayer said:
A Catholic could confess scandalous behavior which leads others to schism or heresy, but I guarantee you the Lutherans aren’t confessing their way of thinking that denies various Catholic doctrines or refusal to be subject to the Catholic hierarchy which are what ultimately perpetuates the divisions (if they assented to Catholic doctrine and were subject to Catholic bishops, there would be no division).
Or take this prayer:
Common Prayer:
Many of the “theological and spiritual insights” received by Lutherans are heresy to Catholics–Catholics can’t be thankful for those. Likewise, the insights Catholics received were more precise explanations of a whole variety of dogmas as formulated by the Council of Trent, many of which Lutherans could not be thankful for if Lutheranism were true.
Prayers like these are just dishonest and misleading.
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7_Sorrows
Guest
I agree.
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Peter_J
Guest
LordHaveMercy has spoken!
All rise.
Heh, just kidding, everyone stay seated. But seriously, I felt I should say something just because a scarily (or is that scary-ly?) large number of people think that CAF represents the Roman Catholic Church.
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Genesis315
Guest
Heresy and schism are mortal sins–therefore it is possible people went to hell for participating in the Reformation. But as LordHaveMercy said, we won’t know how many until Judgment Day when all is made manifest.
What’s false about that?
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
Not sure what you mean here, should I be laughing with you? I am laughing with you. Gonna just keep laughing until people think I know why I’m laughing.
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Starwarsfan2
Guest
Sorry about my poorly worded comment
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Son_of_Niall
Guest
That’s God’s business.
Our objective is to make sure WE do not wind up there.
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Michael68
Guest
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Peter_J
Guest
Okay, I won’t lie to you: I like that.
Mind if I use it sometime?
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Peter_J
Guest
It’s striking to me that you take issue even with the first prayer you quoted, to wit:
Originally Posted by Common Prayer
“We confess our own ways of thinking and acting that perpetuate the divisions
of the past. As communities and as individuals, we build many walls around
us: mental, spiritual, physical, political walls that result in discrimination
and violence. Forgive us, Lord.”
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Peter_J
Guest
Originally Posted by Common Prayer
“We confess our own ways of thinking and acting that perpetuate the divisions
of the past. As communities and as individuals, we build many walls around
us: mental, spiritual, physical, political walls that result in discrimination
and violence. Forgive us, Lord.”
The Lord told me to take the plank out of my *own *eye … Sounds to me like whoever composed the above prayer received the same message. Maybe I’m just not understanding the objections that some have to that prayer, but for those who are Catholic I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church #817, specifically the assertion that I have bolded below:
In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
(That quotes from Vatican II, so I’m probably not making any friends among the hard-core “traditionalist” Catholics, but c’est la vie, right?
)
“We confess our own ways of thinking and acting that perpetuate the divisions
of the past. As communities and as individuals, we build many walls around
us: mental, spiritual, physical, political walls that result in discrimination
and violence. Forgive us, Lord.”
The Lord told me to take the plank out of my *own *eye … Sounds to me like whoever composed the above prayer received the same message. Maybe I’m just not understanding the objections that some have to that prayer, but for those who are Catholic I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church #817, specifically the assertion that I have bolded below:
In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
(That quotes from Vatican II, so I’m probably not making any friends among the hard-core “traditionalist” Catholics, but c’est la vie, right?
)
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
No offense taken. May the Force Be With You.
Yes sir! That’s what I’m saying brother! Though we don’t want our neighbors to wind up there either, which I’m sure you saw was the point of my statement.
I don’t mind at all. You don’t even have to cite me.Okay, I won’t lie to you: I like that.
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LordHaveMercy
Guest
Wouldn’t you see a conflict between the language of this liturgy and the words you read from Vatican II?Originally Posted by Common Prayer
“We confess our own ways of thinking and acting that perpetuate the divisions
of the past. As communities and as individuals, we build many walls around
us: mental, spiritual, physical, political walls that result in discrimination
and violence. Forgive us, Lord.”
The Lord told me to take the plank out of my own eye … Sounds to me like whoever composed the above prayer received the same message. Maybe I’m just not understanding the objections that some have to that prayer, but for those who are Catholic I would recommend the Catechism of the Catholic Church #817, specifically the assertion that I have bolded below:
In fact, “in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame.” The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism - do not occur without human sin:
Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.
(That quotes from Vatican II, so I’m probably not making any friends among the hard-core “traditionalist” Catholics, but c’est la vie, right?
So, disunity was damnable in the days of the apostles and is much more serious now, and both sides are to blame for the sin of heresy, apostasy and schism according to Vatican II.
This liturgy says:
So, I would ask you, which are we supposed to believe? Are both sides guilty of the sin of heresy, apostasy and schism as Vatican II says, or was one side, the reformers, simply seeking to be witnesses to Christ? Is the reformation and its disunity a sin and a damnable one, as Vatican II says, or a celebration of Jesus Christ as this liturgy says?
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Reuben_J
Guest
Good points there.
Remind me of our prayer of the faithful. The one who composes it has to be careful that it is theology sound remembering that all would be agreeably answering “Lord, hear us”. How could the Lord hear us if it is something that He does not want and approve of?
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Peter_J
Guest
Thank you for posting it. (I’m a little late responding to the OP b/c I first responded to some of the more provocative comments posted on forum … but maybe this is a good time to get back to it. )
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Lormar
Guest
I’m going to insert my question here in this thread, and I hope no one minds.
A Catholic woman in her sixties told me that in danger of death I could call a Lutheran minister for confession and it would be as effective as any Catholic priest. I was shocked to hear this. How could that be since the Church does not recognize Lutheran ministers as anything other than laymen?
A Catholic woman in her sixties told me that in danger of death I could call a Lutheran minister for confession and it would be as effective as any Catholic priest. I was shocked to hear this. How could that be since the Church does not recognize Lutheran ministers as anything other than laymen?
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