Catholics and Protestants, where is the Truth?

[wisdomseeker]

********My question is:

why is it so hard for protestants to accept that the Truth that the CC is The One True Church found by Christ Himself. since no one can point out no other than Christ found this Church.

what can we as Catholics do for protestants to understand and accept that God can not deceive, neither can He be deceived.?

can pastors of protestants congregations prove that they have been called by God to preach the Word? if so, how can they be preaching a different Gospel from the One Gospel of the CC?

appreciate all comments.

 

[chessmane4e5]

I think the first step is education. Education on the History of the Church and education on Martin Luther and why he really broke away from Catholicism.

Other than that the tough part is getting people to leave the faith community they are already comfortable with.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

To the question of where truth is: He is seated at the right hand of the Father.

God bless

 

[AmericanJosiah]

********My question is:

why is it so hard for protestants to accept that the Truth that the CC is The One True Church found by Christ Himself. since no one can point out no other than Christ found this Church.

1. Actually, it’s The Catholic Church that cannot point out that God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized anything whatsoever in connection with The Catholic Church.
2. You seem to be employing a false premise that something MUST be a dogmatic fact if it cannot be proven otherwise. This is absurd and rejected in any epistemology and in all rules of debate: a non reality cannot be disproven, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with the affirmative position. The Catholic Church makes some truely remarkable, accountability-evading claims for itself alone - and proclaims them dogmatic facts. Thus, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with it to prove such to be true. Good luck.
3. Protestants believe that Jesus DID found His church, and yes - the gates of hell shall not prevent it’s proclaimation (hasn’t happened yet - here we are, talking). And we believe that it is one and it is holy and it is catholic and it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers. We see ZERO evidence that Jesus founded ANY denomination - yours, mine or any other, we see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Catholic Church alone to be the sole… anything. We see ZERO evidience that Jesus promised that The Catholic Church exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead. We see ZERO evidence that God authorized The Catholic Church exclusively to do… anything or that having authority = being unaccountable. But if you have the proof, it’s time - after all these centuries - to produce it. Frankly, so far, we have nothing other than it itself alone making all these remarkable claims for it itself alone - insisting that it not be accountable for such but instead imposing that all that be circumvented and we must just accept whatever it says “with docility” as Jesus speaking.

what can we as Catholics do for protestants to understand and accept that God can not deceive, neither can He be deceived.?

Oh, we DO believe that. We just don’t think that the same is true for men if the self same so self claim for self alone. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly, correctly? Did that mean that ERGO they HAD to follow Him infallibly and were incapable of error - exempt from accountability? Nope. They both did WRONG. And God DID hold them accountable.

Over and over and over, God warns us of false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray - and He never exempted anyone or any teacher or any organization or any body or any institution or any denomination from that. In Revelation 2:2, we have an example of Jesus PRAISING people for doing what The Catholic Church forbids and denies - the Ephesians regarding their teachers as accountable, as NOT infallible and incapable of error, as NOT accepting whatever they said “with docility,” but for testing them, arbitrating the issue and finding them FALSE. Compare that with Catholic Catechism # 87 for example.

Friend, one circumventing accountability for self alone and replacing it with a demand that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility” is NO indication that self is correct. Studied any of the cults? Actually, self alone exempting self alone from accountability (as we see in the cults, with dictators in government, with some criminals) is often revealed to be a very dangerous and flawed epistemology. IMHO, the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - for Truth is confirmed in examination, and he cares for Truth rather than his own power and authority and lordship over others. It is the false teacher who must hide in the dark, must exempt himself alone from accountability, examination, norming - and rather insist that all just accept whatever he alone says “with docility.” Read your catechism # 87 for starters. “I’m right, so ergo I’m right when I say I’m right - so just accept it with docility, as God Himself speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I alone say that I alone CANNOT be wrong - so I can’t.” Friend, ego permitting, ANY can so exempt and demand but it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that one being correct.

if so, how can they be preaching a different Gospel from the One Gospel of the CC?

Interesting how you just accept The Catholic Church alone MUST be correct, ergo all the rest must be false. If a Protestant used your rubric, you’d be laughing just as we are as you use it.

.

