Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

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elvisman,would you mind straightening out a little confusion for me?

For instance, in post# 393, you write: “Finally – I want to thank you for proving me right by disapproving of my use of color. I have pointed out the fact – on MANY posts that people usually resort to this attack when they have run out of “proofs” for their positions . . .”

Could you reconcile that statement with this one (again,. from you…) “I never declared a debate “win”.” (because declaring that being ‘proven right’ is usually considered claiming a win…)

.and then, could you reconcile both of the above quotes, especially the one where you claim that you have pointed out on ‘many’ posts that 'people usually resort to this attack when they have run out of ‘proof’s’ for their positions, with the claim that nobody has mentioned your use of color on this board in six years?

Just asking.
Diana -
My comment that people’s comments about my use of color usually means they have nothing left to say is not a declaration of victory. It is merely a declaration that they have run out of things to say. The final decision as to who “won” is left up to the reader.

As for my comment about nobody having complained about my use of color in 6 years - that’s not what I said. I said that the coding issue (where they can see all of the codes in the reply) has never been brought up in the 6 years that I have been here.

Hope that helps.
 
Has this been talked about yet:Psalm 69:8 - " I am become a stranger unto my bretheren,and an alien unto my mother’s children. 9:For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up,and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me".Verse 9 is aid to be referring to Jesus according to the gospels .So I gather is verse 8.Pretty specific to me -Mary had children .What has been rhe Cathoilc response thru the ages ?
**This prophecy is speaking about the nation of Israel in context because they rejected him. **
 
Has this been talked about yet:Psalm 69:8 - " I am become a stranger unto my bretheren,and an alien unto my mother’s children. 9:For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up,and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me".Verse 9 is aid to be referring to Jesus according to the gospels .So I gather is verse 8.Pretty specific to me -Mary had children .What has been rhe Cathoilc response thru the ages ?
**This prophecy is speaking about the nation of Israel in context because they rejected him. **
It’s not about uterine siblings.
 
The proofs we Catholics use to buttress the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary often remind me of the proofs that were used when I was a Mormon to buttress the Book of Mormon. As a Mormon we started from the standpoint of having faith in the Book of Mormon and then used anything we could find to try and prove our faith. It didn’t matter if the proofs held water as long as they could somehow support our belief in the Book of Mormon. I see the same thing happening with regards to the perpetual virginity of Mary. Someone decided 100 years after Mary that she must have been a perpetural virgin – perhaps a reasonable assumption. Unfortunately, there are no reliable witnesses to the original events to offer any proof of her perpetual virginity.
Stephen168;7058051:
Are you expecting a witness to something that did not happen?
The reason I ask is because it sounds like a similar demand for evidence when I asked a Mormon for proof of the Book of Mormon. Her response was, “Prove the story isn’t true.”

So we have two events which Mormons claim happened; Mary had relations with Joseph, and the story in the Book of Mormon. When asked to prove either of them, the Mormon demands the person prove the negative, “Prove it did not happen!” Theoretically, one could prove a negative, but to cover all the possibilities makes it practically impossible. So we traditionally would put the burden of proof on the person claiming it happened.

The difference in your comparison is the Catholic Church is on the side of an agreement that claims something did NOT happen, so the burden is on the folks who claim it did. The Mormon Church is on the side of an agreement that claims something did happen with no why to prove it and the burden is on the Mormon Church. So they are not the same.
 
So you will deny this on the point that you do not have enough info to make an assertion one way or the other? So for you, from the way I understand this point, is that you just don’t know. That is fine. There is nothing wrong with saying you don’t know. I respect that.
A more accurate description would be “there’s no way to be sure, but the assumption is that she was fully a wife to Joseph until something proves that she wasn’t.”

