Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

[ERose]

Hi ERose, I thought I did answer your questions? Here I go again.

Q1 - did Mary and Joseph have normal relations?

• the bible is explicit that Mary was a virgin through the birth of Christ.
• the bible is not explicit on what happened after the birth of Christ
• the use of ‘until’ in Mathew 1:24-25 does imply Joseph ‘knew’ Mary after the birth of Christ
  "… and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."

**Q2 - **did Mary and Joseph have bilogical children

• the bible is not explicit on whether Mary and Joseph had additional children or if Jesus was an only Child.
• many bible versus imply Jesus had siblings based on the english translation but it is open to interpretation

Acts 1:14 - “These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.”
1 Cor. 9:4-5 - “Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles, and the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?”
**Gal. 1:19 **- But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lords brother."
**Matthew 12:46-47 **- "While He was still speaking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. And someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”
**Matthew 13:55 **- “Is not this the carpenters son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”
**Mark 6:2-3 **- "And when the Sabbath had come, He began to teach in the synagogue; and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands? “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joseph, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”
John 2:12 - “After this He went down to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples; and there they stayed a few days.”

This argument I have already showed as false in a previous post, but here is the posting again.

It seems to me that the best attack by protestants on the perpetual virginity of Mary is Mat 13:55 & Mark 6:3: Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him. Am I correct? I mean I know that you want to use other verses to support this verse, but this is the only verse that you have that I know of that can in your view point stand on its own.
Well let us look at this verse and compare it to other verses in the Bible. The best way is to find references to James, Joseph, Jude and Simon. So here are the verses that I found that reference these men:
Matt 10:3 James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus,
Matt 27:56 Among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
Mark 15:40 And there were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joseph, and Salome:
Luke 6: 14-16 Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes, And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.
Acts 1: 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James.
The James that is usually referred to as “the brother of the Lord” is the one that is also referred to as James the Less who was the brother of Jude and of Joseph as is referenced in the two main verses: Mat 13:55 & Mark 6:3. But it should be shown that the father of James as per Scripture is Alpheus and his mother is also named Mary but nowhere does it indicate that the Mary the mother of James who is married to Alpheus is the same person as Mary the mother of Jesus. So as I have said before there is no scriptural proof that Mary the mother of Jesus was also the mother of James, Jude and Joseph. Rather James and most probably Jude and Joseph were born of another Mary and their father was Alpheus.

Concerning the quote from Acts 1: *[13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode Peter and John, James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James of Alpheus, and Simon Zelotes, and Jude the brother of James. [14] All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. [15] In those days Peter rising up in the midst of the brethren, said: (now the number of persons together was about an hundred and twenty *

Let us do some math with this quote. There were 120 people in that room. 11 of them where Apostles, Mary, and some women (let us be generous and say that there were 30 women) and then an unknown number of Jesus’ biological brothers. 120-11-1-30=78. So from your understanding of scripture that you are proposing the brothers of Jesus numbered in the 70-80s. I do not know about you but if Mary had that many biological children that would be memorable don’t you think.

 

[ERose]

Involving the use of until as proof is riddled with uncertainity because of what was Matthew trying to say. Mat 1:25: And he knew her not till (or until) she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. So you are saying that from this verse that just as soon as Jesus was born, Joseph consummated the marriage right?

I have seen the arguments about this one word in this thread and I do not want to revisit them here are some examples of this use in the NT:

Mat 24: 21 For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. So the tribulation occurred after he said until now?

Jn 5: 17 But Jesus answered them: My Father worketh until now; and I work. So the God stopped working at that point in time?

Heb 1:13 Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool? So after the enemies of Jesus are defeated, He will be removed from the Father’s right hand?

Act 23: 1 And Paul looking upon the council, said: Men, brethren, I have conversed with all good conscience before God until this present day. So Paul was going to give up his good conscience that day?

Rom 11:8 As it is written: God hath given them the spirit of insensibility; eyes that they should not see; and ears that they should not hear, until this present day. So the unbelievers started listening the very day that Paul wrote this sentence?