 

[tweetymom]

1. Actually, it’s The Catholic Church that cannot point out that God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized anything whatsoever in connection with The Catholic Church.
2. You seem to be employing a false premise that something MUST be a dogmatic fact if it cannot be proven otherwise. This is absurd and rejected in any epistemology and in all rules of debate: a non reality cannot be disproven, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with the affirmative position. The Catholic Church makes some truely remarkable, accountability-evading claims for itself alone - and proclaims them dogmatic facts. Thus, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with it to prove such to be true. Good luck.
3. Protestants believe that Jesus DID found His church, and yes - the gates of hell shall not prevent it’s proclaimation (hasn’t happened yet - here we are, talking). And we believe that it is one and it is holy and it is catholic and it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers. We see ZERO evidence that Jesus founded ANY denomination - yours, mine or any other, we see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Catholic Church alone to be the sole… anything. We see ZERO evidience that Jesus promised that The Catholic Church exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead. We see ZERO evidence that God authorized The Catholic Church exclusively to do… anything or that having authority = being unaccountable. But if you have the proof, it’s time - after all these centuries - to produce it. Frankly, so far, we have nothing other than it itself alone making all these remarkable claims for it itself alone - insisting that it not be accountable for such but instead imposing that all that be circumvented and we must just accept whatever it says “with docility” as Jesus speaking.

Oh, we DO believe that. We just don’t think that the same is true for men if the self same so self claim for self alone. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly, correctly? Did that mean that ERGO they HAD to follow Him infallibly and were incapable of error - exempt from accountability? Nope. They both did WRONG. And God DID hold them accountable.

Over and over and over, God warns us of false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray - and He never exempted anyone or any teacher or any organization or any body or any institution or any denomination from that. In Revelation 2:2, we have an example of Jesus PRAISING people for doing what The Catholic Church forbids and denies - the Ephesians regarding their teachers as accountable, as NOT infallible and incapable of error, as NOT accepting whatever they said “with docility,” but for testing them, arbitrating the issue and finding them FALSE. Compare that with Catholic Catechism # 87 for example.

Friend, one circumventing accountability for self alone and replacing it with a demand that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility” is NO indication that self is correct. Studied any of the cults? Actually, self alone exempting self alone from accountability (as we see in the cults, with dictators in government, with some criminals) is often revealed to be a very dangerous and flawed epistemology. IMHO, the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - for Truth is confirmed in examination, and he cares for Truth rather than his own power and authority and lordship over others. It is the false teacher who must hide in the dark, must exempt himself alone from accountability, examination, norming - and rather insist that all just accept whatever he alone says “with docility.” Read your catechism # 87 for starters. “I’m right, so ergo I’m right when I say I’m right - so just accept it with docility, as God Himself speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I alone say that I alone CANNOT be wrong - so I can’t.” Friend, ego permitting, ANY can so exempt and demand but it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that one being correct.

Interesting how you just accept The Catholic Church alone MUST be correct, ergo all the rest must be false. If a Protestant used your rubric, you’d be laughing just as we are as you use it.

.

Amen to your whole post, especially number 3. As believers in Christ we are all His Church, that is who Jesus was refering to not just the Catholic Church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

1. Actually, it’s The Catholic Church that cannot point out that God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized anything whatsoever in connection with The Catholic Church.
2. You seem to be employing a false premise that something MUST be a dogmatic fact if it cannot be proven otherwise. This is absurd and rejected in any epistemology and in all rules of debate: a non reality cannot be disproven, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with the affirmative position. The Catholic Church makes some truely remarkable, accountability-evading claims for itself alone - and proclaims them dogmatic facts. Thus, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with it to prove such to be true. Good luck.
3. Protestants believe that Jesus DID found His church, and yes - the gates of hell shall not prevent it’s proclaimation (hasn’t happened yet - here we are, talking). And we believe that it is one and it is holy and it is catholic and it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers. We see ZERO evidence that Jesus founded ANY denomination - yours, mine or any other, we see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Catholic Church alone to be the sole… anything. We see ZERO evidience that Jesus promised that The Catholic Church exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead. We see ZERO evidence that God authorized The Catholic Church exclusively to do… anything or that having authority = being unaccountable. But if you have the proof, it’s time - after all these centuries - to produce it. Frankly, so far, we have nothing other than it itself alone making all these remarkable claims for it itself alone - insisting that it not be accountable for such but instead imposing that all that be circumvented and we must just accept whatever it says “with docility” as Jesus speaking.

Oh, we DO believe that. We just don’t think that the same is true for men if the self same so self claim for self alone. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly, correctly? Did that mean that ERGO they HAD to follow Him infallibly and were incapable of error - exempt from accountability? Nope. They both did WRONG. And God DID hold them accountable.

Over and over and over, God warns us of false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray - and He never exempted anyone or any teacher or any organization or any body or any institution or any denomination from that. In Revelation 2:2, we have an example of Jesus PRAISING people for doing what The Catholic Church forbids and denies - the Ephesians regarding their teachers as accountable, as NOT infallible and incapable of error, as NOT accepting whatever they said “with docility,” but for testing them, arbitrating the issue and finding them FALSE. Compare that with Catholic Catechism # 87 for example.

