Catholics and Non-Catholics: Do you believe in the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother?

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Thank you elvis for proving two points
  • my challenge cannot be, well ‘challenged’ using UNTIL
  • you’ve convinced me that heos was incorrectly translated for Matt 1:25. While your four examples still leave her PV in doubt, much less is implied vs ‘until’
Todd -
**READ post #529, where I smashed your arguments regarding “heos/until”. As for your “challenge” - it is baseless. When we present scripture verses like
**2 Samuel 6:2, Psalm 110:1, ****Matt 22:44, Acts 2:34-35 **- you say that those are “weak” examples. Scriptural corroboration is WEAK?
That is a claim that can only be the last cry of the truly desperate.
**
You have been shown by me and others - ad nauseam - that you are just plain wrong about your limitations on the words heos AND until. Your problem is that you just don’t know when you’ve been beaten . . . :rolleyes:
 
Since Mary produced the head of the elect, Jesus Christ, she must also produce the
members of that head, that is, “all true Christians”. A mother does not conceive a head without members, nor members without a head. If anyone, then, wishes to become a member of Jesus Christ, and consequently be filled with grace and truth , he must be formed in Mary through the grace of Jesus Christ, which she possesses with a fullness enabling her to communicate it abundantly to true members of Jesus Christ, “her true children”.

The Holy Spirit espoused Mary and produced his greatest work, the incarnate Word, in her, by her and through her. He has never disowned her and so he continues to produce every day, in a mysterious but very real manner, the souls of the elect in her and through her.

Mary received from God a unique dominion over souls enabling her to nourish them and make them more and more godlike. St Augustine went so far as to say that even in this world all the elect are enclosed in the womb of Mary, and that their real birthday is when this good mother brings them forth to eternal life. Consequently, just as an infant draws all its nourishment from its mother, who gives according to its needs, so the elect draw their spiritual nourishment and all their strength from Mary.

It was to Mary that God the Father said, “Dwell in Jacob”, that is, dwell in my elect who are typified by Jacob. It was to Mary that God the Son said, “My dear Mother, your inheritance is in Israel”, that is, in the elect. It was to Mary that the Holy Spirit said, “Place your roots in my elect”. Whoever, then, is of the chosen and predestinate will have the Blessed Virgin living within him, and he will let her plant in his very soul the roots of every virtue, but especially deep humility and ardent charity.

Mary is called by St Augustine, and is indeed, the “living mould of God” . In her alone the God-man was formed in his human nature without losing any feature of the Godhead. In her alone, by the grace of Jesus Christ, man is made godlike as far as human nature is capable of it. A sculptor can make a statue or a life-like model in two ways:
1] By using his skill, strength, experience and good tools to produce a statue out of hard, shapeless matter;
2] By making a cast of it in a mould. The first way is long and involved and open to all sorts of accidents. It only needs a faulty stroke of the chisel or hammer to ruin the whole work. The second is quick, easy, straightforward, almost effortless and inexpensive, but the mould must be perfect and true to life and the material must be easy to handle and offer no resistance.

Mary is the great mould of God, fashioned by the Holy Spirit to give human nature to a Man who is God by the hypostatic union, and to fashion through grace men who are like to God. No godly feature is missing from this mould. Everyone who casts himself into it and allows himself to be moulded will acquire every feature of Jesus Christ, true God, with little pain or effort, as befits his weak human condition. He will take on a faithful likeness to Jesus with no possibility of distortion, for the devil has never had and never will have any access to Mary, the holy and immaculate Virgin, in whom there is not the least suspicion of a stain of sin.

Dear friend, what a difference there is between a soul brought up in the ordinary way to resemble Jesus Christ by people who, like sculptors, rely on their own skill and industry, and a soul thoroughly tractable, entirely detached, most ready to be moulded in her by the working of the Holy Spirit. What blemishes and defects, what shadows and distortions, what natural and human imperfections are found in the first soul, and what a faithful and divine likeness to Jesus is found in the second!

There is not and there will never be, either in God’s creation or in his mind, a creature in whom he is so honoured as in the most Blessed Virgin Mary, not excepting even the saints, the cherubim or the highest seraphim in heaven. Mary is God’s garden of Paradise, his own unspeakable world, into which his Son entered to do wonderful things, to tend it and to take his delight in it. He created a world for the wayfarer, that is, the one we are living in. He created a second world - Paradise - for the Blessed. He created a third for himself, which he named Mary. She is a world unknown to most mortals here on earth. Even the angels and saints in heaven find her incomprehensible, and are lost in admiration of a God who is so exalted and so far above them, so distant from them, and so enclosed in Mary, his chosen world, that they exclaim: “Holy, holy, holy” unceasingly.

