Catholics and Protestants, where is the Truth?

[Carlan]

I would not dare to speak for all protestants, but I would wager there are a few main thoughts here:

1. The Catholic church was A) Never the one true church; or B) Was part of the true church but never singly had that standing.
2. The Catholic Church was at one time the one true church but became less because of various factors that forced the need for reformation.

The reformation was the big mistake, the so called reformers should have been obedient and fought for reforms within the Church. L ook where we are 40,000 protesting churches later.shrug:Carlan

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Blessings and peace be with you all.

We should pray for each other, this is the week for Christian Unity, The one body with many parts.

Blessings

Eric

 

[JonNC]

=wisdomseeker;6204498]are you serious? EO have Apostolic succession. they believe as we believe.

Really? Have you read some of the threads here lately? If they believe as you believe, show me the unity. They do not believe in universal jurisdiction, or papal infallibility (when speaking ex cathedra). They do not believe in Transubstantiation. They don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

they have priests.

Yes, they do.

Anglicans and lutherans do not have valid priests neither can they have a Valid Eucharist. where did you get this idea?

In the teaching of the Catholic Church, correct. Though that does not even apply to all Lutherans, and Cardinal Ratzinger once said this:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper

who is to say? do you believe that Christ left us with the Truth? One Truth? or do you think that Jesus left us to confusion? different teachings? do you believe that Jesus left us to sort out what the Truth is? i mean each individual?

I believe the Lord left us with one truth, which sinful human beings have confused.
As a response, we should all join Eric Hyom in his prayer above:

We should pray for each other, this is the week for Christian Unity, The one body with many parts.

Eric, I join my prayer for unity with yours, my Christian sibling. I pray for the day when my Lutheran table and your Catholic table will be open to both us.

Jon

 

[AmericanJosiah]

The reformation was the big mistake, the so called reformers should have been obedient and fought for reforms within the Church. L ook where we are 40,000 protesting churches later:Carlan

As a Lutheran, I regard that whole chapter as profoundly regretable, and yes avoidable…

But I’d remind you of some things: Luther didn’t leave, he was excommunicated. It’s hard to work “within” when you are kicked out.

Also, how does one “reform” a church body that demands that it alone is infallible, incapable of error, exempt from accountability, and that all must accept whatever it alone says “with docility” (Catholic Catechism # 87, for example)? I realize that it itself has “reformed” (I use that word in a most limited sense) things within itself, things unrelated to faith or morals. But since all within are REQUIRED to just accept doctrine “with docility” and WHATEVER that singular denomination says (in official matters of faith and morals) “with docility” and “as Jesus speaking,” then reform is impossible. Martin Luther - while often a poor leader and certainly guilty of mismanaging much - was a smart and informed man. That he did not understand that in 1517 is perhaps his biggest fault. Of course, everyone did by 1521 - including he.

I disagree with the premise here that a teacher is correct because the self same alone proclaims that the self same alone is - and exempts himself from any accountability for such, replacing that with the power-ploy of insisting that self alone is “infallible” and thus incapable of error and exempt from norming: “I’m right so I’m right when I say I’m right, thus I’m right - just accept it with docility, as Jesus speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I’m right and can’t be wrong.” IMHO, that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that teacher being right, or his teaching being Truth. In fact, I suspect that the true teacher comes into the light and welcomes the light - confident that the light will reveal the truth, and because he is interested in the Truth rather than his own ego, claims, power, authority and ability to lord it over others. The false teacher, I suspect, feels a strong need to hide in the dark, to exempt himself from accountability and norming, and in its place, to impose the demand of self alone for self alone that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility.”

Thank you!

Pax

• Josiah

.

 

[chessmane4e5]

As a Lutheran, I regard that whole chapter as profoundly regretable, and yes avoidable…

But I’d remind you of some things: Luther didn’t leave, he was excommunicated. It’s hard to work “within” when you are kicked out.

He was only excommunicated after he insisted that man was saved by faith ALONE and then published a paper on it. Info here

Also, how does one “reform” a church body that demands that it alone is infallible, incapable of error, exempt from accountability, and that all must accept whatever it alone says “with docility” (Catholic Catechism # 87, for example)? I realize that it itself has “reformed” (I use that word in a most limited sense) things within itself, things unrelated to faith or morals. But since all within are REQUIRED to just accept doctrine “with docility” and WHATEVER that singular denomination says (in official matters of faith and morals) “with docility” and “as Jesus speaking,” then reform is impossible. Martin Luther - while often a poor leader and certainly guilty of mismanaging much - was a smart and informed man. That he did not understand that in 1517 is perhaps his biggest fault. Of course, everyone did by 1521 - including he.

