Catholics and Socailism

[Voco_proTatiano]

Too many people think “Capitalism” is the opposite of “Communism” or “Socialism.”

That’s not true. Capitalism is “The private ownership and operation of the means of production and distribution, for profit, in a competitive environment.” It is an economic system, pure and simple, and has no ideology or government theories. Capitalism can be practiced in monarchies, democracies, or any other form of government that leaves people free to make their own choices.

Capitalism is PRIVATE ownership of certain means of production.
Socialism is PUBLIC ownership of certain means of production.
In the context of PUBLIC vs PRIVATE, then the two philosophies are in direct opposition.
Note, they are philosophies, not political systems.
Capitalism is not free from subjugation. Those who, through no fault of their own, whether through injury, deformity, or mental incapacity, are unable to match the requirements to survive in a capitalist environment know all about subjugation.

Socialism, and Communism, while rejecting private ownership to a varying degrees, also add a theory of government, an ideology. And because the government must have power to control all property, the government must be all-powerful, and the people must be subjugated to the state.

Yes there is a problem in trying to implement socialist philosophy in a political system. Indeed the biggest problem with socialism is capitalism. There are more selfish people in the world than there are generous. So measures need to be taken to control avarice.
There is a similar problem with capitalism, and that is socialism. That is why capitalist entities take such draconian measures to crush socialist institutions, such as trade unions.

That is why Socialist governments are so restrictive and bureaucratic, and why Communist governments are dictatorships.

Yes, stern government is needed to control public avarice, especially when that avarice is being encouraged by predator nations.

And that is also why socialism and communist tend to be atheistic – they cannot tolerate people believing in a higher power.

Not entirely true. The church, in her condemnation of the atheism of Marx, failed to remind the people that the social message was not a million mile from Our Lord’s teachings:
Give us each day our daily bread : Unto each according to his needs.
And bring us not to the test : From each according to his abilities.
The early Christians certainly understood these words thus, as is witnessed by Luke in his second book.

Yes Our Lord did say the worker was worthy of his hire, but actually, the verb was subjunctive, so you should read:
The worker (should) be worthy of his hire.

Much is said of giving your surplus to the poor.
Remember how he mocked the farmer who instead built a bigger barn.
How a rich man compares poorly with a camel, and how another one paid a terrible price for his lack of compassion.
Socialism and capitalism have their place.
Neither one functions correctly on its own.
A degree of socialism is needed to save the inadequate from rampant capitalism, and a degree of capitalism is needed to encourage the workers to be diligent.

There can be no doubt that the Kingdom of G_d which Our Lord said was already among us, was and is, an exercise in social engineering, which was, and is based upon love and compassion, and denigrated greed.
Most of us have failed to meet this mark.
It is a very difficult mark to meet.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Capitalism is PRIVATE ownership of certain means of production.
Socialism is PUBLIC ownership of certain means of production.
In the context of PUBLIC vs PRIVATE, then the two philosophies are in direct opposition.
Note, they are philosophies, not political systems.

Capitalism is an economic system, not a philosophy, nor a political system.

Socialism is a political system, and the proof is the words I bolded in your original post.

Capitalism is not free from subjugation. Those who, through no fault of their own, whether through injury, deformity, or mental incapacity, are unable to match the requirements to survive in a capitalist environment know all about subjugation.

People who are unable to support themselves must be supported by others – but that should be through voluntary charity. That is one of the Church’s great missions

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Capitalism is an economic system, not a philosophy, nor a political system.

Socialism is a political system, and the proof is the words I bolded in your original post.

-ism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ism

The suffix -ism denotes a distinctive system of beliefs, myth, doctrine or theory that guides a social movement, institution, class or group. For example, baptize (literally derived from “to dip”) becomes “baptism,” a distinctive system of cleansing in water for the forgiveness of sins[1]. It is taken from the Greek suffix -ismos, Latin -ismus, and Old French -isme, that forms nouns from verbal stems. Greek baptismos “immersion”, for example, is derived from baptizein, a Greek verb meaning “to immerse”. Its usage has since been extended to signify the ideology or philosophy surrounding the element to which the suffix is added.

A philosopy: QED.

People who are unable to support themselves must be supported by others – but that should be through voluntary charity. That is one of the Church’s great missions

This is one of the Church’s great missions true, but it was not from voluntary contributions, it was from a form of VAT, levied upon all who were members of the Church, at a rate of 10%.
Anyone who was not a member of the Church was at best a heretic, or at worst, a Jew or a heathen, and subject to powerful social pressure, even the burning of witches.
Yes, the early Church did operate a mandatary social fund.
That is an aspect of socialist philosophy.
For “Early” read pre-reformation.

 

[vern_humphrey]

-ism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ism

A philosopy: QED.