I just don’t see how her being fully a wife to Joseph affects her role as the mother of Jesus in any way.
No your argument has been all along if I understand it. Is that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations and that they had children besides Jesus. Or are you arguing that you don’t know one way of the other? If it is the former you are making a claim and you must support it. If it is the latter then I agree with you and I can accept that.
My argument is that, absent any real evidence for her continued virginity, that it is wisest to assume that she was indeed fully a wife to Joseph, and given that, it’s more probable that she had other children than not. It really is the 'if you drop a ball, it’s safer to assume that it’s going to hit the ground than not, unless someone can prove that it didn’t." In this case, it’s…if a man marries a woman, absent any evidence to the contrary, it’s safer to assume that they eventually have sex than that they don’t…and if a woman has been safely delivered of one child, and stays in a marriage, it’s quite probable that she had other children—unless someone can prove that she did not.

Given also that my beliefs do not attach any special virtue to virginity within a marriage, and in fact has no tradition at all that would make lifelong virginity (deliberately chosen when marriage to the right person was an option) at all an admirable choice, I think you can see my problem.

Jewish culture and tradition, too, mitigate against that idea. So…the question is, why is it so important that Mary BE a perpetual virgin?

In all honesty, I never have been able to figure that one out.
So you think being the Mother of the Saviour of the World is not an extraordinary circumstance?
yes…but that doesn’t mean that she remained a virgin all her life.
No you are innocent and it is purpose of the prosecution to prove your guilt.
Indeed, and the only other verdict is not ‘innocent,’ but ‘not guilty.’

In this case, it’s “Mary remained a perpetual virgin,” or “you haven’t proven that she was…” or “there isn’t enough evidence to show that she was.” That is NOT the same thing as “I can prove she wasn’t.”

Unless you can prove she was, her culture and her beliefs would very much mitigate AGAINST her remaining so, y’know…going by simple “probables,” then, she probably wasn’t. Please note, though…I’m not making claims of absolutes here, the way y’all are.

…to be continued…
 
There is no way to prove or disprove that Mary remained a virgin using the Bible.

What we can learn from the Bible:
Mary asks a strange question for a married woman when she delcares she knows not man.
It points to a vow of virginity.

In the telling of the trip to the temple, there is no mention of any children of Mary’s.

Jesus is refered as the son of Mary not a Son of Mary.

John 7
3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may behold thy works which thou doest.
In the culture, the elders gave advise so this indicates that “His Brethern” are older and Jesus is younger
Mark 3:21 also demonstrates elders addressing a younger person.
That Jesus provided for Mary also indicates He was an only child.

All of this points to Jesus being an only child but not that Mary was a prepetual Virgin.

What we have is Mary’s own words “I know not man” . What was she asking the angel? She was asking exactly what others contend here. She was asking if she was being released from her vow. The angel answered in the negative in telling her that it would be the Holy Spirit that would over shadow her. Thereby upholding “I know not man”
 
…yep, it was continued…
But that being said is that you are making a claim.
er, no…I’m simply pointing out that y’all haven’t proven yours, and absent such proof, the probabilities go the other way. 😉
And as such you must support that claim which you have admitted you cannot do. The only verses you have is the verse in Matthew, which you have to take out of context, and the verses speaking of the brethren of the Lord, which I have shown in other posts that these people where at best cousins of the Lord. I find it interesting that in the New Testament we have the names of at least 5 relatives of Jesus besides Mary. Two of the being apostles: James the less and Jude and three others Simon, Joseph, and Salome which are at best cousins of Jesus. Yet we have no names whatsoever of a biological brother or sister of Jesus. Where are they? I would think that these brothers and/or sisters would have at least been mentioned somewhere in all of the NT. Yet nothing. I know 5 cousins from the NT but no true brothers or sisters. That seems extraordinary to me.

