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I’m glad to read that Catholics dont use the bible / holy scriptures as an idol because an idol is something that comes between you and God, something that obscures your vision. So the bible cant be used as such. It is something that will direct you to God.
An idol is something like a statue of Christ or Mary in a church that is bowed to, or kissed like some statues have been, sometimes until a foot falls of it. An idol can be something like money and things but not the scriptures.
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
I’m glad to read that Catholics dont use the bible / holy scriptures as an idol because an idol is something that comes between you and God, something that obscures your vision. So the bible cant be used as such. It is something that will direct you to God.
** Hi ads, how are you?
An Idol is a “False god” It is a man made object a “creation” God is the “Creator” He wasn’t created! **
An idol is something like a statue of Christ or Mary in a church that is bowed to, or kissed like some statues have been, sometimes until a foot falls of it. An idol can be something like money and things but not the scriptures
**
You would have been better off saying In My Opinion, then I wouldn’t have to call you a liar! freesmileys.org/smileys/char048.gif**You do realize that you just told a whopper, don’t you?
To make an item to be worshiped as a god is an idol! If people did in fact love a statue of Mary or Jesus more then they do God then it would be in fact an graven image! However, I have never met a Catholic that loved anything more then they did God almighty! If we bow to a statue of Christ or Mary in a church, or kiss or rub a foot until it falls off, it isn’t worship. It is still just a statue, or painting! They aren’t “Graven Images” they are not gods!
The Bible, specifically the Old Testament says, "Thou shaft have no “graven images” (Exodus 20:4). So, the question is, do these icons, paintings and statues portraying Christ, His Mother, the saints, and special biblical events, come under the category of “graven images”? The history of icons and of their use in the church is not only fascinating but instructive.
They are no new thing. Nor were they invented by an apostate medieval Church. The use of representations for instruction and as aids to piety goes back to the earliest centuries of the Church, and likely they were there in some form from the very beginning. Certainly we know that even in legal-minded Israel, paintings and other artistic representations used to help the people remember spiritual truth were not at all unknown. In both the tabernacle and the later temples there were images used, especially of the cherubim. And a recently unearthed synagogue of the last few centuries before Christ has paintings of biblical scenes on its walls.
Now, was this done contrary to the command of God? Take a look at Exodus 26:1. In God’s commands to Moses concerning the tabernacle, given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction: “Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains of fine twisted linen and blue and purple and scarlet; you shall make them with cherubim, the work of a skillful workman.” A similar command with respect to the Ark of the Covenant instructed Moses to have two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat. God said, “And there I will meet with you; and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak to you about all that I will give you in commandment for the sons of Israel” (Exodus 25:22).
Here are images directly connected with the presence of God, and even “commanded” by Him. From the very earliest years of the Church, Christians used such symbols as the cross, the fish, the peacock, the shepherd, and the dove. And early Christian tombs and catacombs bear paintings which are representations of biblical scenes. For example, the fourth century church historian Eusebius tells us that outside the house of the woman in the Gospels with a hemorrhage cured by Christ was “a bronze statue of a woman, resting on one knee and resembling a suppliant with arms outstretched. Facing this was another of the same material, an upright figure of a man with a double cloak draped neatly over his shoulders and his hand stretched out to the woman . . . .” Eusebius goes on to say, “This statue, which was said to resemble the features of Jesus, was still there in my own time, so that I saw it with my own eyes” (Church History, Book 7, Chapter 18). He tells us further that portraits of the Savior and of Peter and Paul had been preserved, and that he had examined these with his own eyes as well. In that very same century the famous bishop and theologian,
Saint Gregory of Nyssa, tells of being deeply moved by an icon of the sacrifice of Isaac: “I have seen a painted representation of this passion, and have never passed by without shedding tears, for art brings the story vividly to the eyes.” His friend and contemporary, Saint Gregory Nazianzen, writes of the persecution of Christians by the cruel Emperor Julian the Apostate: “The images venerated in public places still bear scars of that plague.” The witness of many other great early Church writers bears out the same truth. Icons were known and venerated in the earliest centuries of the Church. All right. So the early Church made and possessed images-or icons, as we call them in a transliteration of the Greek word for images. And the Christian faithful honored or venerated them. But does this fit with the biblical warning concerning images?
The command in question is from the Ten Commandments: “Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God” (Exodus 20:3-5). Note that the context shows that the term “graven image” is used to refer to an idol-an image created to be worshipped as a god. Doesn’t this mean there are in the Bible two classifications of images-true images and false images? Appropriate images and inappropriate images. Statues and idols?
God Bless!
.
R
Realcatholicgk
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** Hi Gottle
My early Christmas present to you! **
freesmileys.org/smileys/violent088.gif **
< Protestant101???