This is one of the Church’s great missions true, but it was not from voluntary contributions, it was from a form of VAT, levied upon all who were members of the Church, at a rate of 10%.

A VAT? Where do you find that in the scripture or early Church fathers?

-Anyone who was not a member of the Church was at best a heretic, or at worst, a Jew or a heathen, and subject to powerful social pressure, even the burning of witches.

You have to be kidding me.

-Yes, the early Church did operate a mandatary social fund.
That is an aspect of socialist philosophy.
For “Early” read pre-reformation.

Now all you have to do is prove it.

 

[bilop]

Yes, the early Church did operate a mandatary social fund.
That is an aspect of socialist philosophy.
For “Early” read pre-reformation.

That’s incorrect. A mandatory tithe (I’m not sure how mandatory it was) is nothing like socialism. It is a tax to support the Church and it’s efforts.

Socialism is public ownership of the means of production.

That 10% covered all schools, hospitals, and aid to the poor.

I wish we could get that deal today, instead of the 40% government takes.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

That’s incorrect. A mandatory tithe (I’m not sure how mandatory it was) is nothing like socialism. It is a tax to support the Church and it’s efforts.

Socialism is public ownership of the means of production.

That 10% covered all schools, hospitals, and aid to the poor.

I wish we could get that deal today, instead of the 40% government takes.

God Bless

Only 40%? You must live in tax heaven!

Add in 15.3% FICA tax (including the “employer’s contribution” – which you earn), sales tax (7 to 9% in most places) and state income tax, gasoline tax, propterty tax, and so on and you wind up with 75 to 80%.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

-ism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/-ism

A philosopy: QED.
Now there’s sophistry for you! Add -ism to anything and turn it into " a distinctive system of beliefs, myth, doctrine or theory that guides a social movement, institution, class or group."

No wonder Wikipedia has such a bad reputation.

A VAT? Where do you find that in the scripture or early Church fathers?

Sorry, European.
Value Added Tax.
A tax on the increase of wealth or value.
The Tythe was imposed on the results of production.
If you harvested ten acres, one acre went to the Church.
If the value of your property increased by 10% in one year, you paid 1% of its value to the Church.

You have to be kidding me.

And what planet do you come from?

Now all you have to do is prove it.

You actually require proof of history???

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

That’s incorrect. A mandatory tithe (I’m not sure how mandatory it was) is nothing like socialism. It is a tax to support the Church and it’s efforts.

Socialism is public ownership of the means of production.

That 10% covered all schools, hospitals, and aid to the poor.

I wish we could get that deal today, instead of the 40% government takes.

God Bless

Socialism is a philosophy followed by socialist governments, to some degree or other.
Very few socialist governments implemented socialist ideals in entirety, and those that endeavoured the hardest to implement the most, failed the most.
Likewise capitalist governments.
Both forms of government implement their nominal philosophies to a limited degree.
The fact that your government excises 40%, indicates that it is following the socialist ideal to the extent of 40%.
Thus in simplicity, it is capitalist/socialist in the ratio 60/40.
So it is principally capitalist, but has a degree of socialism in place to protect the inadequate, who would in a purely capitalistic state, die of cold or starvation.
Likewise, socialist governments find that if they eliminate capitalism entirely, then therev is no motivation of the population as a whole, and everything becomes deeply inefficient.
The best and most effective systems seem to hover about the 50/50 mark.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Sorry, European.
Value Added Tax.
A tax on the increase of wealth or value.
The Tythe was imposed on the results of production.
If you harvested ten acres, one acre went to the Church.
If the value of your property increased by 10% in one year, you paid 1% of its value to the Church.

A tythe was not a VAT. Nor was everyone required **by law **to tythe.

And what planet do you come from?You actually require proof of history???

Yes. And if you think a tythe was a VAT, clearly you aren’t a man who can provide it.

 

[cynic]

Capitalism is an economic system, not a philosophy, nor a political system.

But those who advocate unrestrained capitalism ussually have quite a strong ideology.

 

[vern_humphrey]

But those who advocate unrestrained capitalism ussually have quite a strong ideology.

Which is?

 

[bilop]

Only 40%? You must live in tax heaven!

Add in 15.3% FICA tax (including the “employer’s contribution” – which you earn), sales tax (7 to 9% in most places) and state income tax, gasoline tax, propterty tax, and so on and you wind up with 75 to 80%.

Well, in the U.S., total goverment spending is aroung 40% of GDP. 20% federal, 20% state and local.

The marginal rate may be higher or lower, depending on income, and where you live.

But, you can’t just add up the tax rates, b/c certain taxes (state & local income, property, some sales taxes) are deductible from federal income tax. Other (FICA, is only up to a certain income level).

I’d guess I propably pay right around 35%.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well, in the U.S., total goverment spending is aroung 40% of GDP. 20% federal, 20% state and local.

