Catholics and Orthodox, how do you know you've arrived at the True Church?

  • Thread starter Thread starter spoiltvictorian
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

spoiltvictorian

Guest
As I move toward what I now believe to be my unavoidable goal, the Catholic Church (because I am an Occidental), I am wondering how I will know I have arrived at the True Church. As I pass through lesser churches I meet people who think they have arrived at the True Church, and some of them came from where I am going. I’m aware of the spiral of history/reason/Christ/Church/Scripture, but Lutherans, anyway, share so much combined history that it applies to us as well.

So how do you know you should not keep looking? And how do you trust Christ’s Church to proclaim the gospel faithfully and to be right when you are wrong and also test it for truth?
 
Honestly, for me it is less about trust in the Church and more about history and Scriptures. No other group has lasted this long. Jesus said that he would be with us always until the end of time, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against his Church.

I stand here and look back, and I see hell doing its best, at times really getting close, yet Mother Church remains.

I doubt that helps, but it is what I see as a Catholic.
 
Where Christ is, there is the Church. Where the Church is, there is Christ.
 
So how do you know you should not keep looking? And how do you trust Christ’s Church to proclaim the gospel faithfully and to be right when you are wrong and also test it for truth?
The Catholic Church can trace all the popes back to Peter. I’m actually looking at the list right now which is included for whatever reason in my bible.

The fact that this church is the same church that the apostles founded is what makes me realize this is the “true church.” Because only a church that is almost 2000 years old can interpret a book that is almost 2000 years old. Which makes me wonder why Protestants think so badly of Catholics’ outlook on the Bible. The church is a means, and perhaps practice,of interpreting the Bible.

I hope that answers your question from my point of view.
 
All answers help! Except for Eucharisted’s. Is that what you tell yourself? Or do you mean you see Christ and therefore you know you are in the True Church?
 
Both are One Church in a schism.
Tho technically, as much as the East would love to deny the Chair and power of Peter, they have to at least go so far as say first among equals…

BUT I have to be honest - i cannot find that phrase anywhere in the first Church.

Here is some stuff i chewed on. Under the Church’s law - no one but the Roman Pope can excommunicate a Bishop. Which is why the East held councils and had the Pope agree to an excommunication…but couldn’t do so themsleves…

Which brings me to this point - as already mentioned there had to be a council. A council had to be held in the Bishops jurisdiction…well before there was even an issue, Michael Celereaus [sp] closed Roman Churches without an authority to do so and crossed the Pope off the list of Patriarchs, which without a council is very illegal [theologically speaking]

The legates of Rome [of the Pope] excommunicated ONE single Bishop - which is the right of Rome - read the history and read all the councils…read all the Church fathers both East and West…
and so the other Eastern Patriarchs agreed to remain with the Bishop who was excommunicated.
SO basically - altho technically only considered schismed this set up the stage for protestantism. By weakening the jurisdiction of Peter - the East brought about an entire new game of relativism and protesting against the Pope.

Needless to say however; a few things ppl tend to forget. The first of which is Michael didnt have the right to do anything without a council. The Pope himself didnt do anything, and anytime a group of Patriarchs follow an excommunicated Bishop of the Church - makes them automatically excommunicated.

Michael excommunicated [from his end] an entire Rite of the Church so how does that work?
The Pope wasnt removed based on theology - the entire West was removed which for all intents and purposes isnt possible to do.

And lastly - the filioque was the least of the issue of the Nicea Council - because the Council said a number of things that the East stepped on…**

My sig sums up what I think anyway.
 
Do you need all the quotes from the fathers in the Church showing the importance of Peter and his successors?
 
As I move toward what I now believe to be my unavoidable goal, the Catholic Church (because I am an Occidental), I am wondering how I will know I have arrived at the True Church. As I pass through lesser churches I meet people who think they have arrived at the True Church, and some of them came from where I am going. I’m aware of the spiral of history/reason/Christ/Church/Scripture, but Lutherans, anyway, share so much combined history that it applies to us as well.

So how do you know you should not keep looking? And how do you trust Christ’s Church to proclaim the gospel faithfully and to be right when you are wrong and also test it for truth?
I believe that once you have decided that Christ was God–the second person of the Trinity and have searched out the church He founded. And once you trust that the Catholic Church is infallible, then you will stop looking and start deepening your knowledge of what she teaches.
 
Now for how the East shouldnt point fingers…
This is information a friend from somewhere else, has found.

