Catholics and Protestants: Let's us deal with each other on our own terms

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elvisman said:
Sure - but what do you mean by “believe”.
You see, friend - The Bible says that those who believe in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life - but it doesn’t stop there.

It ALSO says that we must be Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Pet. 3:21).
Pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23).
Do the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).
Obey his commandments (John 15:10).
Suffer with christ (Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Pet. 2:19-21, 4:1-2).

In other words - TOTAL SUBMISSION.

You see, friend - believing is only the beginning. It is the initial grace we receive from God on our journey to salvation.
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Do not forget ,“you must be born again”, You must eat my flesh…You must “know” Him, your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, you must be like a little child,…Still, we are to believe on Him,then we have eternal life .That is the beginning and end, else we would boast of works.I do , at the same time, agree that faith is the beginning, and after we are justified (saved) , we then are sanctified (show good works by his grace).I do not believe" believing" or being justified rests upon anything we do.Unless you further clarify ,you make it seem like there are things we must do to be justified (have saving faith), which resembles most other religions then.
 
david_ruiz said:
Do not forget ,“you must be born again”, You must eat my flesh…You must “know” Him, your righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, you must be like a little child,…Still, we are to believe on Him,then we have eternal life .That is the beginning and end, else we would boast of works.I do , at the same time, agree that faith is the beginning, and after we are justified (saved) , we then are sanctified (show good works by his grace).I do not believe" believing" or being justified rests upon anything we do.Unless you further clarify ,you make it seem like there are things we must do to be justified (have saving faith), which resembles most other religions then.
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Faith is the beginning - that’s true - and it is a grace from God. But, I’ll even go further than that. Believing the beginning, middle AND the end.

We must remain faithful if we want eternal life - not simply “believe”. Remember - even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). If you simply “believe” then you are no better than them.

**No, the Scriptures tell us that we must cooperate (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1) with God’s initial grace to believe. The Greek word used here us "sunergeo", which means to work with or cooperate. The Scriptures also tell us that we CAN refuse or reject (**Matthew 23:3, Luke 13:34) that grace.

*Remember – the Bible tells us that Salvation is a process.
Initial Salvation – God give us the ***initial grace to believe **(**Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
Already saved
Ongoing Sanctification*** – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we ***cooperate with his grace (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
Being saved
Final Sanctification/Salvation*** – we die and go to heaven having *endured to the end (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Will be saved
This is why I asked the poster to clarify what he meant by John 3:16 being a common belief. Yes, we ALL believe it, but many believe that it stops there. It doesn’t . . .
 
elvisman said:
Faith is the beginning - that’s true - and it is a grace from God. But, I’ll even go further than that. Believing the beginning, middle AND the end.

We must remain faithful if we want eternal life - not simply “believe”. Remember - even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). If you simply “believe” then you are no better than them.

No, the Scriptures tell us that we must cooperate (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1) with God’s initial grace to believe. The Greek word used here us "sunergeo", which means to work with or cooperate. The Scriptures also tell us that we CAN refuse or reject (**Matthew 23:3, **Luke 13:34) that grace.

*Remember – the Bible tells us that Salvation is a process.
Initial Salvation – God give us the ***initial grace to believe **(**Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
Already saved
Ongoing Sanctification*** – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we ***cooperate with his grace (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
Being saved
Final Sanctification/Salvation*** – we die and go to heaven having *endured to the end (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Will be saved
This is why I asked the poster to clarify what he meant by John 3:16 being a common belief. Yes, we ALL believe it, but many believe that it stops there. It doesn’t . . .
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I misspoke. 5 and 8 are redundant. I agree with elvisman. John 3:16 isn’t all of it. It is common ground, but I don’t believe it stops there. Over-zealous on my part and it was not meant to stir a separate argument.

What it does, however, point out is that no matter how many common beliefs we have we’ll still come to a dead stop on common beliefs and bicker about them. Instead of adding to the list , we’re hung up on a period at the end of a sentence, when in fact John himself expounded on 16 with 17-20, explicitly *20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. * “belief” alone doesn’t bring us into the light unless belief is something greater than a simple acknowledgment.

I suggest we find more common ground or take this conversation to another thread.

Again, my apologies to the OP for inadvertently derailing an otherwise awesome post. 😦
 
Chris_Etzel said:
I misspoke. 5 and 8 are redundant. I agree with elvisman. John 3:16 isn’t all of it. It is common ground, but I don’t believe it stops there. Over-zealous on my part and it was not meant to stir a separate argument.

What it does, however, point out is that no matter how many common beliefs we have we’ll still come to a dead stop on common beliefs and bicker about them. Instead of adding to the list , we’re hung up on a period at the end of a sentence, when in fact John himself expounded on 16 with 17-20, explicitly 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God. “belief” alone doesn’t bring us into the light unless belief is something greater than a simple acknowledgment.

I suggest we find more common ground or take this conversation to another thread.

Again, my apologies to the OP for inadvertently derailing an otherwise awesome post. 😦
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**I don’t think you derailed the thread at all. **
**I just asked for a point to be clarified and you responded charitably. **

**If we’re going to make a list of common beliefs, we can’t simply pretend that we agree on points where we actually have some different thought.
John 3:16 - *as with all the Scriptures *- is the written Word of God. How it is interpreted by different people is where the meaning of it falls off track.