I disagree with the premise here that a teacher is correct because the self same alone proclaims that the self same alone is - and exempts himself from any accountability for such, replacing that with the power-ploy of insisting that self alone is “infallible” and thus incapable of error and exempt from norming: “I’m right so I’m right when I say I’m right, thus I’m right - just accept it with docility, as Jesus speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I’m right and can’t be wrong.” IMHO, that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that teacher being right, or his teaching being Truth. In fact, I suspect that the true teacher comes into the light and welcomes the light - confident that the light will reveal the truth, and because he is interested in the Truth rather than his own ego, claims, power, authority and ability to lord it over others. The false teacher, I suspect, feels a strong need to hide in the dark, to exempt himself from accountability and norming, and in its place, to impose the demand of self alone for self alone that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility.”

I understand what you are saying. But can you provide any examples of when the Church was wrong and in need of reforming? If the Church has indeed never been “wrong”, then it would not need to change.

 

[CMatt25]

are you serious? EO have Apostolic succession. they believe as we believe. they have priests. Anglicans and lutherans do not have valid priests neither can they have a Valid Eucharist. where did you get this idea?

who is to say? do you believe that Christ left us with the Truth? One Truth? or do you think that Jesus left us to confusion? different teachings? do you believe that Jesus left us to sort out what the Truth is? i mean each individual?

Serious but JonNC answered in my absence. Thanks Jon!

 

[TDonlan]

Has anyone considered the Councils? The Nicene Creed after the Council of Constantiople (back in 381) states one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. That was way before the Protestant Reformation.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Really? Have you read some of the threads here lately? If they believe as you believe, show me the unity. They do not believe in universal jurisdiction, or papal infallibility (when speaking ex cathedra). They do not believe in Transubstantiation. They don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church.

**The Truth is Truth even if no one believes. are you trying to imply that Jesus is not True because many didnt believe Him and because many didnt believe what he said, He didnt speak the Truth? **

Yes, they do.

In the teaching of the Catholic Church, correct. Though that does not even apply to all Lutherans, and Cardinal Ratzinger once said this:

**the holy father sent a letter to the lutheran in germany making them aware that they dont have a valid Eucharist. this is only found in the CC. if you have listen to father groeschel two weekends ago, you would have been aware of this. the bishop wasnt too happy about it. but so what. you dont have right to which was not given to you. **

I believe the Lord left us with one truth, which sinful human beings have confused.
As a response, we should all join Eric Hyom in his prayer above:

**Humans beings is correct, this includes all of you. the only problem here is that our Lord found One Church no man have the right to build another and claim that they have the same right as that One Church Jesus found. **

**A prayer! why? you know what to do. dont you? you know the Gospel and you know about the Church. you have no excuse to not be in her. reject the Church knowingly and you are in danger. **

Eric, I join my prayer for unity with yours, my Christian sibling. I pray for the day when my Lutheran table and your Catholic table will be open to both us.

Jon

Peace

 

[CMatt25]

Peace

and to you and all our brothers and sisters in Christ and to all people on His earth.

 

[KathleenGee]

I read Fr Thomas Dubay’s book, ‘Faith and Certitude’, and the real basic problem is personal issues with human authority.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I read Fr Thomas Dubay’s book, ‘Faith and Certitude’, and the real basic problem is personal issues with human authority.

of course it is. this is the fear that was passed on to them from luther.

 

[JonNC]

=wisdomseeker;6206945]Peace

And peace also with you.

The Truth is Truth even if no one believes. are you trying to imply that Jesus is not True because many didnt believe Him and because many didnt believe what he said, He didnt speak the Truth?

Ignoring the change you have made from Orthodox agree with Catholics, actually I think that is the implication that is made only by triumphalists from any tradition. Christ’s Truth is unchanging, only human beings mess that up.

Humans beings is correct, this includes all of you. the only problem here is that our Lord found One Church no man have the right to build another and claim that they have the same right as that One Church Jesus found.

Correct, the one true Church, the communion of saints, of which you and I are members by virtue of our Baptisms.

A prayer! why? you know what to do. dont you? you know the Gospel and you know about the Church. you have no excuse to not be in her. reject the Church knowingly and you are in danger.

You don’t want to pray for Christian unity?
I’m a member of the catholic faith, just not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

The Truth is in the Blood.

 

[wisdomseeker]

And peace also with you.

Ignoring the change you have made from Orthodox agree with Catholics, actually I think that is the implication that is made only by triumphalists from any tradition. Christ’s Truth is unchanging, only human beings mess that up.

Correct, the one true Church, the communion of saints, of which you and I are members by virtue of our Baptisms.

