Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?

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The fact that so much semantic gymnastics is required here, and in many, many other places, often to an extraordinary degree, to avoid internal contradictions (truth can not contradict itself), is one of the main reasons I’m on sabbatical and have something quite ambiguous listed as my religion in the upper-right-hand corner.

In Islam, a religion filled with many unclean spirits, how is it of God? How do worshippers of God, no matter how imperfectly, how does such a system of worship be held in thrall to the Devil, while at the same time imperfectly worshipping God? It makes the head spin. I think it comes from Rahner’s and Balthasar’s universalism (esp. as pertains to the works-based “Anonymous Christian” of Rahner’s Theological Investigations) having been read back in to the entire churchly dogmatic structure as a presupposition instead of as a conclusion, but, what do I know? Very little, in truth.
 
In Islam, a religion filled with many unclean spirits, how is it of God? How do worshippers of God, no matter how imperfectly, how does such a system of worship be held in thrall to the Devil, while at the same time imperfectly worshipping God? It makes the head spin. I think it comes from Rahner’s and Balthasar’s universalism (esp. as pertains to the works-based “Anonymous Christian” of Rahner’s Theological Investigations) having been read back in to the entire churchly dogmatic structure as a presupposition instead of as a conclusion, but, what do I know? Very little, in truth.
I think the Church’s stance on this probably will evolve with time. We are in a time now that any issue with Islam will have to be handled specially, probably in greater consideration to the Christians at large. What is more important is probably the unsaid. The Church does not say that Islam is correct.
 
The fact that so much semantic gymnastics is required here, and in many, many other places, often to an extraordinary degree, to avoid internal contradictions (truth can not contradict itself), is one of the main reasons I’m on sabbatical and have something quite ambiguous listed as my religion in the upper-right-hand corner.

In Islam, a religion filled with many unclean spirits, how is it of God? How do worshippers of God, no matter how imperfectly, how does such a system of worship be held in thrall to the Devil, while at the same time imperfectly worshipping God? It makes the head spin. I think it comes from Rahner’s and Balthasar’s universalism (esp. as pertains to the works-based “Anonymous Christian” of Rahner’s Theological Investigations) having been read back in to the entire churchly dogmatic structure as a presupposition instead of as a conclusion, but, what do I know? Very little, in truth.
These particular passages of the catechism came about at a time when the religious leaders of Europe and the West had to contemplate the genocide of 6 million Jews, and to recognize the role that Christianity itself had to play in evolution of antisemitism that culminated in that event.

That event weighs heavily in the subsequent wording of the catechism when it comes to how Catholics need to walk that razor thin tight rope of stating the truth about other religions without at the same time demonizing the adherents of those religions.

How can a religion apologize to the adherents of another religion, when the adherents of that other religion have given more punishment than they have taken, and are not particularly sorry in that regard?

That is the position that Catholics are in with Muslims now… It is the dilemma we face where we can acknowledge the good that Christianity has brought to the world, yet are fully aware to of the great havoc that the crusading armies, and the Church-state allegiances have wrought upon indigenous people globally.
We are in a position now where the more that our leaders express their sorrow and humility for all past wrongs, the more that Egyptian Muslims will take those apologies as admissions of guilt, and kick the local Copt as a punishment.

In the hierarchy of values in the Judeo-Christian tradition, no value supercedes the absolute value that we place in life itself. We can apologize for the excesses of the Crusades. There can be no apologies made however for the fact that the Crusades were necessary in the first place in order to protect Christian life.
We can acknowledge the good of God being introduced to a polytheistic people. we must at the same time recognize the vast unbridgeable chasm that divides us from Islam especially when it comes to the nature of who God is.
Jesus as Second Person of the Trinity is no small trifling matter when it comes to the nature of who God is.
What is being said in the catechism is “Enough” when it comes to our portrayals of other religions. What remains unsaid is the differences between Christianity and Islam are extreme, exponentially moreso than with the Orthodox and Catholic, Catholic and Protestant, or Mormonism, or JW, or all of Christianity with all of Judaism.
 
