Catholics and Protestants, where is the Truth?

[Tomster]

Sure it is. can you identify the difference between his opinions and the Truth?

I know that jars_of_clay cannot make the distinction. As a registered Protestant jars_of_clay would suffer what most Protestants suffer from - the scourge of private interpretation.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I know that jars_of_clay cannot make the distinction. As a registered Protestant jars_of_clay would suffer what most Protestants suffer from - the scourge of private interpretation.

i am hoping that he will take my question serious and give me an honest response.

 

[Pawel_J]

Second, there was only one Denomination, and it was called Catholic by St. Ignatius around 100A.D… Catholic just means universal. But for 1000 years, there was only One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and they all followed the Pope in Rome.

What about the gnostic churches of the 1st - 2nd century? What about the Albigensians (Cathars) of the 10-12th century, a Christian church smashed in the south of France by the crusade organised by the pope Innocent III in the years 1209 - 1229. The number of casualties are estimated at 200,000 up to 1,000,000 massacred innocent people.
What about the Arians of the Middle Ages, the Waldensians, the Arnoldists and many many more. All those churches, factions and sects of Christian origin have been suppressed by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church by force, sometimes by military force, persecution and by destroying all their scriptures in order to remain the only and universal (Catholic) Christian Church.

 

[wisdomseeker]

What about the gnostic churches of the 1st - 2nd century? What about the Albigensians (Cathars) of the 10-12th century, a Christian church smashed in the south of France by the crusade organised by the pope Innocent III in the years 1209 - 1229. The number of casualties are estimated at 200,000 up to 1,000,000 massacred innocent people.
What about the Arians of the Middle Ages, the Waldensians, the Arnoldists and many many more. All those churches, factions and sects of Christian origin have been suppressed by the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church by force, sometimes by military force, persecution and by destroying all their scriptures in order to remain the only and universal (Catholic) Christian Church.

are you for Christ or against Christ?

 

[Pawel_J]

are you for Christ or against Christ?

Your question has nothing to do with what I have just said.
Of course I am ‘for Christ’ , as you put it. I simply do not accept intolerance, now and in the past. And, despite my being Catholic, I do not think the Catholic Church is the only, true Christian Church. If Christians cannot unite themselves under one banner, they should accept the manifoldness of todays Christianity without trying to prove which denomination is better or more genuine.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Your question has nothing to do with what I have just said.
Of course I am ‘for Christ’ , as you put it. I simply do not accept intolerance, now and in the past. And, despite my being Catholic, I do not think the Catholic Church is the only, true Christian Church. If Christians cannot unite themselves under one banner, they should accept the manifoldness of todays Christianity without trying to prove which denomination is better or more genuine.

here are some good reading about the Church. why the Church must stand against heresy. i know it is a lot of reading but it could help us Catholics to know and stand for the Truth. it is very important that we come to understand that Truth must be proclaimed. the Church is resposible for that. the Church will answer to God if she doesnt stand for the Truth. just because protestants got the Bible it does not mean they understand the Teachings of Jesus, i dont care how good they look. we must stand with Jesus. Jesus never let others believe what they want, He died speaking the Truth. He came to witness for the Truth and He died for that. the Church cannot in anyway remain silent, she must be a witness to the Truth. for that she was sent forth.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrkc.html

peace

 

[tweetymom]

Your question has nothing to do with what I have just said.
Of course I am ‘for Christ’ , as you put it. I simply do not accept intolerance, now and in the past. And, despite my being Catholic, I do not think the Catholic Church is the only, true Christian Church. If Christians cannot unite themselves under one banner, they should accept the manifoldness of todays Christianity without trying to prove which denomination is better or more genuine.

AMEN to that brother.

 

[CMatt25]

Your question has nothing to do with what I have just said.
Of course I am ‘for Christ’ , as you put it. I simply do not accept intolerance, now and in the past. And, despite my being Catholic, I do not think the Catholic Church is the only, true Christian Church. If Christians cannot unite themselves under one banner, they should accept the manifoldness of todays Christianity without trying to prove which denomination is better or more genuine.

Accepting in diversity we can still be united for Christ.

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

Actually, the religion founded by Christ comprises those truths, precepts, and means of salvation by which its professors are united with God and, in virtue of this union, with one another. It is, therefore, in the strict sense of the word, one religion, not a plurality of religions.

