Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

[guanophore]

I just read Numbers 30 for the first time, and may have missed it’s relevance.

It is the Mosaic instructions about women taking vows, including chastity. Mary never intended to have relations with Joseph. She was given into his care as a consecrated virgin. That is why, when the angel came to her, she said “I know not man” (I live a lifestyle of no relations). Joseph accepted her vow, according to the Mosaic law.

Since Mary’s wedding was planned before her pregnancy, it appears to me she was no longer committed to lifelong service as a consecrated virgin in the Temple in Jerusalem. I believe her vow of celibacy would no longer apply since it contradicts the purpose of matrimony.

All consecrated virgins were given into the care of a husband when they reached adolescence. You are right, the Gospel of St. James is not considered scripture, but it is a helpful historical document that shows us how this customary practice was conducted.

Virgins were given to older men who had already had their families, because the purpose of the marriage was for the protection of the virgin, not for the marital embrace.

 

[guanophore]

Here we go again!!

When Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was a virgin.

From there we know nothing for sure but Matthew 1:25,26 makes it clear that she was a virgin up til the birth of Jesus and then there was most probably a change.

You may not know, since you have not accepted the Sacred Tradition, but I can assure you the Apostles knew she had no other children, and this is what they have passed down to us in the once for all Divine Deposit of faith.

 

[Mike2010]

the bible never says mary has another child and she was a virgin when she gave birth to jesus.

So my best guess is that she is a virgin for all of her life (i think thats what perpetual virgin means)

but do you have verses to say otherwise

Correct, The Bible never says that Mary had other children or had sex. This does not take away the fact that sex in marraige is holy and a gift from God.

 

[Roy5]

My Bible (in Matthew) also traces the lineage of Jesus through Joseph. True, it does note that he was the husband of Mary, but appears to refer to his father as Jesus’ grandfather and not Joachim, which tradition says was the father of Mary. So, both family trees are through Joseph and not Mary.

I also am troubled that the two lines do not concur, and also that if they are correct, especially the one on Luke, humankind is not nearly as old as archeology has suggested. Luke 3 assumes that the story of Adam is history - "the son of Adam, the son of God’. What of us who can’t accept Genesis 1-2 as history, but respect it instead as a fable that makes a moral point? How are we supposed to interpret this ancestral chart?

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know whether or not Mary was a perpetual virgin or not. What I don’t understand is why it makes all that much differenence.

The once for all divine deposit of faith given to the Church is to be maintained in it’s entirety. We are not at libery to add, subtract, or decide for oursleves that this or that part is “not essential to salvation”. It is the Revelation of God to man, and must be preserved as it was handed down.

 

[Mike2010]

Here we go again!!

When Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was a virgin.

From there we know nothing for sure but Matthew 1:25,26 makes it clear that she was a virgin up til the birth of Jesus and then there was most probably a change.

This doesn’t necessarily imply that her virginity changed after the birth of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:25 has a similar situation where “until” doesn’t necessarily mean a condition changed after something happened. In this verse, it says that Christ, “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.”

I doubt that Christ doesn’t reign until only after all his enemies are put under His feet. Instead, Christ actually reigns forever.

 

[lax16]

Here we go again!!

When Mary gave birth to Jesus, she was a virgin.

From there we know nothing for sure but Matthew 1:25,26 makes it clear that she was a virgin up til the birth of Jesus and then there was most probably a change.

Do you think that we should also take into account the writings of the Early Church Fathers on the topic? Or the apparitions?

 

[guanophore]

What of us who can't accept Genesis 1-2 as history, but respect it instead as a fable that makes a moral point? How are we supposed to interpret this ancestral chart?

I think that only Jews, Muslims, and Christians accept it as the inspired, inerrant Word of God…

Christians are supposed to interpret it according to what God has revealed to the Church.

For people like yourself, who reject the faith, and the Church, I guess it really doesnt matter how you interpret it. You can interpret it as a fable, as literature, whatever.

 

[lax16]

To answer your question, No.

That sounds like your opinion, which is fine.

Have you read any of the sources provided by any of the posters that would challenge your position?

The Early Church Fathers for instance?

 

[KathleenGee]

People do not have threads here on CAF regarding traditional Catholic spirituality. We have several doctors of the Church regarding this discipline of integrity of faith.

It is aptly pointed out that Christ gave the care of Mary to St. John the Evangelist…there was no one else.

We live in a sex saturated society…people think you have to have sex to build the kingdom…In Christ’s it is not necessary…and its act implies a different vocation of caring for one’s young vs. total commitment to serving the Kingdom. Mary shared the same mission as Christ…bringing forth the Messiah…

I cannot imagine Christ having sinful brothers and sisters who would have undoubtedly taken Mary away from serving and caring for Christ.

She appeared to St. Bernadette and when asked her name, she replied, “I am the Immaculate Conception”…conceived without sin…a creation of God Himself…not a man-made designation. Mary does not have a constitution like us.