**QUOTE **

Session 6 of the Council of Ephesus (431 A.D.) declared that:

“No one must produce or compose any other creed than (para, proeter, “beyond” - “contrary to”?) the Nicene’ … and …'Anyone who should propose any such to pagans, Jews, or heretics, who wished to be converted, should be deposed if a bishop or cleric, or anathematized if a layman.”

The Eastern Orthodox take this decree very seriously - in a legalistic sense. Given that they recognize no authority greater than an Ecumenical Council, and given that they do not recognize the Pope’s authority to override such canonical laws, they see Filioque as a direct violation of what Ephesus taught; and, in doing this, they of course fail to consider the context of Ephesus’ teaching, which was directed to its own day and age, with the intention of preserving the dogmatic nature of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, and not to re-open the question of a Creed every time there is an Ecumenical Council.

Now…in response to this, we Catholics of course cite the fact that **Christ gave the Church, and the Pope in particular, the authority to BOTH “bind” AND “loosen,” and so what was “bound” by Ephesus may, according to Apostolic belief, be “loosen” later on **…if, as in a case like this, it is merely a canonical measure and not a matter of dogmatic truth. And, if the EO’s wish to be honest, they themselves have violated the canonical decrees of Ecumenical Councils quite often throughout their history.

For example: Canons 6 & 7 of the Council of Nicaea itself read:

CANON 6:

“Let the ancient customs in Egypt, Libya, and Pentapolis prevail that the Bishop of Alexandria has jurisdiction in all these, since that is the custom of the Bishop of Rome. Likewise, in Antioch and the other provinces, *let the churches retain their privileges.”

CANON 7:

”Since custom and ancient Tradition have obtained that the Bishop of Aelia (i.e., Jerusalem) be honored, let him have the succession of honor, *saving however the domestic right of the metropolis" Caesarea].”

Now…please notice how, in Canon 7 above, it says how the Bishop of Jerusalem (known at the time as “Aelia”), unlike the bishops of Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch (the three Petrine patriarchs) is NOT to be a metropolitan or a patriarch, but merely has a "succession of honor."

Rather, the see of Caesarea Maritima (“Caesarea by the Sea”) should continue to be metropolitan OVER Jerusalem …which was the case since the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

And, according to Nicaea, this status quo should remain in place. Indeed, as it says in Canon 6, all the churches (that is, the patriarchates and metropolitanates) should "retain their privileges."

** But if, as with the decree of the Council of Ephesus which forbade any additions to the Creed, this teaching of Nicaea must be taken seriously and be held in force for all time … Why, then, did the Council of Chalcedon (in 451) violate Canons 6 & 7 of Nicaea by proclaming Jerusalem to be a patriarchal see unto itself, thereby violating the Traditional privileges of both Caesarea (as Jerusalem’s metropolitan) AND Antioch (as Jerusalem’s patriarchate)?

Why did this same Council of Chalcedon also try to make Constantinople into a patriarchate (it wasn’t one before), and to give it primacy in the East, thereby unseating Alexandria as the Traditional “Second See” (after Rome) and primate in the East? Doesn’t this too violate Canon 6 of Nicaea?
What’s more, why did the Council of Ephesus itself - the very Council which declared that we could not make amendments to the Creed - violate Canon 6 of Nicaea by taking the island diocese of Cyprus away from the patriarchate of Antioch (which had jurisdiction over Cyprus since Apostolic times: Acts 13:1-4; Acts 15:36-39), making it a self-governing (“autocephalus”) diocese instead.

Eastern Orthodox have no answer for any of this. Rather, they can only criticize when Rome appears to violate the canons of Ecumenical Councils.

When their own Byzantine traditions do so, then “obedience to counciliar authority” is suddenly not so important. For, in Eastern Orthodoxy, Jerusalem and Constantinople are still patriarchs to this day.
Constantinople (not Alexandria) is still primate among them. …And Cyprus is still an autocephalus church, independent of any Orthodox patriarch. …And ALL THIS is inviolation of Canons 6 & 7 of Nicaea.

So, the simple question for an Eastern Orthodox who objects to Filioque on canonical grounds is: Why does Rome have to adhere to the strict letter of the Ecumenical canons when they do not?

/QUOTE
 
So how do you know you should not keep looking? And how do you trust Christ’s Church to proclaim the gospel faithfully and to be right when you are wrong and also test it for truth?
Any time I experience any kind of doubt, I go and kneel before the Tabernacle. Right away, I know I’m home. 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top