Friend, one circumventing accountability for self alone and replacing it with a demand that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility” is NO indication that self is correct. Studied any of the cults? Actually, self alone exempting self alone from accountability (as we see in the cults, with dictators in government, with some criminals) is often revealed to be a very dangerous and flawed epistemology. IMHO, the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - for Truth is confirmed in examination, and he cares for Truth rather than his own power and authority and lordship over others. It is the false teacher who must hide in the dark, must exempt himself alone from accountability, examination, norming - and rather insist that all just accept whatever he alone says “with docility.” Read your catechism # 87 for starters. “I’m right, so ergo I’m right when I say I’m right - so just accept it with docility, as God Himself speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I alone say that I alone CANNOT be wrong - so I can’t.” Friend, ego permitting, ANY can so exempt and demand but it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that one being correct.

Interesting how you just accept The Catholic Church alone MUST be correct, ergo all the rest must be false. If a Protestant used your rubric, you’d be laughing just as we are as you use it.

.

Now, i challenge you to show where did you go that you found zero evidence.

**Zech. 9:15-16 - this is a prophecy that the sons of Zion, which is the site of the establishment of the Eucharistic sacrifice, shall drink blood like wine and be saved. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the priests of the Catholic Church.

Ezek. 2:8-10; 3:1-3 - God orders Ezekiel to open his mouth and eat the scroll which is the Word of God. This foreshadows the true Word of God, Jesus Christ, who must be consumed.**

 

[wisdomseeker]

I think the first step is education. Education on the History of the Church and education on Martin Luther and why he really broke away from Catholicism.

Other than that the tough part is getting people to leave the faith community they are already comfortable with.

Yes, this is true. but is not it what the Truth is all about?

 

[wisdomseeker]

To the question of where truth is: He is seated at the right hand of the Father.

God bless

He sure is. that is exactly why He gave us One True Church because He had to go to be with the Father.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Amen to your whole post, especially number 3. As believers in Christ we are all His Church, that is who Jesus was refering to not just the Catholic Church.

No true. you could not know anything about Christ if someone had not taking the Bible ou of the One Church. the One in charge of the Word of God. everyone before the Bible had to come to the Church to know who Jesus is. this holds true to this day, although you have the Bible, you are not authorized to understand it. the Spirit was given to One Church only and was 1500 years before your theology took place. explain to us how your theology is contrary to the CC.

**Zech. 9:15-16 - this is a prophecy that the sons of Zion, which is the site of the establishment of the Eucharistic sacrifice, shall drink blood like wine and be saved. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the priests of the Catholic Church.

Ezek. 2:8-10; 3:1-3 - God orders Ezekiel to open his mouth and eat the scroll which is the Word of God. This foreshadows the true Word of God, Jesus Christ, who must be consumed.**

 

[JonNC]

**Zech. 9:15-16 - this is a prophecy that the sons of Zion, which is the site of the establishment of the Eucharistic sacrifice, shall drink blood like wine and be saved. **This prophecy is fulfilled only by the priests of the Catholic Church. ****

Ezek. 2:8-10; 3:1-3 - God orders Ezekiel to open his mouth and eat the scroll which is the Word of God. This foreshadows the true Word of God, Jesus Christ, who must be consumed.

How is this prophecy only fullfilled by priests of the Catholic Church? Even though the Catholic Church denies the validity of (most) western non-catholic pastors, it doesn’t deny the validity of Orthodox, PNCC, some other Old Catholics, even some northern European Lutherans.
Your claim requires a significant stretch of even implicitness in these scriptures.
Jon

 

[CMatt25]

Now, i challenge you to show where did you go that you found zero evidence.

**Zech. 9:15-16 - this is a prophecy that the sons of Zion, which is the site of the establishment of the Eucharistic sacrifice, shall drink blood like wine and be saved. This prophecy is fulfilled only by the priests of the Catholic Church.

Ezek. 2:8-10; 3:1-3 - God orders Ezekiel to open his mouth and eat the scroll which is the Word of God. This foreshadows the true Word of God, Jesus Christ, who must be consumed.**

How is that evidence? You have the faith or accept another’s interpretation of these verses that drinking wine and eating scroll can only be fulfilled by Catholic priests. Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans have the faith this can now be done thru their priests and clergy. Either because the Orthodox believe they have the truth of the early church instead of Rome. Or in the case of others because they believe Christ needs to reform His Church to keep the gates from prevailing in the end. Some even believe drinking and eating and gnawing and consuming were symbolic for believing in Christ. God afterall did speak symbolically in parables at times. So who’s to say. It’s all faith in the end.