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Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or , ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE or that is in the EARTH BENEATH, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
That says it all i think, it doesnt matter what u think of the statue, you are not to bow down to it. In this act you are showing reverence to it, then he says not serve them after that.
Ive seen people kneeling and praying in a half circle around a statue of Mary.
If God said not to do this then that should be good enough for Gods people. If its such an innocent thing and you dont need to have them there, then why have them at all.
I have also had a dear friend in hospital in a bad way and she was clinging to a statue of Mary and would not let it go for anything because she was so sick. now if the people of the Catholic faith were treating a statue as an idol like this, wouldnt it be better to get rid of them all together, and not have people do this.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
If only… 
What is to stop the Bible becoming an idol ? AFAIK - nothing. It shouldn’t be, but that does not mean it cannot function as one: the ideas we find in it can lead to deeply unChristian behaviour; holy wars, slavery, persecution, can be, & have been, justified by it. Nothing is so evil as the corruption of what is very good.
Nothing in creation - ideas, desires, the works of our hands, money, comfort, security, our appetites, God’s other gifts to us - is exempt from the danger of being a snare and a delusion to us: If the Church or the Saints can function as idols because of human sinfulness, why not the Bible ? If we say, of anything, “This cannot become an idol”, we are self-disarmed against the danger that it can be. Gideon’s ephod became a snare - so did the brazen serpent destroyed by Hezekiah. So can the Bible be. 
Awareness of the danger is a guard against it.FWIW - kissing statues & bowing to them is not of itself idolatry. It can be - but if Christians do it, the assumption has to be that they know what they are doing, & donot intend to honour the plaster, wood or metal of which the statue is made, but the person whom it represents. For the honour given to the visible object is directed to its invisible prototype - just as the love expressed by a kiss between persons, is given not to skin cells, flesh or bone or blood, but to the person whose body is made of these things. And human persons, who are created beings, are themselves lovable only because of God.
So the veneration of the holy images & statues is entirely free of blame in itself - we are not idolaters.
G
Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Hi Gottle
**My early Christmas present to you! **
freesmileys.org/smileys/violent088.gif
< Protestant101???
R
Realcatholicgk
Guest
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or , ANY LIKENESS OF ANY THING THAT IS IN HEAVEN ABOVE or that is in the EARTH BENEATH, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 THOU SHALT NOT BOW DOWN THYSELF TO THEM, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
That says it all i think,
Actually I don’t think that you actually think! You just say things and assume your saying them makes them true. Let me type slower maybe that will help you comprehend what is written. OK? I promise, this time, I will try not to use to many big words . They may have confused you. if so I apologize!
it doesnt matter what u think of the statue,
**Doesn’t It? Look around your house, do you not have any “statues” or pictures in your home? It doesn’t matter what you think of them ~ They are “idols”! Now, wasn’t that a stupid thing for me to say? Does that explain what I think of your statement as well? I sent you teaching from Church authorities, you give me your personal opinion! You twist God’s words to prove your petty point! How cute is that!You are so precious, Bless your heart!
**
you are not to bow down to it. In this act you are showing reverence to it,
Reverence is not worship! I actually have “oriental” relatives, When I greet them, I am “required” to bow and touch my head down to the ground. The young children are required to do the same for me as their elder. That my friend is call respect, reverance it is NOT CALLED WORSHIP! God did not forbid respect.Honor your Father and Mother means to “Honor your elders!” Read some books without pictures some times! The will make your agruments seem smarter.
then he says not serve them after that.
Ive seen people kneeling and praying in a half circle around a statue of Mary.
I help carry one in possession at church last month. A icon, not a Idol of Mary. It was a beautiful devotion to Jesus’ Mother. I am sure He was pleased!
If God said not to do this then that should be good enough for Gods people. If its such an innocent thing and you dont need to have them there, then why have them at all.
Typed real slowly: God did not say not to do this. And you lying and saying that He did, doesn’t make it any more true! What He did saye was not to “worship” graven images.
Do not put words in God’s mouth!Have you no fear for your eternal soul???
A graven image is a man made “god”. That is good enough for God’s people!
**I realize that an analogy isn’t the same thing as being the same thing. But lets try one: **If the civilian authorities passed a law saying: “No sex in public” and you kissed your child goodbye on your front step as you left your house, would you be breaking that law? In your eyes, I guess so! But that isn’t what the law would be prohibiting. A sign of affection would be allowed, If the authorities didn’t say it wasn’t allowed. SEX wouldn’t be allowed in public. A judge would decide, if you were charged. Since God is “our” judge, and I am sure that you have at least one statue or picture of “something” in your house ~ do not be a hyproctic! An analogy isn’t the same thing as being the same thing. Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye."Matthew 7:1-5. Clearly, Jesus condemns hypocritical judgment. It won’t help if you say you don’t worship the statues or pictures in your house, we told you we don’t worship the ones in God’s house! Never twist God’ words to say what you desire them to say! Study, learn and trust that the Catholic church, guided by the Holy Spirit, would not allow a commandment to be broken.