St Jerome even contended that not only did Mary remain perpetual Virgin, But St Joseph also managed to achieve this accomplishment. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. God chose Mary to come to us in the new testament, he in return expects us to come to him through Mary.

Did Mose’s and others find God in the OT without going through Mary? Of course they did. What does that have to do with the New Testament.

Virginity was common among women and also men of Hebrew background in the Bible period. How would Mary who is FULL OF GRACE not remain consecrated to GOD? Nobody achieved the status with GOD that Mary has in the Bible or today.

Until MANKIND grasps this TRUTH. We have a MAJOR problem. Just look at the world today. If the Catholic Church fails? ALL CHRISTOLOGY FAILS. The only solution is to unite Christology. Denomination means to DIVIDE. Thats from SATAN. not GOD.

In the end the Immaculate Heart will triumph, but look at the cost of Souls if we can’t put this faith together. We talk, plead, beg, pray, and anything we can to get ALL to grasp this. There is no other way to stop offending GOD. Mary is the one holding back the hand of GOD …RIGHT NOW from the chastisement. And she said, if man doesn’t stop sinning and offending GOD, I will be forced to let go of my Sons Hand.
 
Whats the point of contention that you can make it to Heaven without going to Mary? Or that Mary isn’t perpetual Virgin?

This divides Christianity. We need to UNITE all Christology. Satan is so strong today, Sin is so prevalent, the war of Good and evil is so accute right now, we have no choice. We are losing thousands of souls daily just through abortion.

Any debate which takes us farther from unity is the work of evil. And doesn’t help our purpose on earth. Look at the life of Christ in the Bible. Thats what need to strive to mimick. Regardless of how difficult, how many times we fall short or fail. We have no other choice. I fail to see it.

The Eastern Orthodox Chuch and Rome is going to unite. I believe this will happen through need before 2011 ends. Definatly. They meet monthly now. Read about what the elect of both churchs said in the last meeting? They are sister churchs in history. Christology is going to unite, theres is no other choice, and were fresh out of time to ponder petty differences.

The sooner we come together as children of God, the better off mankind is going to be. Its just that simple.
 
I know there are scriptural passages that can lead one to believe that Mary and Joseph had other childen as husband and wife.
There are references that point to her Perpetual Virginity as well.
  1. Numbers 30 shows that a vow of abstinence, even in marriage, was not unheard of in the Old Testament.
  2. St. Jerome argued for the well-known and commonly held belief in Mary’s virginity in St. Jerome’s “The Perpetual Virginity of Blessed Mary” vs Heluidius (380 A.D.)
  3. Church approved apparitions always speak of Mary as the Virgin (for example, the Virgin of Guadalupe).
What do you think?
Yes, I believe in the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Mother.
 
Todd -
READ post #529, where I smashed your arguments regarding “heos/until”. As for your “challenge” - it is baseless. When we present scripture verses like
**2 Samuel 6:2, Psalm 110:1, ****Matt 22:44, Acts 2:34-35 **- you say that those are “weak” examples. Scriptural corroboration is WEAK?
That is a claim that can only be the last cry of the truly desperate.

You have been shown by me and others - ad nauseam - that you are just plain wrong about your limitations on the words heos AND until. Your problem is that you just don’t know when you’ve been beaten . . . :rolleyes:
Dang, you don’t seem to be listening so here it goes again.

Your post 529 clearly states HEOS can be translated to: while; even to the point; since; still; until. I don’t question you knowledge of Greek These are your alternate translations of heos that clearly change the meaning of a sentence in english

I stated that you proved Matt 1:25 was translated poorly BECAUSE the official translation using ‘until’ has a very specific implication, that Joseph ‘knew’ Mary after the birth of Jesus. The alternative translations you suggested would not have specificly implied the same meaning, that he ‘knew’ Mary!
I don’t know why they chose UNTIL but I’m with you that it was a poor choice of english words to convey the meaning of perpetual virginity

Now one question, since we agree divine inspiration led to Matt 1:25, to clearly state Jesus had a virgin birth.

If perpetual virginity was true and important, why wasn’t it clearly stated in scripture?
“Joseph did not know mary until the end of her days” would have solved all our problems here.
 
Now one question, since we agree divine inspiration led to Matt 1:25, to clearly state Jesus had a virgin birth.

