Catholics and the 5 fold ministry

[ChestnutTree]

When I was catholic I never heard or read if the church believed in the five fold ministry; Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher as scriptures teaches?

As you know, protestants of the pentecostal/evangelical church believe that these gifts are still present today in the church. I used to belong to a church that believed and taught the 5 fold ministry, but I was never convinced that they are still present today. I believe that they were specifically meant for a specific time and purpose. Expressing my opinions caused problems for me.

I asked a Priest friend of my mom and he told me that the church suppressed it very early because of abuses committed.

Do you guys know where can I go to learn more about this topic from catholic perspective.

Hank

 

[Tybourne]

Hi Hank

On the Prophetic ministry, I recommend the soon-to-be Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman’s Lectures on the Prophetical Office of the Church, which is best read with the preface he wrote later as a Catholic.

Hope this leads somewhere for you.

Best.

 

[peary]

When I was catholic I never heard or read if the church believed in the five fold ministry; Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher as scriptures teaches?

As you know, protestants of the pentecostal/evangelical church believe that these gifts are still present today in the church. I used to belong to a church that believed and taught the 5 fold ministry, but I was never convinced that they are still present today. I believe that they were specifically meant for a specific time and purpose. Expressing my opinions caused problems for me.

I asked a Priest friend of my mom and he told me that the church suppressed it very early because of abuses committed.

Do you guys know where can I go to learn more about this topic from catholic perspective.

Hank

There is one ministry that protestantism rejects: that of Priesthood. Without the priesthood, all other ministries will fail. Why? Because it is only the priest who brings the Body of Christ to us in the Eucharist.

 

[CDNowak]

When I was catholic I never heard or read if the church believed in the five fold ministry; Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher as scriptures teaches?

As you know, protestants of the pentecostal/evangelical church believe that these gifts are still present today in the church. I used to belong to a church that believed and taught the 5 fold ministry, but I was never convinced that they are still present today. I believe that they were specifically meant for a specific time and purpose. Expressing my opinions caused problems for me.

I asked a Priest friend of my mom and he told me that the church suppressed it very early because of abuses committed.

Do you guys know where can I go to learn more about this topic from catholic perspective.

Hank

It depends what exactly is meant by ministry in this context.

The Catholic Church (and the Orthodox and a *few *others) can show that their bishops are successors to the Apostles.

These bishops are pastors of their diocese, and there are also local pastors (the priests in their parishes).

There are those who teach the faith at various levels, from catechists in the parish to theologians in the universities and seminaries.

All Christians, to some degree, are called to be evangelists, the priests primarily to the laity and the laity to the world.

The Church does not presume to be able to appoint prophets, but recognizes that they may still exist (but at the same time, out of caution, She does not require belief in the messages of alleged prophets and visionaries).

The Church focuses more on the ministry of Christ as Priest, Prophet, and King, prefigured in the OT and fulfilled in Jesus.

 

[littlequestion]

All Christians, to some degree, are called to be evangelists, the priests primarily to the laity and the laity to the world.

Our evangelism not to be confused with apologetics or verbal persuasion. Our witness to be our lives and our obedience, answering honestly to those who ask about our faith but not trapping them into the questions.

“Apologetics” is the proper domain of especially educated Catholics, not necessarily priests. Preacher-style evangelism most definitely the proper domain of priests.

IMHO.

 

[Tybourne]

The Church does not presume to be able to appoint prophets, but recognizes that they may still exist (but at the same time, out of caution, She does not require belief in the messages of alleged prophets and visionaries)

With respect, on the contrary, I believe the Church’s teaching is that the religious orders fulfil the ministry of prophecy by making the Holy Spirit known through the specific charism of their founder.

Let’s take the two orders I know best as examples, the Benedictines and the Carmelites. The biography/hagiography of St Benedict by St Gregory the Great clearly links the Father of Monasticism with Elijah (e.g. both are fed in the desert by ravens). The Carmelites draw even closer links with Elijah, tracing their genealogy back to the ‘sons’ of that prophet.