You don’t want to pray for Christian unity?
I’m a member of the catholic faith, just not in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

Jon

What is the point, you just keep ignoring what the Church says. as always, whatever you say.

Peace.

 

[joe370]

Hey Josiah…

Originally Posted by wisdomseeker View Post
My question is:

why is it so hard for protestants to accept that the Truth that the CC is The One True Church found by Christ Himself. since no one can point out no other than Christ found this Church.

1. Actually, it’s The Catholic Church that cannot point out that God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized anything whatsoever in connection with The Catholic Church.

OK…Please identify the church that can point out what God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized?

1. You seem to be employing a false premise that something MUST be a dogmatic fact if it cannot be proven otherwise. This is absurd and rejected in any epistemology and in all rules of debate: a non reality cannot be disproven,

A non reality cannot be disproved? So, superman for example (a non reality) - cannot be disproved; I say it can be disproved? If no one can point (other than Jesus Christ) - to the person who founded the Catholic Church (what you call a non reality) - then this non reality cannot be disproved; is that what you are saying? You sure do employ some tortuous methods to make your point. LOL…That’s not a false premise; that is a non reality premise. If it is a non reality that the CC was founded by Jesus Christ, then prove it by giving me the name of the man or men that founded the CC to which I belong?

the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with the affirmative position.

You are the one insisting that the CC is not the church founded by Jesus; the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with your affirmative position. Tell you what, give me the name of the Protestant church that existed for the first 500 years of Christianity and I will concede that one of these PC’s could in fact be the church of Matthew 16!

The Catholic Church makes some truely remarkable, accountability-evading claims for itself alone - and proclaims them dogmatic facts.

Like I said before: please identify the church founded by Jesus, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem, in the 1st century, forever guided by the holy spirit, into all truth, regarding the teachings of Jesus Christ only, and I will leave the CC immediately. Josiah, if I belong to a man-made church as opposed to the church of Matthew 16, established by God, then I most definitely need to leave this accountability-evading man-made church, in search of the one church founded by Jesus Christ. You have a lot of negative things to say about the reputed man-made CC, but you refuse to help me identify the church, in the world today, (that existed in the 1st century) - that is forever guided by the Holy spirit into all truths, as opposed to partial truths.

The one church of Matthew 16, forever guided by the HS, is not the catholic church,(small c) - comprised of all churches, regardless of denomination. Jesus found one church, not churches or a denomination. Please move away from your hackneyed commentary on the CC and help me understand your point of view regarding the church to which I should belong??? Let’s assume that I agree with you about the CC, and therefore, no need to mention the CC. One church in the world today existed in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd century; please identify this church?

1. Protestants believe that Jesus DID found His church

OK…

…and yes - the gates of hell shall not prevent it’s proclaimation (hasn’t happened yet - here we are, talking).

OK…

…And we believe that it is one and it is holy and it is catholic and it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers.

So, the EOC, the CC, the Anglican church etc. (every single protestant church) - all comprise the one catholic church, communion of saints, mystical union of all believers, to which the gates of hell will never prevail, founded by Jesus Christ in the 1st century; is that what you are saying? This is the church guided into all truth? These are really simple questions deserving simple answers.

We see ZERO evidence that Jesus founded ANY denomination - yours, mine or any other…

Couldn’t agree with you more! The bible tells us that Jesus founded a church. Prior to the 16th century the word denomination, to identify Jesus’ church, never ever used.

…we see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Catholic Church alone to be the sole… anything.

We see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Protestant churches alone to be the sole… anything. This rules out the CC and all of the PC’s to be the sole…anything. The only conclusion that one can draw from this premise is that the CC and all PC’s, have ZERO evidence that they are in fact the churches founded by Jesus Christ. So again, please help find the church founded by Jesus Christ, in the 1st century?

We see ZERO evidience that Jesus promised that The Catholic Church exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead.

We see ZERO evidence that Jesus promised that The PC’s exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead. So, the fact that Jesus said, regarding His established church, he, the Spirit of truth, will forever guide you into all truth (John 14 and 16) - does not suggest that His church leaders were/are protected from teaching fallibly regarding Jesus’ teachings only?

Continued…

 

[joe370]

Over and over and over, God warns us of false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray - and He never exempted anyone or any teacher or any organization or any body or any institution or any denomination from that.

I totally agree. As I have said before, there were false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray, in the CC and the Lutheran church.

In Revelation 2:2, we have an example of Jesus PRAISING people for doing what The Catholic Church forbids and denies - the Ephesians regarding their teachers as accountable, as NOT infallible and incapable of error, as NOT accepting whatever they said “with docility,” but for testing them, arbitrating the issue and finding them FALSE. Compare that with Catholic Catechism # 87 for example.