The greater study is sin and redemption, and their appropriate properties and conditions. Mary was instrumental in giving Christ His humanity, His body and blood that we now receive in the Eucharist, and subsequently, we cannot separate Mary from Christ.

 

[guanophore]

It is aptly pointed out that Christ gave the care of Mary to St. John the Evangelist…there was no one else.

We live in a sex saturated society…people think you have to have sex to build the kingdom…In Christ’s it is not necessary…and its act implies a different vocation of caring for one’s young vs. total commitment to serving the Kingdom. Mary shared the same mission as Christ…bringing forth the Messiah…

I cannot imagine Christ having sinful brothers and sisters who would have undoubtedly taken Mary away from serving and caring for Christ.

She appeared to St. Bernadette and when asked her name, she replied, “I am the Immaculate Conception”…conceived without sin…a creation of God Himself…not a man-made designation. Mary does not have a constitution like us.

The greater study is sin and redemption, and their appropriate properties and conditions. Mary was instrumental in giving Christ His humanity, His body and blood that we now receive in the Eucharist, and subsequently, we cannot separate Mary from Christ.

I am confused about why this is so hard for people. God created Eve without sin. It’s not like He never did it before?!

 

[Dokimas]

You may not know, since you have not accepted the Sacred Tradition, but I can assure you the Apostles knew she had no other children, and this is what they have passed down to us in the once for all Divine Deposit of faith.

How long do you think it took for error to spread within the church?

 

[JonNC]

I know there are scriptural passages that can lead one to believe that Mary and Joseph had other childen as husband and wife.
There are references that point to her Perpetual Virginity as well.

1. Numbers 30 shows that a vow of abstinence, even in marriage, was not unheard of in the Old Testament.
2. St. Jerome argued for the well-known and commonly held belief in Mary’s virginity in St. Jerome’s “The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary” vs Heluidius (380 A.D.)
3. Church approved apparitions always speak of Mary as the Virgin (for example, the Virgin of Guadalupe).

What do you think?

From the Formula of Concord:

On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed Virgin, bore not a mere man, but, as the angel [Gabriel] testifies, such a man as is truly the Son of the most high God, who showed His divine majesty even in His mother’s womb, inasmuch as He was born of a virgin, with her virginity inviolate. Therefore she is truly the mother of God, and nevertheless remained a virgin.

Some Lutherans would say that she had other children. I read this as she remained ever virgin.

Jon

 

[Dokimas]

I am confused about why this is so hard for people. God created Eve without sin. It’s not like He never did it before?!

Were Eve’s parents sinners with a sin nature to pass on to her?

 

[wanner47]

Were Eve’s parents sinners with a sin nature to pass on to her?

Are you saying it’d be impossible for God to do?

 

[Dokimas]

Are you saying it’d be impossible for God to do?

No.

I’m saying Guano’s logic was flawed as far as it went.

Why doesn’t God make us all without sin and let us make mistakes thus become sinners or not sin and we worthy of salvation on our own?

 

[Cranmer2010]

I know there are scriptural passages that can lead one to believe that Mary and Joseph had other childen as husband and wife.
There are references that point to her Perpetual Virginity as well.

1. Numbers 30 shows that a vow of abstinence, even in marriage, was not unheard of in the Old Testament.
2. St. Jerome argued for the well-known and commonly held belief in Mary’s virginity in St. Jerome’s “The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary” vs Heluidius (380 A.D.)
3. Church approved apparitions always speak of Mary as the Virgin (for example, the Virgin of Guadalupe).

What do you think?

I tend to believe that Holy Scripture would showcase this if it were in fact reality. It however does not so therefore I do not believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin. I would also say that the Scriptures do more to show a normal marriage for Joseph and Mary than to say that they did not have sex.

 

[Catholic20064]

I know there are scriptural passages that can lead one to believe that Mary and Joseph had other childen as husband and wife.
There are references that point to her Perpetual Virginity as well.

1. Numbers 30 shows that a vow of abstinence, even in marriage, was not unheard of in the Old Testament.
2. St. Jerome argued for the well-known and commonly held belief in Mary’s virginity in St. Jerome’s “The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary” vs Heluidius (380 A.D.)
3. Church approved apparitions always speak of Mary as the Virgin (for example, the Virgin of Guadalupe).

What do you think?

I sometimes wonder what difference it makes. It doesn’t change the fact that Christ was born of a virgin, died for my sins and rose from the dead either way.

 

[Dokimas]

I sometimes wonder what difference it makes. It doesn’t change the fact that Christ was born of a virgin, died for my sins and rose from the dead either way.

Good point!!!

 

[JonNC]

I sometimes wonder what difference it makes. It doesn’t change the fact that Christ was born of a virgin, died for my sins and rose from the dead either way.

Guano will tell you that it is part of the full deposit of faith, and therfore ought to be believed. YOur position is somewhat like that of Lutherans - idiaphora.

Jon