Against all law and custom. So Mosaic law states you absolutely must have sex with your husband/wife or you are a sinner? You are definitely stretching it. You are considering that the situation of the birth of Jesus was a normal situation which we know that it wasn’t. So all customs go out of the window when you are discussing something extraordinary.
Y’know, that’s not a logical argument, Rose. Simply because something is extraordinary in one way does NOT mean that you can attach all sorts of other extraordinary baggage to the claim. One could, with equal reason, claim that because Mary was the mother of Jesus, that she sprouted wings and flew. Why not? Wasn’t she extraordinary?
The reason why you keep asserting that you do not have to prove anything is because you cannot.
No, it’s because I don’t. I’m not the one making the extraordinary claim. You are.
You know as well as I do that the evidence shows that she never ever lost her virginity.
Obviously I don’t know that, and the NT sure doesn’t show that. Sacred Tradition informs YOU that she remained a virgin…but Rose? I can’t use Sacred Tradition as evidence for anything I believe. Sorry.
And you cannot supply even a shread of proof otherwise, so you try to switch responsibility.
No, I’m putting the responsibility precisely where it belongs. You realize, don’t you, that your claim is a little like claiming that the center of the sun must be purple—because nobody can prove that it isn’t?
This I agree and quite honestly I do not think I need it. Not any longer.
You don’t need the NT any longer??? (or were you referring to Sacred Tradition?)
Those verses mitigate against it by you either taking them out of context or outright misquoting them. But that is something we are used to.
Wow. Do you have a CLUE how fast I would get reported to the moderators, and end up with points and infractions, if I said anything similar to you?
 
er, no…I’m simply pointing out that y’all haven’t proven yours, and absent such proof, the probabilities go the other way. 😉
**Ummm . . . according to WHOSE rules?
I’ve never even heard that as a joke.

Debates can - and usually do - end not with concrete evidence but with both sides having left some doubts in their paths.

The points made on the Catholic side have been pretty much ignored by the nay-sayers in this thread. The argument about the use of the word “until” has been all bud obliterated.

The arguments about the "brethren" of Jesus has been handily laid to rest - using Scripture.

Mary’s response to the angel Gabriel would have been quite bizarre if you were to take the Protestant position that she knew she was going to enter a "normal" marriage, having relations with her husband.


I’d say that the evidence presented thus far buttresses the Catholic position on Mary. The Protestant arguments have been rather weak, I must say.**
 
Marys perpetual Virginity, periodically, always seems to be an issue to be called into question, by someone. Even prominent popular authors today will call into question not only the verity of Scripture, but even the chastity of our Lord, for the sake of book sales. The challengers usually reveal an ignorance of the Scriptural-era Hebrew cultural notion of the professed virgin.

Understanding this historical cultural notion is prerequisite to understanding the wording of certain Scriptural passages; in the time and culture of the period, all young women in that culture were assumed to be virgins, and they would be normally referred to as young women; the only ones that would be referred to as virgins, whether in Scripture or elsewhere, would be those who had taken vows involving lifelong virginity, involving dedication to the Lord. Both men and women took such vows, although the practice predominated among women. St. Jerome, in the opinion of many, the greatest Scripture scholar who ever lived, opined that even St. Joseph had eventually taken such a vow.

The inspired author of Luke 1:26-27 would never have referred to Mary as a virgin if she was no different than all the other young ladies at the time, all of whom were virgins; she would have been referred to simply as a young woman, like all the others. The fact that she was referred to in this Scripture verse as a virgin is quite remarkable; that particular usage had a major significance in that time and place and culture.

Some contend that Matt. 1:24-25 indicating that Joseph had no relations with Mary until she bore her first-born son indicates somehow that he had relations with her afterward. It indicates no such thing. Until (Greek: heos) simply means hither to or up to and makes no statement at all about any future activity. For example, 1 Cor. 15:25 statement that Jesus must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet does not mean that He will not reign afterward.

And, some contend that the terminology first born son itself carries within it the notion that there must have been other sons. Well, again, we need to look to ancient Hebrew cultural norms. First born son was a legal as well as an important cultural term. It denoted the one to whom the inheritance goes. It involves a significant legal birth-right, a significant familial rank, and a significant cultural title. The first born son was always announced with proclamation and fanfare.

The most recent popular challenge to the Scriptural era cultural notion of perpetual virginity comes to us in the Da Vinci Code, a quite popular best seller. It appears to have been motivated by some vague anti-Catholicism, but on closer examination what it turns out to be is anti-Christian, and a great deal more anti-Protestant than anti-Catholic, even though it appears that it wasn’t planned thataway.