Friend, one circumventing accountability for self alone and replacing it with a demand that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility” is NO indication that self is correct. Studied any of the cults? Actually, self alone exempting self alone from accountability (as we see in the cults, with dictators in government, with some criminals) is often revealed to be a very dangerous and flawed epistemology. IMHO, the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - for Truth is confirmed in examination, and he cares for Truth rather than his own power and authority and lordship over others. It is the false teacher who must hide in the dark, must exempt himself alone from accountability, examination, norming - and rather insist that all just accept whatever he alone says “with docility.” Read your catechism # 87 for starters. “I’m right, so ergo I’m right when I say I’m right - so just accept it with docility, as God Himself speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I alone say that I alone CANNOT be wrong - so I can’t.” Friend, ego permitting, ANY can so exempt and demand but it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that one being correct.

Ok, let’s assume that you are right about the CC to which I belong and I am now considering the idea of leaving the CC. Help me find the church of Matthew 16 forever guided by the holy spirit into all truth as opposed to partial truths. No need to mention the CC since I am, hypothetically leaving the CC. Steer me in the direction of the church that can be trusted, doctrinally speaking or otherwise???

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

1. Actually, it’s The Catholic Church that cannot point out that God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized anything whatsoever in connection with The Catholic Church.
2. You seem to be employing a false premise that something MUST be a dogmatic fact if it cannot be proven otherwise. This is absurd and rejected in any epistemology and in all rules of debate: a non reality cannot be disproven, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with the affirmative position. The Catholic Church makes some truely remarkable, accountability-evading claims for itself alone - and proclaims them dogmatic facts. Thus, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with it to prove such to be true. Good luck.
3. Protestants believe that Jesus DID found His church, and yes - the gates of hell shall not prevent it’s proclaimation (hasn’t happened yet - here we are, talking). And we believe that it is one and it is holy and it is catholic and it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers. We see ZERO evidence that Jesus founded ANY denomination - yours, mine or any other, we see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Catholic Church alone to be the sole… anything. We see ZERO evidience that Jesus promised that The Catholic Church exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead. We see ZERO evidence that God authorized The Catholic Church exclusively to do… anything or that having authority = being unaccountable. But if you have the proof, it’s time - after all these centuries - to produce it. Frankly, so far, we have nothing other than it itself alone making all these remarkable claims for it itself alone - insisting that it not be accountable for such but instead imposing that all that be circumvented and we must just accept whatever it says “with docility” as Jesus speaking.

Oh, we DO believe that. We just don’t think that the same is true for men if the self same so self claim for self alone. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly, correctly? Did that mean that ERGO they HAD to follow Him infallibly and were incapable of error - exempt from accountability? Nope. They both did WRONG. And God DID hold them accountable.

Over and over and over, God warns us of false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray - and He never exempted anyone or any teacher or any organization or any body or any institution or any denomination from that. In Revelation 2:2, we have an example of Jesus PRAISING people for doing what The Catholic Church forbids and denies - the Ephesians regarding their teachers as accountable, as NOT infallible and incapable of error, as NOT accepting whatever they said “with docility,” but for testing them, arbitrating the issue and finding them FALSE. Compare that with Catholic Catechism # 87 for example.

Friend, one circumventing accountability for self alone and replacing it with a demand that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility” is NO indication that self is correct. Studied any of the cults? Actually, self alone exempting self alone from accountability (as we see in the cults, with dictators in government, with some criminals) is often revealed to be a very dangerous and flawed epistemology. IMHO, the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - for Truth is confirmed in examination, and he cares for Truth rather than his own power and authority and lordship over others. It is the false teacher who must hide in the dark, must exempt himself alone from accountability, examination, norming - and rather insist that all just accept whatever he alone says “with docility.” Read your catechism # 87 for starters. “I’m right, so ergo I’m right when I say I’m right - so just accept it with docility, as God Himself speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I alone say that I alone CANNOT be wrong - so I can’t.” Friend, ego permitting, ANY can so exempt and demand but it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that one being correct.

Interesting how you just accept The Catholic Church alone MUST be correct, ergo all the rest must be false. If a Protestant used your rubric, you’d be laughing just as we are as you use it.

.

AmericanJosiah - really great post.

 

[wisdomseeker]

AmericanJosiah - really great post.

Sure it is. can you identify the difference between his opinions and the Truth?

 

[Tomster]

AmericanJosiah - really great post.