If perpetual virginity was true and important, why wasn’t it clearly stated in scripture?
“Joseph did not know mary until the end of her days” would have solved all our problems here.
But scripture does in Luke. Any Jew during this time would have read from Mary’s response her virginity and her continued virginity. 🤷

It just doen’t make since to Mormons and New Age Protestants I guess.
 
Had her days ended when Matthew wrote it?
I’m pretty certain Joseph’s time on earth had passed. 😊

Regardless, Matthew could have used an event well past the birth of Christ if he wanted to express Mary’s virginity was still intact at the time of writing.
 
But scripture does in Luke. Any Jew during this time would have read from Mary’s response her virginity and her continued virginity. 🤷

It just doen’t make since to Mormons and New Age Protestants I guess.
ERose, I read Luke as stating she was still a virgin when the Angel visited: “How shall this be done, because I know not man?”

I would agree with you if the scripture was explicit, like:
  • How shall this be done, because I cannot know man?
  • How shall this be done, because I will never know man?
  • How shall this be done, because I must not know man?
 
Now one question, since we agree divine inspiration led to Matt 1:25, to clearly state Jesus had a virgin birth.

If perpetual virginity was true and important, why wasn’t it clearly stated in scripture?
“Joseph did not know mary until the end of her days” would have solved all our problems here.
I’m pretty certain Joseph’s time on earth had passed. 😊

Regardless, Matthew could have used an event well past the birth of Christ** if **he wanted to express Mary’s virginity was still intact at the time of writing.
IF is all you have?
 
ERose, I read Luke as stating she was still a virgin when the Angel visited: “How shall this be done, because I know not man?”

I would agree with you if the scripture was explicit, like:
  • How shall this be done, because I cannot know man?
  • How shall this be done, because I will never know man?
  • How shall this be done, because I must not know man?
What was the purpose of Mary’s question in Mormon theology?
 
What was the purpose of Mary’s question in Mormon theology?
I don’t know the ‘official LDS’ position on this scripture, I’ve only been speaking for myself.
For me, Luke is a bit vague so I cannot read ‘perpetual virgin’ from the scripture.

To be clear,
  • I have seen no scripture or argument that indicate 100% she was not a perpetual virgin.
  • I have seen scripture and cultural arguments that make it unlikely she was a perpetual virgin.
  • If I was a practicing Catholic and believed in Fatima and other visitations, I would have the justification I needed for Perpetual Virginity.
 
What was the purpose of Mary’s question in your opinion?
Stephen, I already told you that I was unclear on any meaning beyond Mary stating she was currently a virgin.
I know it’s untidy but when the meaning is not clear to me, I refuse to make one up.

I would be curous about alternate translations of the Greek, in case they signify a more permanent state of virginity.
 
Stephen, I already told you that I was unclear on any meaning beyond Mary stating she was currently a virgin.
I know it’s untidy but when the meaning is not clear to me, I refuse to make one up.
You have done some IF’ing in the past, why stop now. A woman on the eve of her wedding or very newly married is told she will have a child. A woman expecting a normal marriage would have said something like “duh.” Why would she have to ask how this could happen because she does not know man?
 
I don’t know the ‘official LDS’ position on this scripture, I’ve only been speaking for myself.
For me, Luke is a bit vague so I cannot read ‘perpetual virgin’ from the scripture.

To be clear,
  • I have seen no scripture or argument that indicate 100% she was not a perpetual virgin.
  • I have seen scripture and cultural arguments that make it unlikely she was a perpetual virgin.
  • If I was a practicing Catholic and believed in Fatima and other visitations, I would have the justification I needed for Perpetual Virginity.
This is the thing that I have seen. Mormons and new age Protestants do not have the foundation to properly interpret scripture as it has been evidenced by the “I just don’t know” answers that we keep getting and the “You have to prove your position because we cannot defend ours” responses.

This should at least make you at least question your foundation. Which you have shown to us is very weak.
 
I stated that you proved Matt 1:25 was translated poorly BECAUSE the official translation using ‘until’ has a very specific implication, that Joseph ‘knew’ Mary .

No sir this is using the English poorly. We have standard definitions. You are using a made up definition. Until only denotes a period of time up to a point not after. You never address this. I have **challenged **you to provide a reliable dictionary that supports your claim. You cannot so you resort to your own definition. Sorry your definition is incorrect and is not the meaning of until. Elvis has provided the Greek which does not contradict the English definition. Elvis gave you the meanings but he did not say that each meaning applied to the scripture used. Matthew was not intending to say anything about what happened after Jesus’ birth. It does not prove one way or another Mary’s virginity. I don’t think anyone here is saying that it does. Mary is the one who says it in Luke.
 
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