The religious are the real prophets and true theologians of the Catholic Church, because like their forbears in the Old Covenant, they witness (by living out their vows) to the truth that the Spirit is speaking to the Church. I became a Catholic on the issue of authority (conforming to Christ’s kingly office) but one of the reasons I remain so nourished by Mother Church is because of the prophetic flame that’s kept alive in her through the charisms of the orders (I am not a ‘Charismatic’ with a capital C, however).

 

[littlequestion]

With respect, on the contrary, I believe the Church’s teaching is that the religious orders fulfil the ministry of prophecy by making the Holy Spirit known through the specific charism of their founder.

I think this is an interesting point. We see the prophets after the fact, as Scripture advises us: “if any claim to be a prophet, watch and see if their prophesy comes true.” (Where is that? In Paul?)

We differ from the Protestants in our continuing active relationship with the Saints over time. We really see our prophets only in retrospect.

It is an interesting thing to contemplate, especially what it tells us about our sense of earth-bound time compared to the Saints’ sense of eternity, which many of them seem to have had during their earthly lives. Ste Therese, for example, was extremely conscious of work she planned to do after dying as a Saint.

 

[CDNowak]

With respect, on the contrary, I believe the Church’s teaching is that the religious orders fulfil the ministry of prophecy by making the Holy Spirit known through the specific charism of their founder.

Let’s take the two orders I know best as examples, the Benedictines and the Carmelites. The biography/hagiography of St Benedict by St Gregory the Great clearly links the Father of Monasticism with Elijah (e.g. both are fed in the desert by ravens). The Carmelites draw even closer links with Elijah, tracing their genealogy back to the ‘sons’ of that prophet.

The religious are the real prophets and true theologians of the Catholic Church, because like their forbears in the Old Covenant, they witness (by living out their vows) to the truth that the Spirit is speaking to the Church. I became a Catholic on the issue of authority (conforming to Christ’s kingly office) but one of the reasons I remain so nourished by Mother Church is because of the prophetic flame that’s kept alive in her through the charisms of the orders (I am not a ‘Charismatic’ with a capital C, however).

They are not mutually exclusive, and you are correct that the Church does consider this ordinary prophesy (if I may borrow the usage from infallibility) and my posting refers merely to the extra-ordinary prophesy.

As littlequestion on evangelism, while it does not necessarily mean apologetics, we are called to be able to give answer for our beliefs (paraphrasing Paul), which can include more of a direct verbal witness.

 

[Tybourne]

We really see our prophets only in retrospect.

Absolutely! Our greatest prophets are the Doctors of the Church because they definitively teach us the proper interpretation of Scripture through their theology. In this regard, Venerable John Henry Newman has been described as the Father (or, we might say, Prophet) of Vatican II. He was extraordinarily prescient in his time and remains amazingly relevant in his teaching. He encountered and lived through all the major forms of Christianity (evangelical protestant, liberal protestant, Orthodox (through his in-depth study of the Greek Fathers) and Catholic) summing them all up in his life and teaching. A true prophet as well as a true pastor and priest.

 

[Frbrendan]

When I was catholic I never heard or read if the church believed in the five fold ministry; Apostle, Prophet, Evangelist, Pastor, and Teacher as scriptures teaches?

As you know, protestants of the pentecostal/evangelical church believe that these gifts are still present today in the church. I used to belong to a church that believed and taught the 5 fold ministry, but I was never convinced that they are still present today. I believe that they were specifically meant for a specific time and purpose. Expressing my opinions caused problems for me.

I asked a Priest friend of my mom and he told me that the church suppressed it very early because of abuses committed.

Do you guys know where can I go to learn more about this topic from catholic perspective.

Hank

First of all, these ministries are indeed alive and living in the traditional Apostolic Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, etc.)

The Bishop, being the successor of the Apostle, is also the head of the other ministries. Even if he himself does not exercise those gifts, they flow from him, to the priests, deacons, religious and lay people (Pastor, Teacher, Prophet, and Evangelist). All of these gifts are subject to the Apostle (Bishop), who is chief of all, just as they were in the 1st century.

For instance, St. Francis was a prophet. St.Teresa of Avila was a prophet. There are prophets in today’s Church as well. All of the laity are called to evangelism, and some flow in that ministry. The simple parish priest is pastor, and the Deacons are teachers.