Actually, the religion founded by Christ comprises those truths, precepts, and means of salvation by which its professors are united with God and, in virtue of this union, with one another. It is, therefore, in the strict sense of the word, one religion, not a plurality of religions.

The Christian religion is unchangeable if the sum total of its doctrine, as preached by the Apostles, is to remain ever the same. That it will remain the same we are assured, on the one hand, by the commission given by Christ to His Apostles and their successors; and, on the other hand, by the promise made to them (Matthew 28: 18-20). Christ charges His Apostles and their successors to preach to the end of time that doctrine which He precisely defined, and which, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they afterwards rightly understood; and to them and their successors, as preachers of His doctrine, He promises His never failing assistance. His intention was, therefore, that the entirety of His doctrine, which He had entrusted to them, should endure to the end of time; and by His assistance His intention continues to be realized.

I see that you consider yourself a Protestant. Well then, you should realize that for the unchangeableness of doctrine it is required that no dogma be set aside, no new article added, and no point of doctrine interpeted contrary to its original meaning. A casual scan of historical Protestantism will easily show that Protestants have changed doctrine, set aside dogma and have interpreted doctrine contrary to their original meaning.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Josiah:

1. Actually, it’s The Catholic Church that cannot point out that God and/or Jesus and/or ANY Apostles did, said, promised or authorized anything whatsoever in connection with The Catholic Church.
2. You seem to be employing a false premise that something MUST be a dogmatic fact if it cannot be proven otherwise. This is absurd and rejected in any epistemology and in all rules of debate: a non reality cannot be disproven, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with the affirmative position. The Catholic Church makes some truely remarkable, accountability-evading claims for itself alone - and proclaims them dogmatic facts. Thus, the “burden of proof” lies exclusively and solely with it to prove such to be true. Good luck.
3. Protestants believe that Jesus DID found His church, and yes - the gates of hell shall not prevent it’s proclaimation (hasn’t happened yet - here we are, talking). And we believe that it is one and it is holy and it is catholic and it is the communion of saints, the mystical union of all believers. We see ZERO evidence that Jesus founded ANY denomination - yours, mine or any other, we see ZERO evidence that Jesus proclaimed The Catholic Church alone to be the sole… anything. We see ZERO evidience that Jesus promised that The Catholic Church exclusively would be lead by God and that it alone exclusively would infallibly and persistently and consistently follow that lead. We see ZERO evidence that God authorized The Catholic Church exclusively to do… anything or that having authority = being unaccountable. But if you have the proof, it’s time - after all these centuries - to produce it. Frankly, so far, we have nothing other than it itself alone making all these remarkable claims for it itself alone - insisting that it not be accountable for such but instead imposing that all that be circumvented and we must just accept whatever it says “with docility” as Jesus speaking.

Oh, we DO believe that. We just don’t think that the same is true for men if the self same so self claim for self alone. Did God lead Adam and Eve? Infallibly, correctly? Did that mean that ERGO they HAD to follow Him infallibly and were incapable of error - exempt from accountability? Nope. They both did WRONG. And God DID hold them accountable.

Over and over and over, God warns us of false teachers, antichrists, those that lead many astray - and He never exempted anyone or any teacher or any organization or any body or any institution or any denomination from that. In Revelation 2:2, we have an example of Jesus PRAISING people for doing what The Catholic Church forbids and denies - the Ephesians regarding their teachers as accountable, as NOT infallible and incapable of error, as NOT accepting whatever they said “with docility,” but for testing them, arbitrating the issue and finding them FALSE. Compare that with Catholic Catechism # 87 for example.

Friend, one circumventing accountability for self alone and replacing it with a demand that whatever self alone says just be accepted “with docility” is NO indication that self is correct. Studied any of the cults? Actually, self alone exempting self alone from accountability (as we see in the cults, with dictators in government, with some criminals) is often revealed to be a very dangerous and flawed epistemology. IMHO, the true teacher welcomes the light and comes into the light - for Truth is confirmed in examination, and he cares for Truth rather than his own power and authority and lordship over others. It is the false teacher who must hide in the dark, must exempt himself alone from accountability, examination, norming - and rather insist that all just accept whatever he alone says “with docility.” Read your catechism # 87 for starters. “I’m right, so ergo I’m right when I say I’m right - so just accept it with docility, as God Himself speaking. I don’t need no norming cuz I alone say that I alone CANNOT be wrong - so I can’t.” Friend, ego permitting, ANY can so exempt and demand but it has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that one being correct.

Interesting how you just accept The Catholic Church alone MUST be correct, ergo all the rest must be false. If a Protestant used your rubric, you’d be laughing just as we are as you use it.

.

AmericanJosiah - really great post.

Thanks.

.