It involves a power-play by the Fathers of the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, in which they, under the direction of the newly converted emperor Constantine, manufactured new “scripture” in which Jesus Christ was made to be divine. Previously, he had just been a pretty cool guy with a lot of wisdom, see, and a lot of popularity among the common people. The author seems to have followed ancient heretics, beginning with Arius, always opposing orthodoxy, supporting heterodoxy, and agreeing with the opponents of the possessors of the Keys and the power to bind and to loose. A rather negative way to look at the history of the Church, and to take the part of those who lost the argument, some of whom formed heretical cults.

The fictional new small-s scripture story of the Code involves a wild story of how the un-divine Jesus married Mary Magdalene, see, and went to live with her in Europe, where they had children, and thus His bloodline continues; and the Catholic Church covered it all up and secretly corrupted Scripture in doing so, just to keep their phony religion going. But, genius that he was, Da Vinci figured this sneaky Catholic Scriptural trickery out, see? And then he hid all kinds of clues regarding it in his artwork, so that some future Inspector Clouseau could one day decipher them. See?

The errors in the Da Vinci Code, which appear on nearly every page, are so gross as to be comical. This goes for any subject area of study, from history, to art, to art history, to Scripture, to Scripture history, to the life and religion and behavior of Da Vinci, to even the timing regarding the very existence of cults and groups used in the Code. While I elsewhere take issue with America’s Catholic Bishops, in their majority, I must here congratulate them on an excellent new website addressing the many errors of the Code, which may be found right here: “American Bishops Respond to the Da Vinci Code”

A couple of Protestants I argued with over this seemed pleased with themselves and the apparant discomfort of Catholics with the roaring success of the Da Vinci Code until I pointed out to them that this book calls into question the divinity of the Lord. I’m still amazed that I even had to point that out to them. The very root of Christianity is mocked in a piece of fiction that is selling like hotcakes to Protestant readers?
 
Diana -
My comment that people’s comments about my use of color usually means they have nothing left to say is not a declaration of victory.
No, elvis…declaring that you have been ‘proven right.’ does, though.
** It is merely a declaration that they have run out of things to say. The final decision as to who “won**” is left up to the reader.
Well, that’s actually true. The final decision is up to the reader. That does not, I find, stop people from claiming the win–or claiming that they have been 'proven right."
**As for my comment about nobody **having complained about my use of color in 6 years - that’s not what I said.
I’m sorry, elvis, but your quote is: “You and Todd are actually the very first posters to bring up the coding issue in my 6 years on this forum.”…

The fact that we narrowed part of the problem down to coding doesn’t mean that the objection isn’t pretty much the same objection—or that pointing out how distracting it is (as well how annoying the results of all that coding are) does not mean that you have been proven right about the points you are making in such a manner.

After all…most people object highly to graffiti on bridges, too–but objecting to it doesn’t prove the sentiments expressed BY that graffiti to be correct and valuable, does it?

…and to go back to a comparison I made earlier; objecting to the format of anti-Catholic pamphlets that also use extensive red type and bolding doesn’t prove that what they say is true, does it?
You and Todd are actually the very first posters to bring up the coding issue in my 6 years on this forum. I said that the coding issue (where they can see all of the codes in the reply) has never been brought up in the 6 years that I have been here.

Hope that helps.
Actually, it doesn’t. I did address more than the coding. I did also address the appearance. The problem is, that’s a design preference. You can do whatever you want, and emphasize your words however you want.

Having people point out that your use of color and font is over-the-top, distracting and ultimately coutner productive for your purposes is not proving you right about your positions. IT’s simply letting you know that emphasis is more effective when gently used.
 
