Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

[Barbkw]

Can a man and a women love each other and remain chaste and celibate throughout their marriage and life?

Yes, of course.

At the cross, Mary was there - without Joseph - and the only other male there was Jesus’ chosen apostle John. If Mary had children, where were they at the cross, or at the tomb?

If I’d been Joseph (experiencing side by side the events of the Gospels) I would have seriously questioned the human / Divine aspect of marriage with Mary, my sexual relationship with her, and my relationship as stepfather to the Divine Son of God.

This begs the question as well to be asked, concerning the Divinity of the Son of God. At what age does God know, that He is God? All Powerful, All Knowing, All Loving, God.

 

[lax16]

It feeds into the misperception that even within married life the Catholic Church sees sex as more of a necessary evil than an uplifting union of a married man and woman.

Hi Catholic20064 - What??!! I am not sure who you are hanging around with that you get these ideas about Church teachings? If you do not have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is available online. (bold emphasis; mine)

CHAPTER THREE
THE SACRAMENTS AT THE SERVICE OF COMMUNION

ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the **procreation **and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

I. MARRIAGE IN GOD’S PLAN

1602 Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of "the wedding-feast of the Lamb."85 Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its “mystery,” its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and its renewal “in the Lord” in the New Covenant of Christ and the Church.86

Marriage in the order of creation

1603 "The **intimate **community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws. . . . God himself is the author of marriage."87 The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity,88 some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. "The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the **healthy state of conjugal **and family life."89

1604 God who created man out of love also calls him to love the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love.90 Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be **fruitful **and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: "And God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.’"91

1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."92 The woman, “flesh of his flesh,” his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a “helpmate”; she thus represents God from whom comes our help.93 "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."94 The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been “in the beginning”: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."95

I. “MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM . . .”

2331 "God is love and in himself he lives a mystery of personal loving communion. Creating the human race in his own image . . … God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, and thus the capacity and responsibility, of love and communion."114

“God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them”;115 He blessed them and said, “**Be fruitful **and multiply”;116 "When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created."117

2332 **Sexuality **affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.

2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.

2334 "In creating men ‘male and female,’ God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."118 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."119

2335 Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way. The union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator’s generosity and fecundity: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."120 All human generations proceed from this union.121

 

[Jesness]

Spiritually speaking, I believe she is a perpetual virgin, that is to say that she never ‘defiled herself’ in her heart with idols or any other ungodly thing; however, physically, I don’t believe she is a perpetual virgin. The scriptures say that Joseph ‘did not know his wife until she had borne her first son.’ ‘knowing her’ was the polite way of saying they consummated the marriage. If people want to honor her as a perpetual virgin, I don’t take issue with it, but for me personally, that doesn’t seem to be what the evidence provides for.

 

[wanner47]

Spiritually speaking, I believe she is a perpetual virgin, that is to say that she never ‘defiled herself’ in her heart with idols or any other ungodly thing; however, physically, I don’t believe she is a perpetual virgin. The scriptures say that Joseph ‘did not know his wife until she had borne her first son.’ ‘knowing her’ was the polite way of saying they consummated the marriage. If people want to honor her as a perpetual virgin, I don’t take issue with it, but for me personally, that doesn’t seem to be what the evidence provides for.

So when the Bible says that David’s wife Michal had no children until the day she died, that meant she gave birth after her death…?

 

[dianaiad]

Not to mention that you both believe we’re apostates.

That is true of any Christian belief about all other Christian beliefs. If it were not, there wouldn’t BE so many different Christian beliefs.

 

[Jesness]

So when the Bible says that David’s wife Michal had no children until the day she died, that meant she gave birth after her death…?

I’m sorry, my brain is not running on all cylinders today… What part of my post are you taking issue with specifically?

 

[dianaiad]

**I was not trying to convince anyone of anything. I was hoping posters would provide what they considered to be proof of either side of the argument. Not just opinions. Frankly, I grow weary of those who need to be spoon-fed every little bit of information on a topic and don’t give it much research and thought. Just knee-jerk, stuck-in-my-ways, reactions. I don’t learn from that. By the way, I started this post because a Catholic said s/he did not believe in the Perpetual Virginity of Mary. I thought I would open it up to non-Catholics too to get their (name removed by moderator)ut as well.
Diana, you can say that you dismiss the early teachings of the Church because it happened long ago and as I like to say, anyone can Monday Morning Quarterback. However, you cannot dismiss the apparitions seen by millions or the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe that should have disintegrated many years ago.
IMHO, if people really did study Mary, they would end up being Catholic. That’s why they avoid it all together and say it doesn’t matter. We know that through her, many find Jesus, her Son. **.