Thanks for your response. 🙂
 
True enough, and I was inaccurate as well since it was only fundamentalists I reffered to. 😦
 
elvisman said:
Faith is the beginning - that’s true - and it is a grace from God. But, I’ll even go further than that. Believing the beginning, middle AND the end.

We must remain faithful if we want eternal life - not simply “believe”. Remember - even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). If you simply “believe” then you are no better than them.

No, the Scriptures tell us that we must cooperate (1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1) with God’s initial grace to believe. The Greek word used here us "sunergeo", which means to work with or cooperate. The Scriptures also tell us that we CAN refuse or reject (**Matthew 23:3, **Luke 13:34) that grace.

*Remember – the Bible tells us that Salvation is a process.
Initial Salvation – God give us the ***initial grace to believe **(**Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8)
Already saved
Ongoing Sanctification*** – God is sanctifying us throughout our life as we ***cooperate with his grace (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
Being saved
Final Sanctification/Salvation*** – we die and go to heaven having *endured to the end (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Will be saved
This is why I asked the poster to clarify what he meant by John 3:16 being a common belief. Yes, we ALL believe it, but many believe that it stops there. It doesn’t . . .
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Yes there are three phases or tenses to being saved ,but John 3:16 covers them all .The question is not on what "believe " is but what salvation is .And no matter what phase of salvation you talk about ,it is faith in Christ’s work that is the key. Christ justifies (initial savlvation),sanctifies us(ongoing) ,and finally glorifies us with himself at the end .Hence “believe on Him and be saved” of John 3:16 .Can we agree on that ?
 
Dymphna82 said:
Had this exact argument with my boyfriend yesterday, who’s Born Again. Mind you, I spent well over a decade as a Pagan and was only coming back to the church the past few weeks. I went to mass yesterday and confession, where I was absolved of all my sins.

I come home, talk to him online and he’s all, “lol, how many Hail Maries do you have to do?” and we later got into an argument about 1 Timothy 2:5 and other stuff that, as someone just relearning, am not fit to argue against.

I felt frustrated and angry. And I felt like, well, there’s really not much of a future for us, is there?

Only solution I have right now is that I’ve had him promise not to bring it up again. He’s going to continue believing what he does regardless, but I don’t have to hear about that.

From my perspective, I feel that God is the one who knows for certain. If the Catholic church is, after all of the years, wrong, then he’ll sort it out. If not, then he’ll sort it out. Beyond that, I just feel like it’s a never ending contest of who loves Jesus more.
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just a friendly word of advice. date within your own faith. if your already having these kind of arguments, they are only going to get worse. trust me, i know…and neither he nor you will “not be able to bring it up.” faith is an intrigal part of the individual. it is part of who you are. if you cannot discuss matters of faith with someone you love. that is a serious issue, with long term ramifications.i thank God you have returned to the Church. im a convert from protestantism as well. i was in a similar situation years ago. but i was the protestant and she was the Catholic. we dated a couple of times, but i could not get over the fact she was a “Mary worshiping pagan.” wish i knew then what i know now. she was cute! sigh… live and learn i guess.😉 i will pray for you and your boyfriend. Peace to both of you. :signofcross:
 
david_ruiz said:
Yes there are three phases or tenses to being saved ,but John 3:16 covers them all .The question is not on what "believe " is but what salvation is .And no matter what phase of salvation you talk about ,it is faith in Christ’s work that is the key. Christ justifies (initial savlvation),sanctifies us(ongoing) ,and finally glorifies us with himself at the end .Hence “believe on Him and be saved” of John 3:16 .Can we agree on that ?
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Sure - as long as we understand that salvation is a lifelong process - not a one-time event. Also, that nobody is guaranteed heaven unless they remain faithful to the end (Matthew 24:13).
 
david_ruiz said:
Yes there are three phases or tenses to being saved ,but John 3:16 covers them all .The question is not on what "believe " is but what salvation is .And no matter what phase of salvation you talk about ,it is faith in Christ’s work that is the key. Christ justifies (initial savlvation),sanctifies us(ongoing) ,and finally glorifies us with himself at the end .Hence “believe on Him and be saved” of John 3:16 .Can we agree on that ?
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Something happened to my computer before I had a chance to finish – so here is the rest of what I was going to say:

**Salvation is something that can be lost by the will of the person. Jesus assures us of his protection in John 10:28 – but that does not mean that we ourselves cannot flee from his protection, as the following passages *also *assure us: **Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22.
**Another perfect example of this is the parable of the Prodigal Son. He was given everything by his father, yet HE chose to separate himself from him and chose a life of sin rather than obedience to the father.

WE must remain steadfast with the grace God gives us. His grace is a gift and it can either be accepted or rejected – otherwise it is not a true gift.
 