The Christian religion is unchangeable if the sum total of its doctrine, as preached by the Apostles, is to remain ever the same. That it will remain the same we are assured, on the one hand, by the commission given by Christ to His Apostles and their successors; and, on the other hand, by the promise made to them (Matthew 28: 18-20). Christ charges His Apostles and their successors to preach to the end of time that doctrine which He precisely defined, and which, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they afterwards rightly understood; and to them and their successors, as preachers of His doctrine, He promises His never failing assistance. His intention was, therefore, that the entirety of His doctrine, which He had entrusted to them, should endure to the end of time; and by His assistance His intention continues to be realized.

I see that you consider yourself a Protestant. Well then, you should realize that for the unchangeableness of doctrine it is required that no dogma be set aside, no new article added, and no point of doctrine interpeted contrary to its original meaning. A casual scan of historical Protestantism will easily show that Protestants have changed doctrine, set aside dogma and have interpreted doctrine contrary to their original meaning.

Yes, consider myself Protestant - I’m a former Catholic.

In many other postings I see in this forum there is this “Catholic’s are always right.” Uh-uh. Nadda. No.

Unchangableness of doctrine? Essentially over the years, Catholics have been playing telephone over the centuries. One guy whispers to another and another and another until you get to the end of the line and here’s how something get’s interpreted. (Yes, this is merely a simple example!)

Original guy - “We should follow Jesus and not have riches, but just preach the Gospel.”

Last guy - “We should have riches and preach the Gospel, so build elaborate church buildings with silver, gold, and idols.”

Yes, I’m not giving an example of doctrine. I REALLY don’t want to get into it because it would be a waste of my time to get into it here and it ends up with the last answer I saw in another thread. “Oh, you poor Protestents you don’t know the truth because Catholics are always right.” Sick. (yes, not a direct quote, but the “Catholics are always right” part is a quote.)

Most of these threads end up in bickering. I’m sure this comment will kick the tires and light the fires, but I’m just answer you and your comment to me.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Accepting in diversity we can still be united for Christ.

humnnn…

as far as i know, the holy father has said that he is not so concern about evangelizing protestants any longer. i think unity is impossible.

the problem is that the Church has an obligation with her Lord to speak the Truth to all men. now if we cant make distinction of what is True and what is not. or if the Truth doesnt really matter as long as we get along, we leave Christ out and. because we all can be speaking the Truth when one teaches contrary to the other. how is the people to know what to believe? is the Body and Blood of Christ true in hte Eucharist? is this important to Jesus that we must believe? questions like these must be asked before one decides to just discard it out of the people’s lives. should the Church just accept that protestants teachings are ok for all? it doesnt really matter what one beliefs?
does Jesus cares about His teachings? does Jesus cares about what we believe?

"For, in the first place, when you assemble as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you; and I partly believe it, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized."
1Corinthians 11:18-19

 

[Joshua27]

********My question is:

why is it so hard for protestants to accept that the Truth that the CC is The One True Church found by Christ Himself. since no one can point out no other than Christ found this Church.

what can we as Catholics do for protestants to understand and accept that God can not deceive, neither can He be deceived.?

can pastors of protestants congregations prove that they have been called by God to preach the Word? if so, how can they be preaching a different Gospel from the One Gospel of the CC?

appreciate all comments.

Let me throw some meat out here as food for discussion…

Matthew 13:24 - as quoted by Messiah:

24 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.

25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.

26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 "The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28" ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
"The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 "‘No,’ he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ "

Wisdomseeker, your last reference was from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, so my question is “has God allowed deception or corruption of the truth?”

If the answer is “yes” then the question becomes, “which is truth and which is non-truth, if everything clearly mixed together?”

 

[wisdomseeker]

Let me throw some meat out here as food for discussion…

Matthew 13:24 - as quoted by Messiah:

Wisdomseeker, your last reference was from Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, so my question is “has God allowed deception or corruption of the truth?”

If the answer is “yes” then the question becomes, “which is truth and which is non-truth, if everything clearly mixed together?”

No, He didnt. Jesus never said that the Truth would be corrupted. there are weeds who are deceived by the lies of the devil and stop believing the Truth. the Truth is protected.

by your assumption, no one would be weeds because they would not be at fault since the Truth did not prevail.

the CC suffers to this day because she preserves the Truth through the ages.

just think for a moment. the CC suffers mainly because of the claims she makes. Jesus suffered because of the claims He made.