Well, I don’t dismiss anything because of when it was written, lax. That would be pretty dumb, considering that the scriptures were written before any of the writings of, say…St. Jerome.

Nor do I dismiss the events discribed by many who claim to have seen Mary since then.

I simply do not think that they mean everything that is claimed for them.

 

[Rocky]

How about this one that I heard the other day .Marriage is a covenant relationship in the old testament .Was it also not sealed in blood ? on the marriage bed ? If Mary had no relations with Joseph ,was she really married ? Was the covenant consumated ?

The Church’s Sacraments come from Christ, not the Old Testament. Mary and Joseph’s marriage was a legal one in every respect, but by Church definition today it would not be considered a Sacramental one, as consummation is necessary to be joined in a Sacramental marriage by Church law.

However, in regard to an Old Testament covenantal relationship, as was stated in an earlier response, Numbers 30 provides for a woman to bind herself to the Lord in chastity, and if accepted by her father and/or husband, the vow remains valid. It is quite possible that Mary made an oath of abstinence to the Lord that was accepted by her father and Joseph. It may even have been that Joseph made a “vow to the Lord…(binding) himself under oath to a pledge of abstinence…(where he was required to) fulfill exactly the promise he…uttered.” (Numbers 30:3) This is not so far-fetched as the Church has always stated that Joseph was the “most chaste spouse” of Mary.

 

[Nicea325]

Spiritually speaking, I believe she is a perpetual virgin, that is to say that she never ‘defiled herself’ in her heart with idols or any other ungodly thing; however, physically, I don’t believe she is a perpetual virgin. The scriptures say that Joseph ‘did not know his wife until she had borne her first son.’ ‘knowing her’ was the polite way of saying they consummated the marriage. If people want to honor her as a perpetual virgin, I don’t take issue with it, but for me personally, that doesn’t seem to be what the evidence provides for.

Your misunderstanding as most Protestants lies in the term ‘until’ and it is misuage in scripture. Case in point, does not scripture say in Hebrews 1:6: But when he brings the **first-born **into the world, he says: NKJV

Does it mean God created Jesus first? Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus is the first-born of creation. And why? Because they do not understand the term first-born,thus JW’s view it as proof Jesus was created. See my point?

 

[wanner47]

It feeds into the misperception that even within married life the Catholic Church sees sex as more of a necessary evil than an uplifting union of a married man and woman.

The marriage of Mary and Joseph was an extraordinary circumstance, not an ordinary one. Ordinarily, husbands and wives are not called to lifelong mutual chastity. In extraordinary circumstances, they may be, but it’s very rare.

As to why the Church has “gone out on a limb” – why, just look how Mary has been devalued in Protestant churches. I’ve hardly seen a Protestant church that actually calls Mary blessed as is said in the Gospel of Luke ("…all generations shall call me blessed.") She’s often calling nothing but a vessel, used by God and then tossed by the wayside. It’s shameful. I grew up in the ELCA and Mary was really only ever talked about during the Christmas season, instead of held up as a role model of Christian obedience as she is in the Catholic Church. Her perpetual virginity is important because Mary is the New Eve and is also typified by the Ark of the New Covenant, all of which plays into salvation theology.

 

[wanner47]

I’m sorry, my brain is not running on all cylinders today… What part of my post are you taking issue with specifically?

see the bolded:

Spiritually speaking, I believe she is a perpetual virgin, that is to say that she never ‘defiled herself’ in her heart with idols or any other ungodly thing; however, physically, I don’t believe she is a perpetual virgin. The scriptures say that Joseph ‘did not know his wife until she had borne her first son.’ ‘knowing her’ was the polite way of saying they consummated the marriage. If people want to honor her as a perpetual virgin, I don’t take issue with it, but for me personally, that doesn’t seem to be what the evidence provides for.