Hi ,

I see that some things have been added to the list, that’s wonderful! Praise God! Maybe another thing we can add that’s evident just by the nature of this thread, is that most of us desire Christian unity, a fellowship of brotherly love in Christ our Savior!
 
pipper said:
True enough, and I was inaccurate as well since it was only fundamentalists I reffered to. 😦
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Hi Pipper,

That’s the great thing about Christians coming together and talking about their shared beliefs in a respectful way. I think finding our common ground, built on Jesus Christ, gives us a foundation that we can build on together. Sure we’re going to run into a lot of problems when we start aurguing about our differences, but that can be held for another thread for people who like arguing.🙂
 
elvisman said:
Sure - but what do you mean by “believe”.
You see, friend - The Bible says that those who believe in Jesus will not perish but have everlasting life - but it doesn’t stop there.

It ALSO says that we must be Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Pet. 3:21).
Pick up our crosses daily and follow Christ (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23).
Do the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21).
Obey his commandments (John 15:10).
Suffer with christ (Matt. 10:38, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Pet. 2:19-21, 4:1-2).

In other words - TOTAL SUBMISSION.

You see, friend - believing is only the beginning. It is the initial grace we receive from God on our journey to salvation.
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Did anyone quantify it as stopping there? Or is it just something that we all agree on? You are adding definition to something that at this point doesn’t need any more refining.

I think some of the things that you brought up in this post are important items, maybe they should be added to the list, maybe they are not things that we all agree on, but that is why we have discussions.
 
We’ve got a great list started. Let me try to list all the things we’ve added so far.
  1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.
  2. We believe that Jesus was sinless.
  3. We believe that Jesus was born from a virgin named Mary.
  4. We believe that Jesus lived, was crucified and died, and was resurrected.
  5. We believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God, without error.
  6. We believe in the power of Prayer
  7. We believe in eternal life with God
  8. We all believe John 3:16
  9. We believe in the sainthood of believers.
  10. We believe in the Trinity.
    11.We believe that Jesus is also God the Son, second person of the Holy Trinity.
    12.We believe that God is the creator of all things.
    13.We believe in the forgiveness of sins.
    14.We beieve faith is a gift from God.
    15.We believe in the need for regeneration, to be born again.
    16.We believe that Jesus is God and Mary was his Mother.
    17.We believe that we must persevere.
    18.We believe in the importance of Christian unity, the fellowship of believers.
The list is looking great! Brothers and Sisters let’s keep adding to the list!
 
How about “We believe that we honor God through the fruits of the Spirit”?
 
Mikeoffaith said:
Did anyone quantify it as stopping there? Or is it just something that we all agree on? You are adding definition to something that at this point doesn’t need any more refining.

I think some of the things that you brought up in this post are important items, maybe they should be added to the list, maybe they are not things that we all agree on, but that is why we have discussions.
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I was responding to Rev Kevin’s question, which was:
"Do you believe that God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son?***
***That all who believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life? Is this the part you are having trouble with?"
I then went on to list many other things which the Bible says are required in order to be save. It’s all about obedience - not simply believing.****
The Grace to believe is the initial grace of Salvation. However, we MUST remain faithful to that grace by our obedience.
James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe and tremble - but they aren’t faithful believers, now are they?
 
Hi all! Is the Eucharist(sp?) the taking of the bread and wine as Christ’s body and blood? If that is what you mean, then as far as I know, we all agree. At least I do. Love this thread! My little boy says to add that “We all love God”. He’s 7. 😃
 
Jeninky said:
Hi all! Is the Eucharist(sp?) the taking of the bread and wine as Christ’s body and blood? If that is what you mean, then as far as I know, we all agree. At least I do. Love this thread! My little boy says to add that “We all love God”. He’s 7. 😃
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Only if you believe that it actually becomes his Body & Blood Soul and Divinity like the Catholic Church does.
 
Jeninky said:
Hi all! Is the Eucharist(sp?) the taking of the bread and wine as Christ’s body and blood? If that is what you mean, then as far as I know, we all agree. At least I do. Love this thread! My little boy says to add that “We all love God”. He’s 7. 😃
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“We all love God”, how beautiful is that one, I be sure to add it to the list!!! Praise God for the seeds that God has planted in your son’s heart! I’ll add the Eucharist too. Thank you for adding to the list!
 
The list so far:
  1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God.
  2. We believe that Jesus was sinless.
  3. We believe that Jesus was born from a virgin named Mary.
  4. We believe that Jesus lived, was crucified and died, and was resurrected.
  5. We believe that the Bible is the Inspired Word of God, without error.
  6. We believe in the power of Prayer
  7. We believe in eternal life with God
  8. We all believe John 3:16
  9. We believe in the sainthood of believers.
  10. We believe in the Trinity.
    11.We believe that Jesus is also God the Son, second person of the Holy Trinity.
    12.We believe that God is the creator of all things.
    13.We believe in the forgiveness of sins.
    14.We beieve faith is a gift from God.
    15.We believe in the need for regeneration, to be born again.
    16.We believe that Jesus is God and Mary was his Mother.
    17.We believe that we must persevere.
    18.We believe in the importance of Christian unity, the fellowship of believers.
    19.We all believe that we glorify God through the fruits of the Spirit.
    20.We believe in celibrating the Eucharist.
    21.We all love God!!!👍
 
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