1Cor 4:13 *We are blasphemed, and we entreat; we are made as the refuse of this world, the offscouring of all even until now. * So after Paul wrote this Christians became accepted throughout the world and the persecutions stopped?

1Cor 8:7 But there is not knowledge in every one. For some until this present, with conscience of the idol: eat as a thing sacrificed to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. At the moment he wrote this, these people had a change of heart?

So there is ample evidence that the word “until” was used in both ways. So which one is it?

There is no evidence whatsoever in the NT that shows that Mary and Joseph had an active sex life nor is there any evidence showing that Mary had more children outside of Jesus.

You have to do better than that.

 

[Todd520]

ERose,
Why are you 'beating a dead horse?
I admitted the verses are unclear and open to interpretation, so repeating your interpretation doesn’t change anything. I respect your view but still beileve the alternative veiw is also viable.

 

[Dokimas]

I believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary when I was a Catholic and after joining the LDS.

However, after reading the multiple threads here on this subject, I am now not convinced. I think many of the biblical arguments proffered lack substance. I would prefer if the CC claimed public revelation to support it over weak biblical logic and references.

Thanks for your response.

Looks like all this ‘stuff’ has not changed anyone’s mind but maybe your’s (If I understand your post).

 

[ERose]

ERose,
Why are you 'beating a dead horse?
I admitted the verses are unclear and open to interpretation, so repeating your interpretation doesn’t change anything. I respect your view but still beileve the alternative veiw is also viable.

But I am say that the alternative view is not viable nor supportable by scripture, and you or anyone else on your side has not shown this as of yet.

James the brother of our Lord was the son of Alpheaus and Mary of Cleopas. Yet you guys want to disregard the reading of scripture and have no leg to stand on.

The reason why I keep kicking this horse is because you have continued to fail in answering the questions. You claim to be Bible believers yet you refuse to accept what the Bible is telling you. You have no argument. None.

 

[Todd520]

ERose, every example you provided was erroneous.
You only provided examples where the author is speaking up to present moment (until now), or to a future moment.
You are correct this usage does not indicate a change of state, only the possibility of one for the future.

Mat 24: 21 * . . . from the beginning of the world until now*, neither shall be.
Jn 5: 17 * . . . My Father worketh until now*; and I work.
Heb 1:13 * Sit on my right hand, until I make thy enemies thy footstool*?
Act 23: 1 * . . . I have conversed with all good conscience before God until this present day*.
Rom 11:8 * . . . that they should not hear, until this present day*.
1Cor 4:13 We are . . . the offscouring of all even until now.
1Cor 8:7 * … until this present*, with … .
The use of UNTIL in question is describing a past event that has come and gone at the time of writing the verse
You must see the difference in usage

But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I know there are scriptural passages that can lead one to believe that Mary and Joseph had other childen as husband and wife.
There are references that point to her Perpetual Virginity as well.

1. Numbers 30 shows that a vow of abstinence, even in marriage, was not unheard of in the Old Testament.
2. St. Jerome argued for the well-known and commonly held belief in Mary’s virginity in St. Jerome’s “The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary” vs Heluidius (380 A.D.)
3. Church approved apparitions always speak of Mary as the Virgin (for example, the Virgin of Guadalupe).

What do you think?

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and she remains faithful!

 

[Stephen168]

ERose, every example you provided was erroneous.
You only provided examples where the author is speaking up to present moment (until now), or to a future moment.
You are correct this usage does not indicate a change of state, only the possibility of one for the future.

The use of UNTIL in question is describing a past event that has come and gone at the time of writing the verse
You must see the difference in usage

Past event: The boy did not drink alcohol until his 21st birthday (implies he now over 21 and has tried alcohol)
Future: The boy was not tried alcohol until now (clearly says he has not tried alcohol)

Past event: The girl was a virgin until her wedding night (implies she is no longer a virgin)
Future: The girl has remained a virgin until this present day (implies she is still a virgin)

ERose, YOU CANNOT FIND an example of until used to describe a past event without also signifying a change of state. You would be smarter to argue the verse was incorrectly translated than dispute the english meaning

Sorry Diana - but NO cigar.
As Dom DeLuise told the male chorus line in Blazing Saddles, “WRONG!”