In Islam, a religion filled with many unclean spirits, how is it of God? How do worshippers of God, no matter how imperfectly, how does such a system of worship be held in thrall to the Devil, while at the same time imperfectly worshipping God?.
Let me give an example. Christianity. We too are filled with many unclean spirits. Just look at the last three decades of the Church and its attack from demons of lust. As we go out from Catholicism, we see Christianity being filled with unclean spirits in self-destructive cults, polygamous branches, even parts of Christianity which are blatantly anticatholic. It makes sense that if you go even further away from God’s grace, you will find even more unclean spirits.

It is no different en masse as it is in person. Yet, eluding to our Second Reading this week, even when we are unfaithful, He remains who he is: God.
 
The fact that so much semantic gymnastics is required here, and in many, many other places, often to an extraordinary degree, to avoid internal contradictions (truth can not contradict itself), is one of the main reasons I’m on sabbatical and have something quite ambiguous listed as my religion in the upper-right-hand corner.

In Islam, a religion filled with many unclean spirits, how is it of God? How do worshippers of God, no matter how imperfectly, how does such a system of worship be held in thrall to the Devil, while at the same time imperfectly worshipping God? It makes the head spin. I think it comes from Rahner’s and Balthasar’s universalism (esp. as pertains to the works-based “Anonymous Christian” of Rahner’s Theological Investigations) having been read back in to the entire churchly dogmatic structure as a presupposition instead of as a conclusion, but, what do I know? Very little, in truth.
Jesus answers:
Matthew 22:31-32 “And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.” RSV

Peter speaks:
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate when he had decided to release him.

Psalm 146:5 Happy is he whose help is in the God of Jacob whose hope is in the LORD his God.
 
Some interesting replies.

My own view is that as Catholics we have to be tolerant of what non-Catholics choose to believe in.
This doesn’t mean that as Catholics we accept the veracity of other beliefs. We don’t.

We know what we believe in and we extend an open invitation to all non-Catholics to come and join our faith.
 
Regarding the topic of this thread, according to the Catholic philosophical and theological tradition, it is right to say that Muslims worship the one God. First, I think there should be noted the difference between worshipping God in Spirit and in truth, offering Him “true worship” being in the grace of the Father or "having Him,’ etc., and worshipping God according to the virtue of religion (which is not a theological virtue, but falls under justice).

St. Thomas defines this virtue in the Summa as “to show reverence to one God under one aspect, namely, as the first principle of the creation and government of things.” newadvent.org/summa/3081.htm

Can Muslims do this? They certainly worship “God” as First Principle and Supreme Governor of all things, but is it the same God we know? Can one acknowledge the one God without acknowledging the Trinity?

First, it needs to be pointed out that faith is required to acknowledge the Trinity. The Trinity cannot be reasoned out, as St. Vincent Ferrer explains:
St. Vincent Ferrer:
Concerning the use of the intelligence with regard to the Trinity, St. Thomas asks whether the Trinity of the Divine Persons can be known by natural reasoning. He answers: “It is impossible to attain to the knowledge of the Trinity by natural reason.” For man can obtain the knowledge of God by natural reason only from creatures. Now creatures lead us to God as effects do to their cause. Accordingly, by natural reason we can know of God that only which of necessity belongs to him as the principle of all things. Now, the creative power of God is common to the whole Trinity; and hence it belongs to the unity of the essence, and not to the distinction of the Persons. Therefore by natural reason we can know what belongs to the unity of the essence, but not what belongs to the distinction of the Persons. Whoever, then, tries to prove the Trinity of Persons by natural reason, derogates from faith.
Therefore, we can know of God, as the Principle of all things, from reason alone, apart from faith, but we can only know of the Trinity with faith since it is a revealed dogma. The First Vatican Council also defined that God can be known from natural reason alone (Dei Filius, Canon 2.1) and St. Paul says, on account of this, those who do not acknowledge God (but worship idols, are atheists, etc.) are without excuse (Rom. 1:20).

Therefore, one can acknowledge the one God and Creator of all things without having faith and acknowledging the Trinity. But do Muslims do this?