 

[Tybourne]

The Bishop, being the successor of the Apostle, is also the head of the other ministries. Even if he himself does not exercise those gifts, they flow from him, to the priests, deacons, religious and lay people (Pastor, Teacher, Prophet, and Evangelist).

That’s very cogent and convincing, thanks. It’s a bit of a shock, as a lay person, to realize that I’m supposed to be carrying out the ministry of Evangelist! How? Catholics believe, above all, in evangelism of culture and evangelism ***through ***culture. Therefore, I can fulfil this ministry most fully by making my family a true Domestic Church and inviting non-Christians in to “taste and see that the Lord is good” (easier said than done ) and then making my professional work and my involvement in social and political life conform to the Gospel. Within the lay state, there may be room for more direct evangelism too, such as we see in the Legion of Mary
. How am I doing so far?

Now, I’d like to try something out on you all. In her manifold and marvellous book Culture and the Thomist tradition: After Vatican II (2003), Tracy Rowland outlines a scheme of Christian formation that links the human faculties, with the Persons of the Holy Trinity, with a theological virtue that fulfils and completes that faculty through participation in a transcendental reality that is a property of God, as source of Being:

Faculty Person Virtue Transcendental

---

memory Father hope The Beautiful

understanding Son faith The True

will Spirit love The Good

Is it stretching this scheme too far to also include the ministries and states of life:

Faculty Person Virtue Transcendental Ministry State

---

memory Father hope The Beautiful Apostle Pastor Priest

understanding Son faith The True Prophet Religious

will Spirit love The Good Evangelist/ King Lay?

We all participate in all three offices of Christ through our Baptism, but the ordained faithful ‘specialize’ as it were in the priestly office, the religious specialize in the prophetic office and the laity specialize in the kingly office (the ‘munus regale’), which is one of service through cultural evangelization, of assisting in the Kingdom coming to birth in the world. What do you think?

 

[CDNowak]

That’s very cogent and convincing, thanks. It’s a bit of a shock, as a lay person, to realize that I’m supposed to be carrying out the ministry of Evangelist! How? Catholics believe, above all in evangelism of culture and evangelism through culture. Therefore, I can fulfil this ministry most fully, by making my family a true Domestic Church and inviting non-Christians in to “taste and see that the Lord is good” (easier said than done ) and then making my profession and my involvement in social and political life conform to the Gospel. Within the lay state, there may be room for more direct evangelism too, such as we see in the Legion of Mary
. How am I doing so far?

Sounds good!

I do think that stretching the metaphor is a bit much, but that may just be me.

 

[Frbrendan]

That’s very cogent and convincing, thanks. How am I doing so far?

So far, very good!

Now, I’d like to try something out on you all. In her manifold and marvellous book Culture and the Thomist tradition: After Vatican II (2003), Tracy Rowland outlines a scheme of Christian formation that links the human faculties, with the Persons of the Holy Trinity, with a theological virtue that fulfils and completes that faculty through participation in a transcendental reality that is a property of God, as source of Being:

Faculty Person Virtue Transcendental

---

memory Father hope The Beautiful

understanding Son faith The True

will Spirit love The Good

Is it stretching this scheme too far to also include the ministries and states of life:

Faculty Person Virtue Transcendental Ministry State

---

memory Father hope The Beautiful Apostle Pastor Priest

understanding Son faith The True Prophet Religious

will Spirit love The Good Evangelist/ King Lay?

We all participate in all three offices of Christ through our Baptism, but the ordained faithful ‘specialize’ as it were in the priestly office, the religious specialize in the prophetic office and the laity specialize in the kingly office (the ‘munus regale’), which is one of service through cultural evangelization, of assisting in the Kingdom coming to birth in the world. What do you think?

I’ve never read Culture and the Thomist tradition: After Vatican II, so I don’t quite know what it says, but we all participate in the 3-fold ministry of Christ, as He is Priest, Prophet, and King. So the table above is kind of skewed. Also, God is love. All three Persons of the Trinity.

You are called to be the priest of your home Church, as you participate there. You are called to be the prophet in your professional and social life, pointing the way to Jesus through your life. Finally, you are called to be king over the devil and his ranks.

The same holds true for everyone, from the Pope down to this unhappy sinner. All are called to live out the 3-fold ministry of Christ in our own life.