---

I have illustrated – with the definitions of the Greek, “Heos” (until) - that the word can carry the following meanings:
While***, still, even to the point, since.***

---

Therefore, Matt. 1:25 can (and probably should) be read as one of the following:
1. He had no relations with her while (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
2. He had no relations with her, even to the point (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
3. He had no relations with her since (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.
4. He had no relations with her, still (heos) she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

---

In short - you’re still playing word games with the original Greek. Your** rendering of the Greek is limited to one meaning, while the actual** Greek is not.

---

****CASE CLOSED.

 

[Todd520]

“Heos” (until) - that the word can carry the following meanings:
While, still, even to the point, since.

Stephen,
So you argument is the current English bible translactions are incorrect. :clapping: :tiphat: :clapping:

I agree your alternate translations clearly provide a different meaning.
If you are correct on the error, CASE CLOSED is right

 

[david_ruiz]

QUOTE=ERose;7058224]Because she was humble. Not because of sin but by recognizing her place as a creature of God and to have the servant of God come to her and tell her that she was blessed among women? Should she have been haughty or prideful? Or would a true follower of God be humbled by the fact that her Lord’s messager has come to her to proclaim to her something that has never been proclaimed to another human being. : Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. So she should have jumped up and went out bragging to every one that she was full of grace and that the Lord was with her and she was blessed among women. Do you not understand what humility is and why we should be humble? You and I are sinners yes, but what should humble us is that God the creator of the whole universe has expressed interest in us. That is true humility. Rocognizing that we are sinners is guilt.

Hi Rose ,we go in circles a bit .Yes ,God expresses interest in us , while we were yet sinners. My point is Mary acted like most people in the bible (who just happen to be sinners) when approached by an angel -troubled.There is no indication by her reaction that she was any holier than anyone else. Being troubled may have nothing to do with humility or it’s opposite ,false pride.

Not with many in the Body? You overestimate the number of Protestants my friend. There are probably more people in this world that say the Rosary than there are Protestants. So there are many in the Body that look to Mary.

Perhaps my wording was bad ,but we are saying the same thing . Almost half of Christendom does not pray to Mary .That is many is it not ? Yes ,more than half do pray to Mary.

No it just doesn’t hurt. Jesus will answer the prayers of his mother before he will answer ours. That is just the facts. We have unsure at times where she does not have that problem. When you want God’s help on something important do you go to those that are sinners and not followers of Christ or do you go to those who you consider righteous?

That is scary to me , and seems quite cold , freaky ,superstitious , I am sorry ,but that is how I feel .And yes I use to pray to Mary ,until I truly came to know Jesus . I can get mushy too, for I am part of His bride -we are in love. To say I have better access to Him through my "mother -in-law is a bit cold and creepy. Is He not your lover too ? Mothers have their fantastic place , but not in intimate moments with our betrothed.These are the facts I am faced with.

Careful here. We do not worship Mary. We honor her. There is a difference. But since you didn’t supply real argument against I assume you at least conceed that argument.

Never said you worshipped Mary.Tabernacle (tent) as per Transfiguration is also a place to fellowship-to feel that spiritual high ,to stay in that mountain top experience,as Peter wanted to do (and not move on). I do feel there are many distractions in many cathedrals with all the separate chapels (tabernacles) to Mary and saints-memorializing past works/lives (good to a degree) but bad to another if not focussing on Christ and his present work in us and our world,His kingdom.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

That is scary to me , and seems quite cold , freaky ,superstitious , I am sorry ,but that is how I feel .And yes I use to pray to Mary ,until I truly came to know Jesus . I can get mushy too, for I am part of His bride -we are in love. To say I have better access to Him through my "mother -in-law is a bit cold and creepy. Is He not your lover too ? Mothers have their fantastic place , but not in intimate moments with our betrothed.These are the facts I am faced with.