How can we say whether or not we are talking about the same thing? It is the essence of the thing that determines what it is. If we acknowledge the same essence, we acknowledge the same thing. What we can say about the essence of God is that it is the same as His existence. This is summed up as “God is” or, in His own words, “I AM” or “I AM who AM.” (Exo. 3:14)

This concept is formally referred to as the “aesity” of God. Essentially, aesity means self-existence. Aesity explains the metaphysical nature of God as a purely self-existent being that exists in complete actuality. God is not a being that is created by another god; neither does God create Himself into existence. Rather, God has always existed as an unchanging, completely actualized being. God has his Being of himself and to himself such that he is absolute being and the very definition of existence (Acts 17:22-28). Since God’s existence is the same as his essence, it follows that God is existence. (Note: this not to assert pantheism. All other beings participate in his existence on a contingency and thus do not possess the essence of God. Therefore, no other being can be said to be a god or share a part in godhead since they exist solely on a contingency.) This concept is at the root of the definition of all of God’s other perfections because if God is absolute being he must logically contain in Himself all perfections of being.

Since God’s essence is existence, if one acknowledges His essence, one can only acknowledge He who exists–it is impossible to acknowledge a completely actualized being that is not the true God. Similarly, there cannot exist two of such beings, because then neither would contain in Himself all perfections of being.

The Catholic Encyclopedia article on Essence and Existence gives the Thomist position on this:
Catholic Encyclopedia:
-If essence and existence were but one thing, we should be unable to conceive the one without conceiving the other. But we are as a fact able to conceive of essence by itself.
-If there be no real distinction between the two, then the essence is identical with the existence. But in God alone are these identical.
Since Muslims do conceive of God as being completely self-actualized, of being non-contingent, as having aesity (al-islam.org/GodAttributes/need.htm ), then they therefore can only be said to acknowledge the one God who exists and it is to Him that they honor and worship as First Principle and Creator according to the virtue of religion.

I would say therefore that we know God; they know of God. This is the difference between affective and speculative knowledge. St. Thomas makes this distinction in his commentary on John to reconcile Biblical passages where Jesus says one must know Him to know the Father with those where people without faith are said to know or worship God (such as those passages cited above). We worship God in Spirit and in Truth and serve Him in supernatural faith, they worship only in a natural way–but they do adore Him, despite their other errors.
 
Awesome post Genesis315: would you say any monotheistic culture throughout history is worshiping the same God Christians do?
 
Awesome post Genesis315: would you say any monotheistic culture throughout history is worshiping the same God Christians do?
I would say “No.” Bábism‎, the Bahá’í Faith‎, Yazidism, and such
(though similar in ways) are not in *harmony *with the Three Prime
Abrahamic Religions: Judaism, Christianity, & Islam.

Lingayatism sure isn’t worshiping the same God.
 
It makes no sense that groups with radically different theology on Who God is can be worshipping the same God.
 
It makes no sense that groups with radically different theology on Who God is can be worshipping the same God.
I can say one thing about the President, then you can say something completely opposite.
We are talking about the same man who is President of the United States of America, but
one of us is wrong. Such is the case between Christianity and Islam, THAT is the problem.
 
Awesome post Genesis315: would you say any monotheistic culture throughout history is worshiping the same God Christians do?
It depends on the one god. It’s possible for a culture to believe there only exists one god, but who attribute certain contingent aspects to it–I think some of the Ba’al worshippers were like this as were certain sun-god worshippers, but I could be mistaken.

Likewise, it is possible for polytheists to worship the one God while also worshipping other gods alongside Him (St. Thomas deals with this someplace, either his commentary on John or on Romans). For example, the Athenians St. Paul was addressing in Acts were doing this–among their idols was an altar St. Paul says is dedicated to the God He preaches.
 
You are making two common mistakes here. 1. You can’t say “Muslims _________”. As with Christianity there are many different schools of theology in Islam, many with very serious divides. Some schools take the Quran more literally than others, and some have more of a focus on teachings and traditions that have been passed down. (Sound familiar?). The second mistake is that you are reading an English translation. So much is lost in translation that unless you have a Muslim helping you understand each passage in question, you really can’t presume to know the theological meaning.
There are no major divides in (Sunni) Islam as there are in Christianity. The four schools or jurisprudence (maddhahib) are not “denominations”, or “Churches”; all interpret the Koran very literally, with the main difference being in which laws apply when, and when dispensations can be granted. All believe in the same six articles of faith, and all apply them essentially the same way. All believe in the same five/six pillars, and all practice them in the same way with the exception of shellfish, witr, and whether it’s allowable to eat pork if one would starve otherwise. A Muslim can switch from Hanbalism to Shafi’ism, and this is not a conversion of any sort; the West has no category for what this is. It is somewhat similar to a Western Christian switching parishes.