This is kinda funny to me, although I guess as a Catholic it is kind of a given. Even if it weren’t enough for me that Holy Mother Church teaches this (it is) countless Catholic apologists, biblical scholars, and the first Christians and Church Fathers all came to the conclusion (or were taught by the Apostles[or it was common knowledge], in the case of the first Christians and Church fathers) that Mary’s virginity is perpetual. Look at the supposed “biblical evidence” (the verses people use to try to argue that Jesus had brothers and sisters) in their original languages, in the context of culture, and it is very clear they were never meant to suggest Jesus had siblings or that Mary ceased being a virgin after the birth of Jesus. This is briefly but adequately covered in Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, by the way.

So with not a hair of evidence to deny Mary’s perpetual virginity, and over 2000 years of tradition mainitaining her virginity… yep, I’ll go with the Church! 😉
 
No, elvis…declaring that you have been ‘proven right.’ does, though.

Well, that’s actually true. The final decision is up to the reader. That does not, I find, stop people from claiming the win–or claiming that they have been 'proven right."

I’m sorry, elvis, but your quote is: “You and Todd are actually the very first posters to bring up the coding issue in my 6 years on this forum.”…

So you think that, perhaps, your extensive use of coding is making it difficult for you to read, and remember, your own posts?

Actually, it doesn’t. I did address more than the coding. I did also address the appearance. The problem is, that’s a design preference. You can do whatever you want, and emphasize your words however you want.

Having people point out that your use of color and font is over-the-top, distracting and ultimately coutner productive for your purposes is not proving you right about your positions. IT’s simply letting you know that emphasis is more effective when gently used.
A few last comments on the subject - as it seems you are becoming obssessed.
**When I said you proved me right, it was not about being right on my positions but in the fact that you were running out of things to say.

When I said that you and Todd were the only ones who had addressed the coding issue - Whether you believe me or not - I was speaking only about the coding that appears in the reply windows.

Now, I will put this issue to rest and pray that you can respond to some of the points I’ve made about the topic of the thread. I am starting to believe my first statement to you about your comments about the color.

Maybe you have run out of things to say on the topic . . . 🤷**
 
No, I’m putting the responsibility precisely where it belongs. You realize, don’t you, that your claim is a little like claiming that the center of the sun must be purple—because nobody can prove that it isn’t?
No, you are claiming something is (Mary/Joseph relations), we claim it isn’t. So it is you that is claiming the center of the sun is purple because we can’t prove it is not. Of course, I am assuming you know that people are born virgins and some event, which you cannot prove, must take place.
 
**Ummm . . . according to *WHOSE ***rules?
I’ve never even heard that as a joke.
Debates can - and usually do - end not with concrete evidence but with both sides having left some doubts in their paths.

Of course. That’s not what you claimed for yourself, though.
The points made on the Catholic side have been pretty much ignored by the nay-sayers in this thread. The argument about the use of the word “until” has been all bud obliterated.
(grin) Well, no…wishing doesn’t make it so, elvisman, and declaring that you have been proven right does not mean that you have been proven right. Sorry.
The arguments about the "brethren" of Jesus has been handily laid to rest - using Scripture.
Well no, not really.
Mary’s response to the angel Gabriel would have been quite bizarre if you were to take the Protestant position that she knew she was going to enter a "normal" marriage, having relations with her husband.
Not it wasn’t. She was speaking in present tense…and the event in question was happening ‘present tense.’
I’d say that the evidence presented thus far buttresses the Catholic** position on Mary. The Protestant arguments have been rather weak, I must say.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, however you express it.
 