The marginal rate may be higher or lower, depending on income, and where you live.

But, you can’t just add up the tax rates, b/c certain taxes (state & local income, property, some sales taxes) are deductible from federal income tax. Other (FICA, is only up to a certain income level).

I’d guess I propably pay right around 35%.

God Bless

God bless ya’.

But I save enough each year to buy a new tractor – and every year, the government takes it from me.

If I were saving to buy an new truck, I can’t imagine how much they would take!

 

[bilop]

God bless ya’.

But I save enough each year to buy a new tractor – and every year, the government takes it from me.

If I were saving to buy an new truck, I can’t imagine how much they would take!

Don’t worry, I pay a TON of taxes. My property tax alone is $14G

Seriously, I’d get a good accountant.

If you are a farmer, even part time, have you incorporated your farm?

There are huge advantages to being an LLC or an S Corp.

For three years, I had my own consulting business; I made about 30% less than I do now, but I took home more.

God Bless

 

[vern_humphrey]

Don’t worry, I pay a TON of taxes. My property tax alone is $14G

Seriously, I’d get a good accountant.

If you are a farmer, even part time, have you incorporated your farm?

There are huge advantages to being an LLC or an S Corp.

For three years, I had my own consulting business; I made about 30% less than I do now, but I took home more.

God Bless

I tried eveything – and none of it works. Now, if I got rid of the horses, and simply bought and sold cattle, it might work.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

A tythe was not a VAT. Nor was everyone required **by law **to tythe.

Yes. And if you think a tythe was a VAT, clearly you aren’t a man who can provide it.

Take not my word:
encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Tythe

tithe

Contribution of a tenth of one’s income for religious purposes. The practice of tithing was established in the Hebrew scriptures and was adopted by the Western Christian church. It was enjoined by eccesiastical law from the 6th century and enforced in Europe by secular law from the 8th century. After the Reformation, tithes continued to be imposed for the benefit of both the Protestant and Roman Catholic churches. Tithes were eventually repealed in France (1789), Ireland (1871), Italy (1887), and England (1936). In Germany support for churches is collected through the personal income tax and distributed according to the individual’s religious affiliation. Tithing was never part of U.S. law, but members of certain churches (e.g., the Mormons) are required to tithe, and members of other churches may tithe voluntarily. Tithing was never accepted by the Eastern Orthodox churches.

For more information on tithe, visit Britannica.com. Britannica Concise Encyclopedia. Copyright © 1994-2008 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.

tithe

Formerly, payment exacted from the inhabitants of a parish for the maintenance of the church and its incumbent; some religious groups continue the practice by giving 10% of members’ incomes to charity.

It was originally the grant of a tenth of all agricultural produce made to priests in Hebrew society. In the Middle Ages the tithe was adopted as a tax in kind paid to the local parish church, usually for the support of the incumbent, and stored in a special tithe barn; as such, it survived into contemporary times in Europe and Britain. In Protestant countries, these payments were often appropriated by lay landlords.

This article is © Research Machines plc 2004. All rights reserved. Helicon Publishing is a division of Research Machines plc.

So do you still imagine that tything was voluntary???
English and American references given.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Take not my word:
encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Tythe

First of all, you are wrong to call it a VAT.

Secondly, you are talking about feudal rents. The church lands did indeed generate revenue.

Third, democratic countries have generally separated themselves from religious contributions.

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

First of all, you are wrong to call it a VAT.

Secondly, you are talking about feudal rents. The church lands did indeed generate revenue.

Third, democratic countries have generally separated themselves from religious contributions.

You are picking on details, and ignoring the principle.
You spit out the gnat while you swallow the camel.

The tax was mandatory.
It had the backing of CIVIL LAW.
It was based upon PROFIT more than upon Capital.
Though it was not a true VAT, it had a similar essence.

The tax, as well as being for provision of the encumbant, was also for the provision of hospitals, assylums, and other social provisions.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You are picking on details, and ignoring the principle.
You spit out the gnat while you swallow the camel.

No, you are straining for justification for a bogus claim.

The tax was mandatory.
It had the backing of CIVIL LAW.
It was based upon PROFIT more than upon Capital.
Though it was not a true VAT, it had a similar essence.

No, it did not – and it was based on feudal fees.

The tax, as well as being for provision of the encumbant, was also for the provision of hospitals, assylums, and other social provisions.

And that was in the tax law? Got a copy you can post here?

 

[Voco_proTatiano]

Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano:
You are picking on details, and ignoring the principle.
You spit out the gnat while you swallow the camel.

No! You invert history. Feus are based upon tythes, not VV.

And that was in the tax law? Got a copy you can post here?

I gave you two public and authoritative definitions, one English, the other American.
The words were plain.
There is none so blind as who will not see.

Originally Posted by Voco proTatiano:
Take not my word:
encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Tythe