The Ash’ari school of theology is completely dominant, through its descendant the Athari school of the Hanbalis, whose main dogma is bila-kayf: “Without asking how or why”, that is, a completely literalistic reading with no attempt to reconcile difficulties. All four schools of jurisprudence follow the aqida of Asha’riyya. There is a school called the Maturidi, which is dominant from within the other three madhahib, and has one difference from the Ash’ari school: it believes that faith remains the same at all times, but piety increases and decreases. (The Ash’ari and Athari believe that both faith and piety increase and decrease.) Obviously, this doesn’t actually affect any doctrine. Maturidism and Atharism are both subsets of Ash’arism. Like having Calvinism, Hyper-Calvinism, and Arminianism in the West. All are subsets of Calvinism or Reformed theology.

Previous schools of jurisprudence, such as the Jafari, Dhahiri, and Mutazili, are considered heretical by all Sunnis. (Dhahiri is accepted by Shi’i, who are less than 15% of all Muslims. Muslims in the West, and Islam as Westerners know it, is almost solely Sunni.) I’ll get Qadianism (Ahmadiyya), Koranism, and Sufism out of the way by stating that all Muslims view Ahmadis as apostates, and the majority view Sufism as an heretical corruption of Islam combined with paganism. Sufism is less than 3-5% of the world Muslim population. Ahmadism is less than 0.5%. Koran-onlyism is a tiny, tiny minority, immeasurable, but which has a presence in America disporportionate due to the headquarters of the Submitters International (the main Koranist sect) being in Arizona, where the Koranist founder, Rashad Khalifa, was assassinated for refusing to believe in the inspiration of the ahadith almost 30 years ago.

All Sunnis and Salafis accept the same five books of tradition and interpret them in the same, literal way. There is no school of Islam that doesn’t place an absolute reliance on tradition as recorded in the ahadith and sunnah. The Shi’i have some different ahadith collections that support Shi’i claims over against the Sunnis.

Hyper-literalists, the Salafi or Ahlus Sunnah, are a majority amongst Saudians, as they are a large amount otherwhere in the world due to Saudian money funding masajid and madaris around the world to propagate their teaching. Sometimes Salafism is considered the same as Wahhabism (Taliban, al Qaida, etc. adhere to Wahhabism, named after an 18th century reformer, Abdal Wahhab of Arabia), but more often Wahhabism is considered the most militant/political wing of Salafism.

All of these are equally political, have the same views of relation to non-Muslim religions, etc.; no real analogy can be drawn from the West, but, trying to, it would be as if only the SSPX and traditional Catholics under the Pope had 90% of all people, with 10% of people joining an extremely conservative Orthodox Church, and no other denomination or religion existing, and no consequential dissidential or otherwise minor schools of theology or thought existing except for Neo-Scholastic Thomism and Palamism. But even that’s too much: the difference in theology between the poles of Islamic theology is much more minor than the differences that exist between Thomism and Palamism; the difference between the furthest-separated schools of Islamic theology is more equivalent to the difference between early 20th-c. Neo-Scholastic Thomism and early 20th-c. Existential Thomism in terms of magnitude of disagreement.

A good source for this is Reilly, The Closing of the Muslim Mind. To see politicized Salafism at its finest, read Qutb, Milestones. One can read several tafsirs, such as Yusuf Ali (a Dawudi Bohra Shi’ite), Khan and Hilali (Salafi-Wahhabis), etc., and one will find that they are all very similar. This similarity is not superficial. The Melkite Robert Spencer produces good popular-level but mostly-accurate books about Islam as well, but none that deal with the theology proper.

CONTINUED
 
Secondly, the Muslim canard that “only the Arabic is the Koran” is demonstrably false, and has been demonstrated to be so by Luxenberg, The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran, Ibn Warraq, What the Koran Really Says (a tour-de-force of textual criticism applied to the Koran), and Ibn Warraq, Virgins, What Virgins? And Other Essays. Firstly, a good 10% of the Koran is completely nonsensical even in Arabic, so it’s actually easier to understand in English translations which make the nonsensical sensical. Many words have literally hundreds of possible meanings assigned to them, which have been debated since 3 years Anno Hegirae. I recommend also Mangalwadi, The Book That Made Your World, even though it focuses on the Bible and Hinduism and is only tangentially related, there is a section on Koran translation and Bible translation and the various attitudes to both throughout history.