I know there are scriptural passages that can lead one to believe that Mary and Joseph had other childen as husband and wife.
There are references that point to her Perpetual Virginity as well.
  1. Numbers 30 shows that a vow of abstinence, even in marriage, was not unheard of in the Old Testament.
  2. St. Jerome argued for the well-known and commonly held belief in Mary’s virginity in St. Jerome’s “The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary” vs Heluidius (380 A.D.)
  3. Church approved apparitions always speak of Mary as the Virgin (for example, the Virgin of Guadalupe).
What do you think?
There are scriptural passages that can lead one to believe virtually anything…or nothing at all, especially when we are recollected to the fact that the adversary of truth, and all of mankind is quite an expert on the Scriptures and language himself. This is only one very important reason why Our Lord gave the guarantee of The Holy Spirit…".The Spirit to guide you into all truth"…not to The World at that time but only to the Apostles, and in a certain way made St. Peter the person of authority to be obeyed.
He (St. Peter) immediately tells us an amazing truth, that: “The true understanding of The Scriptures is not a matter of anyone’s interpretation.”
Only the True Church can teach Scriptural Truth, and although it is often times forgotten;this Scriptural Truth is the primary basis for Sacred Tradition, and what we may call Sacred Exegesis, and what we may call: the fullness of Scriptural Revelation in the Fullness ot Time.
Of the sum verses which are always employed, inappropriately I might add, in opposition to Mary as “Ever Virgin” there is really only one in my opinion which can remain after scrutiny to purport that Our Lord had sibling brothers and sisters, and even this verse could be disallowed or in the least doubted in that vein when we observe accurately that in every reference to the Apostles and Disciples (whom we know for a fact were not his siblings) they are called:“His Brethren”.
Of the sum verses, chapters actually, which I must say plainly and unmistakably, tell us as a matter of truth, that our dear Most Blessed Mother, Glorious Mary is Ever and Eternally Virgen, are myriad.
Those of us who love her will gladly place the scriptural weights of this arguement upon the balance scales at any time.
I could and will continue quite a bit more if you wish. But if this enough for you then let it be enough. Yes, we most certainly believe in the Perpetual Virginity of The Blessed Virgin Mary
 
This is kinda funny to me, although I guess as a Catholic it is kind of a given. Even if it weren’t enough for me that Holy Mother Church teaches this (it is) countless Catholic apologists, biblical scholars, and the first Christians and Church Fathers all came to the conclusion (or were taught by the Apostles[or it was common knowledge], in the case of the first Christians and Church fathers) that Mary’s virginity is perpetual. Look at the supposed “biblical evidence” (the verses people use to try to argue that Jesus had brothers and sisters) in their original languages, in the context of culture, and it is very clear they were never meant to suggest Jesus had siblings or that Mary ceased being a virgin after the birth of Jesus. This is briefly but adequately covered in Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, by the way.

So with not a hair of evidence to deny Mary’s perpetual virginity, and over 2000 years of tradition mainitaining her virginity… yep, I’ll go with the Church! 😉
…and as long as you are a true believing Catholic, you absolutely should. You would, in fact, be a bit of a hypocrite if you didn’t.

In fact, if you ever decided that the length of time a belief has existed is not proof of the accuracy of that belief, and thus decided that it’s possible that the church could be wrong about this, you would be a (whisper this one) a Protestant. 😉

The thing is, m’friend, that the OP question was addressed to both Catholic and non-Catholic. I know why Catholics believe this.

Do you understand why non-Catholics might not?
 
**This prophecy is speaking about the nation of Israel **in context because they rejected him.
**It’s not **about uterine siblings.
Psalm 69:,8,9 " I am become a stranger to my bretheren ,and an alien unto my mother’s children. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.The reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen on me". It is about: # 1- the world (anyone who “reproaches” God), # 2-Israel (reproach God also ) by estranged bretheren, # 3-his siblings-children of Mary are “alien” to the Lord . Yes context ,context context .They ALL reject the Messiah. It is an amazing specific prophecy .It is just not the world and Israel , it is also his brothers and sisters -very specific and you can not get much worse in being rejected than your own family. Notice a stranger to His bretheren but alien to his siblings -an alien is far worse than stranger -the pain progresses as only a Psalm could poetically portray.It is a heartbreaking ,dark prophecy .The next verse is very specific also where His zeal eats him up as He overturns the tables at the temple.Very specific ,wow!
How can Mary bear or give birth to a rejecting Israel ? A poor symbolism at best. Why do you not symbolize also In Revelations , that the woman is Israel ,and not the Assumed Mary ,as I have seen stated.CC is very specific there. Anyways you give no valid reason for the children not being uterine siblings-they were part of a rejecting Israel .Surely there must be a better rebuttal .
 
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