 

[Barbkw]

An explanation of the word “until” from NewAdvent:

newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

"As to Mary’s virginity after her childbirth, it is not denied by St. Matthew’s expressions “before they came together” (1:18), “her firstborn son” (1:25), nor by the fact that the New Testament books repeatedly refer to the “brothers of Jesus”. [66] The words “before they came together” mean probably, “before they lived in the same house”, referring to the time when they were merely betrothed; but even if the words be understood of marital intercourse, they only state that the Incarnation took place before any such intercourse had intervened, without implying that it did occur after the Incarnation of the Son of God. [67]

The same must be said of the expression, “and he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son” (Matthew 1:25); the Evangelist tells us what did not happen before the birth of Jesus, without suggesting that it happened after his birth. [68] The name “firstborn” applies to Jesus whether his mother remained a virgin or gave birth to other children after Jesus; among the Jews it was a legal name [69], so that its occurrence in the Gospel cannot astonish us.

Finally, the “brothers of Jesus” are neither the sons of Mary, nor the brothers of Our Lord in the proper sense of the word, but they are His cousins or the more or less near relatives. [70] The Church insists that in His birth the Son of God did not lessen but consecrate the virginal integrity of His mother (Secret in Mass of Purification). The Fathers express themselves in similar language concerning this privilege of Mary. [71]"

 

[Jesness]

Your misunderstanding as most Protestants lies in the term ‘until’ and it is misuage in scripture. Case in point, does not scripture say in Hebrews 1:6: But when he brings the **first-born **into the world, he says: NKJV

Does it mean God created Jesus first? Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus is the first-born of creation. And why? Because they do not understand the term first-born,thus JW’s view it as proof Jesus was created. See my point?

There aren’t many ways to misinterpret the word ‘until,’ and the context of the sentence doesn’t support the other inflection to me. Here is the exact scripture. “But he [Joseph] had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.” Mark 1:25

In this context, it seems to imply that their, ‘lack of ‘unity,’’ stopped after Jesus was born.

wanner47: The context of the word ‘until’ is different in the scripture that you mentioned, and the one that I mentioned.

Also, I’m not trying to knock Mary or anyone’s beliefs, I am obviously subject to error, but it just doesn’t make sense to me the other way.

 

[ariel7978]

Here’s what Luther had to say about Mary as Perpetual Virgin:

“It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin…Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact.”
Works of Luther, Volume 11, 319-320; volume 6, 510.

Here’s what Calvin had to say about Mary as Perpetual Virgin:

“There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage (Matt 1:25) that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph’s obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary. He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company…And besides this Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first-born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to the precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second.”
Sermon on Matthew 1:22-25, published 1562.

Here’s what Zwingli had to say about Mary as Perpetual Virgin:

"I firmly believe that Mary, according to the words of the gospel as a pure Virgin brought forth for us the Son of God and in childbirth and after childbirth forever remained a pure, intact Virgin."
Zwingli Opera, Volume 1, 424.

 

[qui_est_ce]

There aren’t many ways to misinterpret the word ‘until,’ and the context of the sentence doesn’t support the other inflection to me. Here is the exact scripture. “But he [Joseph] had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.” Mark 1:25

In this context, it seems to imply that their, ‘lack of ‘unity,’’ stopped after Jesus was born.

wanner47: The context of the word ‘until’ is different in the scripture that you mentioned, and the one that I mentioned.

Also, I’m not trying to knock Mary or anyone’s beliefs, I am obviously subject to error, but it just doesn’t make sense to me the other way.

Here is another way to look at it:

[BIBLEDRB]2 sam 6:23[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Dokimas]

Abandoning the teaching that Mary was celibate might also undermine the case for a celibate priesthood. From what I’ve learned while being a Catholic the celibate state is considered a much more holy state than married life.

I never believed in Mary’s celibacy so I never abandoned it. As for a celibate priesthood: the Bible teaches celibacy when possible AND marriage for church leaders including bishops.

 

[Barbkw]

Another odd usage of the word “until” in Matthew:

[23] God is with us: God’s promise of deliverance to Judah in Isaiah’s time is seen by Matthew as fulfilled in the birth of Jesus, in whom God is with his people. The name Emmanuel is alluded to at the end of the gospel where the risen Jesus assures his disciples of his continued presence,". . . I am with you always, until the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

12 [25] Until she bore a son: the evangelist is concerned to emphasize that Joseph was not responsible for the conception of Jesus. The Greek word translated “until” does not imply normal marital conduct after Jesus’ birth, nor does it exclude it.

 

[dcointin]

I believe she was, yes. That is the tradition the Orthodox have inherited, and it’s consistent with her preparation as the Theotokos.