AJ Arberry, The Koran Interpreted, translates the Arabic text as it stands, leading to a confusing and at times nonsensical read. But it is a completely valid representation of the Koran. If you were to read five English Korans, you’d have five books that agreed on most every translation, except for the words that no one knows (such as “samad” in Surah al Ikhlas, which is translated differently in every Koran). The difference would be in the commentary (tafsir) and in supplied words (to smooth over contradictions and inconsistencies and to make sense out of nonsense). If every English Koran was radically different, you may have a point: but all that is missing in an English Koran is the poetic sound and rhymes of parts of the original, not the meaning. An English Koran represents the meaning of the Koran just as well as an English Bible represents the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew. Translation is translation, and irrational linguistic dogmatism doesn’t make a translation false - it just makes people who believe in the dogmatism angry. That is, The Koran in English says the same thing as the Koran in Arabic, only in a different language, in those parts where the meaning of the Arabic text can be comprehended, for it is a truism that what can not be comprehended in one language can not be translated in to another. One must understand the source in order to translate.

You say a Muslim must interpret it: how about a non-Muslim who is competent in classical Arabic? Nay, I say unto you, neither is needed; for we have had both Muslims and non-Muslims competent in Koranic Arabic make faithful translations in to English.

A Muslim might gloss over the barbaric parts, like Muhammad Asad’s translation does, or smooth out grammatical and logical contradictions, as Yusuf Ali’s does, but the meaning of the words is just as clear to an Anglophone reading any of the three or four Korans I’ve mentioned as it is to a college-educated Arabic-speaker who has taken four years of classical Arabic and reads the Koran straight out of the Sana’a manuscripts. I’ve been born a Muslim, and lived a Muslim, and have learned Koranic Arabic, and I can say with certainty that an Englishman reading Arberry understands the Koran just as well as an educated Arab reading the Arabic, and, indeed, sometimes the Englishman understands it better, as massive erudition is brought to bear on solving some of the more intransigent textual and grammatical problems, erudition that the average college-educated, classical-Arabic-knowing Koran-reader does not have.

The meanings, where they are comprehensible at all, are not esoteric, but easily understood according to the rules of grammar. Islam as a religion is not based off of the “deeper meanings”; for the most part it’s not even based off of the Koran, but off of the ahadith. Of the “five pillars”, not one is found in the Koran. They are found in the ahadith. The Shahada (declaration of faith) is in the Koran, right? No! The Koran commands believers to pray five times a day facing Mecca, yes? No! It commands believers to pray three times a day facing Jerusalem, just like the Jews. There’s a hadith that abrogates this and changes it to five by Mecca instead of three by Jerusalem as the Koran - supposedly “Allah’s uncreated co-eternal word” - does. The theological meaning comes from the commentary of the ahadith upon the Koran, not from the Koran itself. Indeed, Muslims have no concept of “orthodoxy” or “theology”, even, as Westerners do: in the entire system, what is “orthopract” is “orthodox”, and orthopraxy (“correct action”) is determined by the ahadith.

The categories of Western religion just do not map on to Islam at all, any more than the categories of creatio ex nihilo theism map on to Hinduism or Buddhism where all is illusion. There is nothing in Islam comparable to “theology” as the West understands it (e.g. Thomism, Scotism, Augustinianism), nor is there any debate over the place of the book nor of the traditions as the West understands it. Most certainly, Islam is not completely monolithic, but in comparison to Christianity, it most certainly is monolithic.

I end this rant, but will be glad to take it up again at any time, if any of my sources contradict my citation of them, or, if even through the casting of aspersions and none else, anything I have said can be brought in to the least bit of doubt whatsoever.
 
It makes no sense that groups with radically different theology on Who God is can be worshipping the same God.
No, not true:
I can say one thing about the President, then you can say something completely opposite.
We are talking about the same man who is President of the United States of America, but
one of us is wrong. Such is the case between Christianity and Islam, THAT is the problem.
EDIT: Let me qualify that: Groups such as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baha’i,
Yezidi, Mandaean, etc. have views of God so radically different that they can’t have
the same God, but Islam hasn’t crossed that line yet, it’s still within the Abrahamic
Family. Islam isn’t Christianity, no one is bickering about that, but when it comes to
a difference in Deity, nope, still same God, just false view.
 
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