.

James tells us that the prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective. This indicates that the prayers of the less righteous might be less powerful and less effective.

Why do you think James made this point?

Do you think you will be more righteous when you are in heaven than you are right now?

 

[elvisman]

ERose, every example you provided was erroneous.
You only provided examples where the author is speaking up to present moment (until now), or to a future moment.
You are correct this usage does not indicate a change of state, only the possibility of one for the future.

The use of UNTIL in question is describing a past event that has come and gone at the time of writing the verse
You must see the difference in usage

Past event: The boy did not drink alcohol until his 21st birthday (implies he now over 21 and has tried alcohol)
Future: The boy was not tried alcohol until now (clearly says he has not tried alcohol)

Past event: The girl was a virgin until her wedding night (implies she is no longer a virgin)
Future: The girl has remained a virgin until this present day (implies she is still a virgin)

ERose, YOU CANNOT FIND an example of until used to describe a past event without also signifying a change of state. You would be smarter to argue the verse was incorrectly translated than dispute the english meaning

Todd** – a few posts ago, you accused me of not following the thread.**
After reading this post of yours – it is clear that it is YOU who are not following along.
I addressed this very thing in an earlier post. Read my post #335 where I explain the multiple usages of the Greek word Heos (until).

The use of the word Heos does NOT necessarily signify a change of state.

 

[Rightlydivide]

Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and she remains faithful!

Mary was the spouse of Joseph. Mary was not the spouse of anyone else.

 

[Todd520]

Elvis, and again you are not following the thread.

• I was responding to two specific questions from ERose
• In my responses to ERose, I did offer the position that ‘poor translation’ was a viable alternative
• I replied to Stephen by agreeing 100% that your alternative translations completely change the meaning of Matthew 1:25

My responses to the debate are justified in being limited to the official published English translations. I will not debate whether Heos was translated correctly since I don’t have the background.

NET, net, the strongest Catholic position in this Matthew 1:25 argument is yours - HEOS was translated incorrectly.
Why haven’t the bible experts agreed with your translation?

Todd** – a few posts ago, you accused me of not** following the thread.
After reading this post of yours – it is clear that it is YOU who are not following along.
I addressed this very thing in an earlier post. Read my post #335 where I explain the multiple usages of the Greek word Heos (until).

The use of the word Heos does NOT necessarily signify a change of state.

 

[ERose]

ERose, every example you provided was erroneous.
You only provided examples where the author is speaking up to present moment (until now), or to a future moment.
You are correct this usage does not indicate a change of state, only the possibility of one for the future.

The use of UNTIL in question is describing a past event that has come and gone at the time of writing the verse
You must see the difference in usage

Past event: The boy did not drink alcohol until his 21st birthday (implies he now over 21 and has tried alcohol)
Future: The boy was not tried alcohol until now (clearly says he has not tried alcohol)

Past event: The girl was a virgin until her wedding night (implies she is no longer a virgin)
Future: The girl has remained a virgin until this present day (implies she is still a virgin)

ERose, YOU CANNOT FIND an example of until used to describe a past event without also signifying a change of state. You would be smarter to argue the verse was incorrectly translated than dispute the english meaning

Obviously you didn’t read my examples for if did you would have seen that you are wrong.

Let us use your example. He did not know her until Jesus was born. Using your reasoning that means that directly after Jesus’ birth, Joseph had sex with Mary. According to judaic law that is not possible. You do not have argument here so give it up.

 

[Todd520]

Obviously you didn’t read my examples for if did you would have seen that you are wrong.

Let us use your example. He did not know her until Jesus was born. Using your reasoning that means that directly after Jesus’ birth, Joseph had sex with Mary. According to judaic law that is not possible. You do not have argument here so give it up.