 

[Dokimas]

There aren’t many ways to misinterpret the word ‘until,’ and the context of the sentence doesn’t support the other inflection to me. Here is the exact scripture. “But he [Joseph] had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.” Mark 1:25

In this context, it seems to imply that their, ‘lack of ‘unity,’’ stopped after Jesus was born.

wanner47: The context of the word ‘until’ is different in the scripture that you mentioned, and the one that I mentioned.

Also, I’m not trying to knock Mary or anyone’s beliefs, I am obviously subject to error, but it just doesn’t make sense to me the other way.

I’m with you, Jesness.

A look in the NT at the uses of the Greek word translated ‘til’ or ‘until’ shows that many times there is obviously an change after ‘til’ as you and I think is the reality in Matthew 1:25.

 

[Catholic20064]

Hi Catholic20064 - What??!! I am not sure who you are hanging around with that you get these ideas about Church teachings? If you do not have a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is available online. (bold emphasis; mine)

CHAPTER THREE
THE SACRAMENTS AT THE SERVICE OF COMMUNION

ARTICLE 7
THE SACRAMENT OF MATRIMONY

1601 "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the **procreation **and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament."84

I. MARRIAGE IN GOD’S PLAN

1602 Sacred Scripture begins with the creation of man and woman in the image and likeness of God and concludes with a vision of "the wedding-feast of the Lamb."85 Scripture speaks throughout of marriage and its “mystery,” its institution and the meaning God has given it, its origin and its end, its various realizations throughout the history of salvation, the difficulties arising from sin and its renewal “in the Lord” in the New Covenant of Christ and the Church.86

Marriage in the order of creation

1603 "The **intimate **community of life and love which constitutes the married state has been established by the Creator and endowed by him with its own proper laws. . . . God himself is the author of marriage."87 The vocation to marriage is written in the very nature of man and woman as they came from the hand of the Creator. Marriage is not a purely human institution despite the many variations it may have undergone through the centuries in different cultures, social structures, and spiritual attitudes. These differences should not cause us to forget its common and permanent characteristics. Although the dignity of this institution is not transparent everywhere with the same clarity,88 some sense of the greatness of the matrimonial union exists in all cultures. "The well-being of the individual person and of both human and Christian society is closely bound up with the **healthy state of conjugal **and family life."89

1604 God who created man out of love also calls him to love the fundamental and innate vocation of every human being. For man is created in the image and likeness of God who is himself love.90 Since God created him man and woman, their mutual love becomes an image of the absolute and unfailing love with which God loves man. It is good, very good, in the Creator’s eyes. And this love which God blesses is intended to be **fruitful **and to be realized in the common work of watching over creation: "And God blessed them, and God said to them: 'Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it.’"91

1605 Holy Scripture affirms that man and woman were created for one another: "It is not good that the man should be alone."92 The woman, “flesh of his flesh,” his equal, his nearest in all things, is given to him by God as a “helpmate”; she thus represents God from whom comes our help.93 "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."94 The Lord himself shows that this signifies an unbreakable union of their two lives by recalling what the plan of the Creator had been “in the beginning”: "So they are no longer two, but one flesh."95

I. “MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM . . .”

2331 "God is love and in himself he lives a mystery of personal loving communion. Creating the human race in his own image . . … God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, and thus the capacity and responsibility, of love and communion."114

“God created man in his own image . . . male and female he created them”;115 He blessed them and said, “**Be fruitful **and multiply”;116 "When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created."117

2332 **Sexuality **affects all aspects of the human person in the unity of his body and soul. It especially concerns affectivity, the capacity to love and to procreate, and in a more general way the aptitude for forming bonds of communion with others.

2333 Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.

2334 "In creating men ‘male and female,’ God gives man and woman an equal personal dignity."118 "Man is a person, man and woman equally so, since both were created in the image and likeness of the personal God."119

2335 Each of the two sexes is an image of the power and tenderness of God, with equal dignity though in a different way. The union of man and woman in marriage is a way of imitating in the flesh the Creator’s generosity and fecundity: "Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh."120 All human generations proceed from this union.121

Please note that I said misperception. In other words what non-Catholics believe about the Catholic Church’s teaching regarding sex in marriage is incorrect as you noted with your quotes above. The teaching on Mary’s perpetual virginity makes non-Catholics believe incorrectly that Catholics believe sex within marriage is somehow less than honorable. They are wrong in what they think of course.