 

[wisdomseeker]

How is this prophecy only fullfilled by priests of the Catholic Church? Even though the Catholic Church denies the validity of (most) western non-catholic pastors, it doesn’t deny the validity of Orthodox, PNCC, some other Old Catholics, even some northern European Lutherans.
Your claim requires a significant stretch of even implicitness in these scriptures.
Jon

you dont have to accept anything that the CC says. since the Bible was taking from the Church, anyone can simply read and claim whatever they want to claim. can we argue on this? simply ignore what the Bible says about the Church, her authority given by Christ. forget all that and begin to claim all that was given to the One Church by Christ Himself. begin to read the Bible 1500 years later or even 2000 years later and claim whatever you want. what does it matter, right? who can stop you from claiming whatever you want from the Bible? after all, God doesnt really mind if we enterpret His Word in which way it suits us.

 

[JonNC]

you dont have to accept anything that the CC says. since the Bible was taking from the Church, anyone can simply read and claim whatever they want to claim. can we argue on this? simply ignore what the Bible says about the Church, her authority given by Christ. forget all that and begin to claim all that was given to the One Church by Christ Himself. begin to read the Bible 1500 years later or even 2000 years later and claim whatever you want. what does it matter, right? who can stop you from claiming whatever you want from the Bible? after all, God doesnt really mind if we enterpret His Word in which way it suits us.

You’ve changed the question. How are the two scripture verses proof the The Catholic Church, those in communion with the Bishop of Rome, comprise the one True Church that Christ founded, to the exclusion of all the others, based on your contention that only Catholic priests can bring about the blessed Sacrament?

Jon

 

[wisdomseeker]

You’ve changed the question. How are the two scripture verses proof the The Catholic Church, those in communion with the Bishop of Rome, comprise the one True Church that Christ founded, to the exclusion of all the others, based on your contention that only Catholic priests can bring about the blessed Sacrament?

Jon

My friend. you already know the answer to that. i dont have to tell you.

 

[chessmane4e5]

1. Actually, it’s The Catholic Church that cannot point out that God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized anything whatsoever in connection with The Catholic Church.

Ummm…yes we can. Matt 16:13-19. Jesus clearly appoints Peter as the leader of the Church. Then through Apostolic succession we can show that the RCC has descended from Peter. It would also be okay to have descended from other Apostles, so long as they accept the Pope.

1. You seem to be employing a false premise that something MUST be a dogmatic fact if it cannot be proven otherwise. This is absurd and rejected in any epistemology and in all rules of debate: a non reality cannot be disproven, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with the affirmative position. The Catholic Church makes some truely remarkable, accountability-evading claims for itself alone - and proclaims them dogmatic facts. Thus, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with it to prove such to be true. Good luck.

We have a reality. Read any of the Early Church Fathers, they all submit to Rome. Read the Bible, no one challenges Peter’s authority. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Jesus did not say the things in Matt 16:13-19. Or to prove that the Early Church did not accept Peter or the other Popes (they called them Bishops at that time) that lead from Rome.

1. Protestants believe that Jesus DID found His church, and yes - the gates of hell shall not prevent it’s proclaimation (hasn’t happened yet - here we are, talking). And we believe that it is one and it is holy and it is catholic and it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers. We see ZERO evidence that Jesus founded ANY denomination - yours, mine or any other, we see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Catholic Church alone to be the sole… anything. We see ZERO evidience that Jesus promised that The Catholic Church exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead. We see ZERO evidence that God authorized The Catholic Church exclusively to do… anything or that having authority = being unaccountable. But if you have the proof, it’s time - after all these centuries - to produce it. Frankly, so far, we have nothing other than it itself alone making all these remarkable claims for it itself alone - insisting that it not be accountable for such but instead imposing that all that be circumvented and we must just accept whatever it says “with docility” as Jesus speaking.

First, the Gates of Hell is in reference to the Church, not the proclamation of the Good News.

Second, there was only one Denomination, and it was called Catholic by St. Ignatius around 100A.D… Catholic just means universal. But for 1000 years, there was only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and they all followed the Pope in Rome.

Third, please read Matt 16:13-19 and you will get all the evidence you need, that Jesus founded One Church upon Peter. Infallibility is there, Binding and Loosing. Authority is there, Keys of the Kingdom.

Fourth, the proof is that for 1500 years, from the time of Jesus’ resurrection, up until the Reformation, it was always accepted. It is called Tradition.