 

[CMatt25]

humnnn…

as far as i know, the holy father has said that he is not so concern about evangelizing protestants any longer. i think unity is impossible.

the problem is that the Church has an obligation with her Lord to speak the Truth to all men. now if we cant make distinction of what is True and what is not. or if the Truth doesnt really matter as long as we get along, we leave Christ out and. because we all can be speaking the Truth when one teaches contrary to the other. how is the people to know what to believe? is the Body and Blood of Christ true in hte Eucharist? is this important to Jesus that we must believe? questions like these must be asked before one decides to just discard it out of the people’s lives. should the Church just accept that protestants teachings are ok for all? it doesnt really matter what one beliefs?
does Jesus cares about His teachings? does Jesus cares about what we believe? /QUOTE]

Was the Pope speaking in ex cathedra? I too think unity on EVERY detail is going to be sadly impossible when one faith group thinks they have all truth and won’t come to the table. Catholics sometimes forget their “truth” is simply faith, what they believe, when you get right down to it. Same could go for others.

We “know” if that’s the word you want to use, by faith. Whether that starts out with faith in a Creator. Then in a particular holy book. Then faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. Do all humankind who read the NT accept Christ as such? Nope not their faith but it is ours. Then you might have faith in a particular interpretation. Some of us might extend that faith to believing everything another human said. You might choose to believe the Church never needed corrected by Christ. Someone else might believe Christ needs correction along the way so the gates do not prevail.

But to imply Christians leave Christ out is totally unfathomable to me. Christ and His love and mercy and all sorts of things are all things we can agree on. Many Chrisitans share in Communion. Many baptize. Catholics except baptisms performed by non-Roman priests.

Who Wisdom are you speaking of? Those Christians who do not believe every detail as you believe are leaving Christ out? We may not agree on every detail. But Catholics are Christians. Protestants are Christians. All Christians united in Him, making up the body of Christ.

But if you believe believers other then 100%, totally devout, perfectly preacticing Roman Catholics leave Christ out, then we’re going in circles. And nothing more I can say other than peace and all the best to you. And God bless!

Your brother in Christ, CMatt25

 

[Joshua27]

No, He didnt. Jesus never said that the Truth would be corrupted. there are weeds who are deceived by the lies of the devil and stop believing the Truth. the Truth is protected.

by your assumption, no one would be weeds because they would not be at fault since the Truth did not prevail.

I have not made this assumption that there are no weeds. No…my point was there are still weeds (lies; corruption) mix in together everywhere amongst the truth until the harvest…these are Messiah’s words. Based on the parable, the weeds aren’t indistinguishable from the truth, it’s just that weeds have sprouted everywhere the truth is. So if the CC caries the truth, it also caries corruption…until the end harvest.

the CC suffers to this day because she preserves the Truth through the ages.

just think for a moment. the CC suffers mainly because of the claims she makes. Jesus suffered because of the claims He made.

But Matthew 18:3 says [Brackets are mine]:

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children [as opposed to being like adults], you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

“So what are adults as compared to children?” Adults are complicated; they get stuck in their ways; they’re rigid; they’re religous; unable to learn new things or grow any further, while children are completely the opposite; they’re simple; they’re accepting; they’re malleable and completely open to learn new things.

And John 14:6 says:

I [Messiah] am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So by going back to Messiah’s words, isn’t the “Truth”; isn’t the “Kingdom of Heaven” simply the Messiah?

My point is, if the truth is simply the Messiah, why is it assumed only one church (the CC) carries it?

 

[CMatt25]

humnnn…

as far as i know, the holy father has said that he is not so concern about evangelizing protestants any longer. i think unity is impossible.

the problem is that the Church has an obligation with her Lord to speak the Truth to all men. now if we cant make distinction of what is True and what is not. or if the Truth doesnt really matter as long as we get along, we leave Christ out and. because we all can be speaking the Truth when one teaches contrary to the other. how is the people to know what to believe? is the Body and Blood of Christ true in hte Eucharist? is this important to Jesus that we must believe? questions like these must be asked before one decides to just discard it out of the people’s lives. should the Church just accept that protestants teachings are ok for all? it doesnt really matter what one beliefs?
does Jesus cares about His teachings? does Jesus cares about what we believe?

Was the Pope speaking in ex cathedra? I too think unity on EVERY detail is going to be sadly impossible when one faith group thinks they have all truth and won’t come to the table. Catholics sometimes forget their “truth” is simply faith what they believe when you get right down to it. Same could go for others.

We “know” if that’s the word you want to use, by faith. Whether that starts out with faith in a Creator. Then in a particular holy book. Then faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. Do all humankind who read the NT accept Christ as such? Nope not their faith but it is ours. Then you might have faith in a particular interpretation. Some of us might extend that faith to believing everything another human said. You might choose to believe the Church never needed corrected by Christ. Someone else might believe Christ needs correction along the way so the gates do not prevail.