Now you are just being abusive in your logic. No one has ever stated how quickly the change of state happens after the ‘until’ moment.

To be blunt with another example : She did not have ‘relations’ with her husband until after the wedding
This does not mean something happened at the alter, or the reception, or even that specific evening.
It only signifies she had relations with her husband sometime after the wedding.

If the meaning was as you imply, it should have been translated as She did not have ‘relations’ with her husband even after the wedding

 

[Redbaron998]

I never saw why this was ever an issue of contention except that modern protestants thought that since Catholics said it it must be wrong.

Early Church Writings: Virgin
Catholic Church: Virgin
EO: Virgin
Oriental Orthodox: Virgin
Martin Luther: Virgin (Lutherens)
John Calvin: Virgin (Presbyterians)
Henry VII: Virgin (Anglicans)
John Wesly: Virgin (Methodists)

 

[Todd520]

I never saw why this was ever an issue of contention except that modern protestants thought that since Catholics said it it must be wrong.

Early Church Writings: Virgin
Catholic Church: Virgin
EO: Virgin
Oriental Orthodox: Virgin
Martin Luther: Virgin (Lutherens)
John Calvin: Virgin (Presbyterians)
Henry VII: Virgin (Anglicans)
John Wesly: Virgin (Methodists)

Hi Redbaron,
Just to be clear, are you saying each of your examples thought Mary was a perpetual virgin, or just a virgin through the birth of Christ.
This whole debate is about her being a perpetual virgin, a distinction on which you were not clear.

 

[adrift]

From the English Oxford Dictionary: 'until" "Up to (a point or limit): as far as: so as to reach…
"Up to (a given number);
…Onward til (a time specified or indicated); up to the time of (an action, occurrence, etc.)
“before”
“Up to the time that: till the point or degree when…”

All of which definitions absolutely declare an event or boundary that applies to the action being discussed: you do THIS unti THAT occurs, at which time a change happens.

If you do (or don’t do) something until a certain time or event, it is because at the occurance of that time or event there is a change in the course of action being taken (or not taken.)

You remain still until someone tells you to move.
You remain still until the bell rings.
You wander the hills until you find what you were looking for.
…or to use some of the examples from the OED, you 'rub down very poor cheese with water until [it is] of the consistency of cream"

“Syr Gareth rode soo longe in that forest vntyl the nyghte came”
“…a silly wench, who has heard stories of apparitions until she believes them” (Walpole, Castle of Otranto…anybody who has read that thing knows how ironic this sentence is…)
“The time is not long, vuntll thou must trust him with a far greater matter.”
“One tale is good vntill another’s told.”
“Often they will…not move until almost trodden on”

Or, from Shakespeare: "As doubtfull whether what I see be true, Vntill confirm’s, sign’d, ratified by you. "

Every single use of “until” requires this; an action…which is carried up to a point of interuption, then bounded by a change. “Until” that time, one is this, and after that time, one is…that./

I gave you the exact definition from the Oxford English Dictionary. That’s about as standard as it gets.

You gave the definition in red but then added to it. The blue is not the dictionary definiton but your comments. The standard definiton does not support your comments. The standard definition only tells you up to the time of (an action, occurrence, etc.). It does not prove that Mary did not have other children nor does it prove she did. It is nuetral by the definition you provided.

 

[Todd520]

You gave the definition in red but then added to it. The blue is not the dictionary definiton but your comments. The standard definiton does not support your comments. The standard definition only tells you up to the time of (an action, occurrence, etc.). It does not prove that Mary did not have other children nor does it prove she did. It is nuetral by the definition you provided.

adrift, the smart move is to side with Elvis and state HEOS was not translated correctly.

If it was translated correctly, then you should be able to provide plenty of usage examples with a past event where there was no change - this excludes using ‘until now’ as cited in above posts. Please give us usage examples where it is neutral (past event, not present or future)
Using the same sentence structure as: “he took his wife, but knew her not until she had given birth to a son”. Try filling in the ()

**he **(action), **but did not **(action) **until **(event)