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theMutant
Guest
Please examine the links I gave in my previous response. In them I try, using the historical documents (those which people claim changed the teaching), to demonstrate that the teaching has not changed.
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Ashton:
Keep in mind that there’s a big difference between dogmatic development (Catholic) and dogmatic change (Modernist).
Doctrine develops in the sense that what is once believed implicitly is made explicit, and aspects of certain teachings are made more nuanced and specific.
This isn’t a new teaching, either, but one firmly rooted in the Patirstic and scholastic tradition of the Church.
Regarding the Church’s historical understanding of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, see the late Father John Hardon’s “On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” and Father Peter M. J. Stravinskas’s article “Can Outsiders Be Insiders?”
Keep in mind that there’s a big difference between dogmatic development (Catholic) and dogmatic change (Modernist).
Doctrine develops in the sense that what is once believed implicitly is made explicit, and aspects of certain teachings are made more nuanced and specific.
This isn’t a new teaching, either, but one firmly rooted in the Patirstic and scholastic tradition of the Church.
Regarding the Church’s historical understanding of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, see the late Father John Hardon’s “On Salvation Outside the Catholic Church” and Father Peter M. J. Stravinskas’s article “Can Outsiders Be Insiders?”
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Victoria
Guest
Pardon me if I am wrong, but in today’s Post #19, The Questioner mentioned Rastafarians as worshipping the same God as Christians, Muslims, etc. I thought that Rastafarians believe that Hailie Sellasie of Ethopia was the personification of God and that they worship him directly. I was in Jamaica earlier this year and was told as much by a Jamaican preacher. I may have misunderstood him tho…I believe that the Jamiacan Rastafarians are also those who strongly embraced Bob Marley and his musical Reggae movement in the 1960’s and '70’s.
Victoria
Victoria
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Victoria
Guest
Excuse me if I am wrong, but regarding post #19 above, I thought that Rastafarians believe that Haillie Sellasie (of Ethopia) was the reincarnation of God and that as such, they worship him directly. I was in Jamaica earlier this year and told that by a Jamaican preacher. He also told me that Rastafarians have directly linked themselves to Bob Marley and his Reggae musical movement of the 1960’s and 1970’s and that is what “saved” their religion when it was in jeopardy of failing after Sellasie died.
Victoria
Victoria
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DominvsVobiscvm
Guest
Bob Marley was given a funeral by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. I know this because, during Black History Month at my college, I saw a display board about Marley that included a photocopy of his funeral announcement.invitation.
I wonder if some Africans practice both Christianity and Rastafarianism simultaneously, much like many Cubans do with santeria or Hatians with voodoo?
I wonder if some Africans practice both Christianity and Rastafarianism simultaneously, much like many Cubans do with santeria or Hatians with voodoo?
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theMutant
Guest
This is a most excellent demonstration of my point in post #13.
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Salvo
Guest
Victoria and Dominus,
Yes, Rastafarians have traditionally and erroneously beleived that Haile Sellasie was the incarnation of God. For the longest time they were scoffed at by the Ethiopian Orthodox (and Ethioipians in general). In the 50’s and 60’s, Haile Selassie himself went to Jamaica to convince the Rastas NOT to come to Ethiopia. But after Haile Sellasie’s death, the movement pretty much lost it’s religious tone and played up the social tone. Haile Selassie is now seen more of as a saint or symbolic inspiration to most Rastas.
On my last visit to Ethiopia, there were 2 Ethiopian Rastas on the flight. But the Rasta culture outside of Jamaica is more of a social movement, fashion statement and/or way of life than a religion these days.
Yes, Rastafarians have traditionally and erroneously beleived that Haile Sellasie was the incarnation of God. For the longest time they were scoffed at by the Ethiopian Orthodox (and Ethioipians in general). In the 50’s and 60’s, Haile Selassie himself went to Jamaica to convince the Rastas NOT to come to Ethiopia. But after Haile Sellasie’s death, the movement pretty much lost it’s religious tone and played up the social tone. Haile Selassie is now seen more of as a saint or symbolic inspiration to most Rastas.
On my last visit to Ethiopia, there were 2 Ethiopian Rastas on the flight. But the Rasta culture outside of Jamaica is more of a social movement, fashion statement and/or way of life than a religion these days.
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Victoria
Guest
Salvo, you may be right. I do know that the “religion” is still very active in Jamaica. Additionally, there are Rastafarians here in the US.
Originally they used the Christian Bible but in the 1930’s one was written for the Black population because the religion’s followers did not wish to be under the control of the missionary forces from Rome (Catholicism and the Vatican, I imagine). It is called The Holy Piby and is used pretty much unilaterally as THE holy book of that faith. I think that here is where the religion’s similarity to Christianity stopped. Their God was, originally, the God of Isaiah and Moses, as the religion was developed from Judaism.