Over and over and over, God warns us of false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray - and He never exempted anyone or any teacher or any organization or any body or any institution or any denomination from that. In Revelation 2:2, we have an example of Jesus PRAISING people for doing what The Catholic Church forbids and denies - the Ephesians regarding their teachers as accountable, as NOT infallible and incapable of error, as NOT accepting whatever they said “with docility,” but for testing them, arbitrating the issue and finding them FALSE. Compare that with Catholic Catechism # 87 for example.

I see nothing of infallibility mentioned in that verse. I see it saying that they have “tested them that call themselves Apostles”. This was also done in the Early Church, when most things were still taught Orally, how could people know if something was true? Basically, if the 12 Apostles taught it, they know that to be true. So if a false “apostle” comes along teaching something different, they would know. Where has the RCC taught anything contrary to the Bible?

Interesting how you just accept The Catholic Church alone MUST be correct, ergo all the rest must be false. If a Protestant used your rubric, you’d be laughing just as we are as you use it.

Interesting how you just accept that the Bible is right? We know the Catholic Church is right because not only did it give us the Bible, but we have Tradition starting from the Apostles and being handed down by the Early Church Fathers. But that is not enough, we also have that Jesus told Peter the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church that Jesus was building upon Peter. The RCC is that same Church today. Jesus founded our Church upon Peter, who founded your Church? catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9701drag.asp

 

[wisdomseeker]

How is that evidence? You have the faith or accept another’s interpretation of these verses that drinking wine and eating scroll can only be fulfilled by Catholic priests. Orthodox, Anglicans, and Lutherans have the faith this can now be done thru their priests and clergy. Either because the Orthodox believe they have the truth of the early church instead of Rome. Or in the case of others because they believe Christ needs to reform His Church to keep the gates from prevailing in the end. Some even believe drinking and eating and gnawing and consuming were symbolic for believing in Christ. God afterall did speak symbolically in parables at times. So who’s to say. It’s all faith in the end.

are you serious? EO have Apostolic succession. they believe as we believe. they have priests. Anglicans and lutherans do not have valid priests neither can they have a Valid Eucharist. where did you get this idea?

who is to say? do you believe that Christ left us with the Truth? One Truth? or do you think that Jesus left us to confusion? different teachings? do you believe that Jesus left us to sort out what the Truth is? i mean each individual?

 

[Carlan]

Hello everyone, I just want say., that the Catholic Church is defined by the Bible it produced and over 2000 years of tradition, and you don’t think we are right to claim the one Church Christ founded? Catholics follow Christ alone and do so through his Body, the one Holy Apostolic and Catholic(universal) Church.

Why do you feel the Catholic Church is wrong when they claim and preach Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior? Do you really believe that we do not follow Jesus and love him above all else? He is the center of our worship. His Church functions completely in and through him. It has always been so from Pentecost until today and will be until the end of time. We His Body have the fullness of what he commissioned his Apostles to hand on down throught the ages. We believe it and we live it. Come see and God bless us all, Carlan

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Why do you feel the Catholic Church is wrong when they claim and preach Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior? Do you really believe that we do not follow Jesus and love him above all else?

Hello Carlan. The belief that the Catholic Church is not the Church which Christ founded and the charge that Catholics are not Christian (ie don’t follow Christ) are two different things. The first I would be open to discuss. The second I wouldn’t waste my time with.

I have not read through this entire thread so I am hoping that the latter charge has not been used.

God bless you

 

[benidict]

********My question is:

why is it so hard for protestants to accept that the Truth that the CC is The One True Church found by Christ Himself. since no one can point out no other than Christ found this Church.

what can we as Catholics do for protestants to understand and accept that God can not deceive, neither can He be deceived.?

can pastors of protestants congregations prove that they have been called by God to preach the Word? if so, how can they be preaching a different Gospel from the One Gospel of the CC?

appreciate all comments.

pray

 

[Lutheranteach]

********My question is:

why is it so hard for protestants to accept that the Truth that the CC is The One True Church found by Christ Himself. since no one can point out no other than Christ found this Church.

what can we as Catholics do for protestants to understand and accept that God can not deceive, neither can He be deceived.?

can pastors of protestants congregations prove that they have been called by God to preach the Word? if so, how can they be preaching a different Gospel from the One Gospel of the CC?

appreciate all comments.

I would not dare to speak for all protestants, but I would wager there are a few main thoughts here:

1. The Catholic church was A) Never the one true church; or B) Was part of the true church but never singly had that standing.
2. The Catholic Church was at one time the one true church but became less because of various factors that forced the need for reformation.