But to imply Christians leave Christ out is totally unfathomable to me. Christ and His love and mercy and all sorts of things are all things we can agree on. Many Christians share in Communion. Many baptize. Catholics except baptisms performed by non-Roman priests.

Who Wisdom are you speaking of? Those Christians who do not believe every detail as you believe are leaving Christ out? We may not agree on every detail. But Catholics are Christians. Protestants are Christians. All Christians united in Him, making up the body of Christ.

But if you believe believers other then 100%, totally devout, perfectly practicing Roman Catholics leave Christ out, then we’re going in circles. And nothing more I can say other than peace and all the best to you. And God bless my friend!

Your brother in Christ, CMatt25

 

[Jars_of_Clay_1]

Sure it is. can you identify the difference between his opinions and the Truth?

His entire posting speaks the truth.

 

[tweetymom]

His entire posting speaks the truth.

Amen

 

[chessmane4e5]

I have not made this assumption that there are no weeds. No…my point was there are still weeds (lies; corruption) mix in together everywhere amongst the truth until the harvest…these are Messiah’s words. Based on the parable, the weeds aren’t indistinguishable from the truth, it’s just that weeds have sprouted everywhere the truth is. So if the CC caries the truth, it also caries corruption…until the end harvest.

Surely there are Catholics who claim to follow Christ but do not. I also see this passage as referring to Christians. Think about how many Christians there are. They all can’t be right. It’s fine if people want to believe that the CC is wrong, I can admit that possibility. But what I also know is everyone can’t be right. In fact, maybe everyone has got it wrong?

But not everyone can be wrong, because Jesus said the Gate of Hell would not prevail against His Church. So what is His Church?

Well, He built it upon Peter, the Rock. The Catholic Church has a direct claim to Peter. For 1000 years, their was One Church. They all believed the same thing (their were some heretics, which were easily shown to be false by the Early Church Fathers).

Now we have many (some say hundreds, some say thousands, it’s a lot) different versions of Christianity. What if some (most or all) of the non-Catholic Christians are the weeds?

Or I suppose the weeds could simply be non-Christians.

 

[CMatt25]

Think about how many Christians there are. They all can’t be right. It’s fine if people want to believe that the CC is wrong, I can admit that possibility. But what I also know is everyone can’t be right. In fact, maybe everyone has got it wrong?

But not everyone can be wrong, because Jesus said the Gate of Hell would not prevail against His Church. So what is His Church?

Well, He built it upon Peter, the Rock. The Catholic Church has a direct claim to Peter. For 1000 years, their was One Church. They all believed the same thing (their were some heretics, which were easily shown to be false by the Early Church Fathers).

I do sincerely doubt the gates of hell will have prevailed when Christ returns. But the rest is all just interpretation or else your belief in another’s interpretation. Only a statement of your belief the Church was built upon Peter and not Peter’s faith. Rome declaring itself the center of the infallible Papacy the moment Christ ascended I guess is your belief. Your faith in your or another’s interpretation of ECFs. Your belief Christ would not need to reform to make certain the gates did not prevail.

It’s fine to belief all those things as part of faith. But it’s faith and belief just as others have their faith and beliefs.

 

[Joshua27]

Surely there are Catholics who claim to follow Christ but do not. I also see this passage as referring to Christians. Think about how many Christians there are. They all can’t be right. It’s fine if people want to believe that the CC is wrong, I can admit that possibility. But what I also know is everyone can’t be right. In fact, maybe everyone has got it wrong?

But not everyone can be wrong, because Jesus said the Gate of Hell would not prevail against His Church. So what is His Church?

Well, He built it upon Peter, the Rock. The Catholic Church has a direct claim to Peter. For 1000 years, their was One Church. They all believed the same thing (their were some heretics, which were easily shown to be false by the Early Church Fathers).

Now we have many (some say hundreds, some say thousands, it’s a lot) different versions of Christianity. What if some (most or all) of the non-Catholic Christians are the weeds?

Or I suppose the weeds could simply be non-Christians.

I get your point, but I want to emphasize that it’s not “all or nothing”; I’m not saying the CC is all wrong, but that if it carries the truth (accuracies) it also carries corruption (inaccuracies), as with many other christian churches.

His church has always been people who believe in Him. He is the truth. So the gates of Hell will not prevail against those who believe in Him. Religions will come and go; building will crumble and be rebuilt anew, but His Church (those who believe in Him), will never be undone.