I also know that Marley was an espoused Rastafarian, maybe that is why he was buried through the Ethiopian Church. When I was in Jamaica, most of the young people I saw in Kingston wore the plaited dredlocks (an identifying sign of the religion) and many other members used marijuana openly, another belief they have.
Rastafarianism may have been reduced to a social fad in other parts of the world but in Jamaica it is very much alive and well.
Originally they used the Christian Bible but in the 1930’s one was written for the Black population because the religion’s followers did not wish to be under the control of the missionary forces from Rome (Catholicism and the Vatican, I imagine). It is called The Holy Piby and is used pretty much unilaterally as THE holy book of that faith. I think that here is where the religion’s similarity to Christianity stopped. Their God was, originally, the God of Isaiah and Moses, as the religion was developed from Judaism.
I also know that Marley was an espoused Rastafarian, maybe that is why he was buried through the Ethiopian Church. When I was in Jamaica, most of the young people I saw in Kingston wore the plaited dredlocks (an identifying sign of the religion) and many other members used marijuana openly, another belief they have.
Rastafarianism may have been reduced to a social fad in other parts of the world but in Jamaica it is very much alive and well.
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carol_marie
Guest
I would agree that there is only one TRUE God: The Father, Son & Holy Spirit but there are lots of false “gods” - look at the Hindu religion… they have all kinds of gods. Muslims may worship God the Father but it doesn’t do them a bit of good since Jesus himself said “No one comes to the Father but through me.”
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Ashton
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I think I realize the difference between doctrinal development and doctrinal change. I suppose the point I was trying to make (right or wrong) was that I don’t see how the contemporary dogma is implicit in the ancient sources of the faith; the majority of the earlier Christians seem positively opposed to the idea. For example, from what I have read, probably all but certainly the bast majority of Christians in the middle ages believed that Muslims who failed to join the church were damned. It is something I intend to do more study on, though.
Thanks,
ashton.wilkins@gmail.com
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Salvo
Guest
Ashton,
In the middle-ages, people taught you would go to hell for eating meat on Friday. I don’t think that’s such a good determiner. The Catholic church heirarchy for the longest time taught that the Oriental Orthodox church was monophysite (believing that Jesus had only one divine nature) which was incorrect. They have only corrected this errant view of the Orientals this last century. So, the understanding of other religions is something which consistently evolves. In this day and age, people have the luxury of being able to actually dialogue (though phones, email, or simply in person) which just did not happen hundreds, or even just 50 years ago.
Ah, I don’t doubt it. To be honest with you, I have known a lot of Jamaicans, specifically when I lived in London. And they all had their “rasta” stories. One common thread was that by its very nature, it is a very laid-back way of thinking. They may get heated over certain subjects, but after a joint or two they calm right down. And the other Jamaicans I have known usually tend to dismiss them as “good-for-nothings”. They are under the impression that they may have some beliefs, but generally make things up or justify their actions as they go along. So, there are no Rasta “fundamentalists”.
As an aside, I am involved in a group which sought to bring an obilisk/stellae stolen from Axum, Ethiopia by Mussolini’s fascist army during WW II back to its land of origin from Rome, where it currently stands. We had a very peaceful demonstration outside of the Italian embassy in London and tried to organise as many people as possible. The surprising thing was, the crowd finally consisted of 4 Italians, maybe 13 Ethiopians, 2 English and 27 RASTAS!!! Now, I have to definitely thank them for turning up like that. But I don’t know if it was because they were passionate about the issue, or because they don’t work so they had nothing better to do.
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flick427
Guest
Muslims do not acknowledge Jesus the Christ as the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity. Therefore, they may recognize the God of Abraham, but do not in reality worship the same God as Catholics do.
simple logic really…
simple logic really…
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Salvo
Guest
Ah, but if there is only one God, and Muslims worship even one face of Him, then logic also dictates that they worship the same God, even though it is not in the fullness of understanding that Christians do…
Logic on this particular question works both ways. I dunno. I’ll let the church work on this one.
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flick427
Guest
So I guess this is one of those questions with two answers?
Well, perhaps the church can figure this out better as you say
…Perhaps we could just say that they worship God without having the full truth about Him?
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Salvo
Guest
Flick, I think without a doubt that the second part of what you say is absolutely true. They definitely don’t have the truth about God. Their version of God is man-made, possibly inspired by Satan. So, I guess the question is do Jews worship the same God? How about Mormons? Jehova’s Witnesses? If someone comes along and founds a religion based entirely on the New Testament, but adding another book to it in which they claim God has revealed that His real name is Bob, and that he is a giant turtle who Jesus must wind up every day or else he will fade into oblivion, would that cult be worshiping the same God?So I guess this is one of those questions with two answers?
Well, perhaps the church can figure this out better as you say
Perhaps we could just say that they worship God without having the full truth about Him?
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