I have also had a dear friend in hospital in a bad way and she was clinging to a statue of Mary and would not let it go for anything because she was so sick. now if the people of the Catholic faith were treating a statue as an idol like this, wouldnt it be better to get rid of them all together, and not have people do this.
**I would tell you what it would be better to get rid of, but I might hurt your feelings. I wouldn’t want to do that. People might say I was being “un” christ like even though Jesus Himself would show rightist anger at times. I think if you insulted His Mother in person, He might even slap you, or better yet whip you! **
**Do you want something to really worry you? Read: John 6:53-55 Hopefully it will scare the “hell” out of you and open your eyes to Jesus’ real teachings and church!**
**Someone once told me "**It is better to be quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" I agree with him, don’t you?
God Bless
P
Protestant101
Guest
Like I said; I will answer my own time and my own way. I am just repeating what you said.
The fact that you have more than once bragged about your “credentials” tells that story. But believe me, no “obligation” is felt.
Sometimes the reason I ask is because I know it’s not there. Catholics need to face this fact.You continuously request “official Catholic teachings” in just about every post you make. Read the Catechism of the Catholic Church…many of your questions will be answered OFFICIALLY!!
Yes, you stated these texts in the light of theistic evolution, which is what your church teaches
You only fiddle with your “interpretation,” to make the text fit into theistic evolution, as does your Church
Ah, poor victim! being persecuted by the big bad Protestant for “quoting scripture.”
Like it or not, you can’t credibly deny that what you are saying here within your 6 questions does indeed follow almost word for word what Ratzlaff and other anti-Adventists have in their books and websites.
Patrick; your Popes have in recent years confirmed that evolution is fact. Your 6 questions are in reality not questions. They are statements about the official Catholic teaching; making sport of the authority of scripture in Genesis, making it say what the Catholic Church wants to teach, but not what the Scripture actually means.
If God says there was light during the first three days, then there was. Thats good enough for me.
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
This text speaks of day one, throwing a little lump of coal into your “question” #1.
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RealChatholicgk:
Wow, finnished being rude yet, arnt you quite the charmer/Christian.
P
Patrick_Murebil
Guest
I wonder what it is in your psyche that takes what I say regarding my past as a SDA as bragging?
I cannot change my past, it is what it is. If I said I was one of the greatest SDAs to ever live, then that would be bragging. But I fail to see how relating what I was at a summary level is bragging.
I quoted what those texts said in full and asked you how you reconcile them with your interpretation that they are 7 literal 24 hour days.
Until you provide documentation of what Canright, Ratzlaff, and other anti-Adventists say in their books and websites; I can and I do deny that my questions follow their questions almost word for word, because I am unaware of what you refer to says. So please show me, and everyone reading this…just a link or two to URLs from anti-Adventist websites that show these questions almost word for word and that should suffice.
And if it turns out that my questions are similar to what others have asked regarding SDA beliefs, I still deny that I took my questions from those books or sites. These seem like pretty self evident questions.
That is a completely false and erroneous statement that you make and completely ignorant of the facts.
I don’t think anyone has confirmed that evolution is fact.
They are questions, which I asked you and anyone else who is willing to answer them…from the Sacred Scriptures.
Then please feel free to shovel all the coal on to my questions and answer them.
God bless all!!!
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Thankyou for answering in a high standerd of Christian courtecy, its a pleasent change.If only…
Nothing in creation - ideas, desires, the works of our hands, money, comfort, security, our appetites, God’s other gifts to us - is exempt from the danger of being a snare and a delusion to us: If the Church or the Saints can function as idols because of human sinfulness, why not the Bible ? If we say, of anything, “This cannot become an idol”, we are self-disarmed against the danger that it can be. Gideon’s ephod became a snare - so did the brazen serpent destroyed by Hezekiah. So can the Bible be.
FWIW - kissing statues & bowing to them is not of itself idolatry. It can be - but if Christians do it, the assumption has to be that they know what they are doing, & donot intend to honour the plaster, wood or metal of which the statue is made, but the person whom it represents. For the honour given to the visible object is directed to its invisible prototype - just as the love expressed by a kiss between persons, is given not to skin cells, flesh or bone or blood, but to the person whose body is made of these things. And human persons, who are created beings, are themselves lovable only because of God.
So the veneration of the holy images & statues is entirely free of blame in itself - we are not idolaters.
In answer to what you have said above, (sorry i havent worked out how to seperate quotes) saying its ok to kiss & bow to statues you are saying that it would have been ok for Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to bow down to the idol of the king Nebuchadnezzar as long as they kept in mind the statue isnt a God. I no its not a statue of Christ in this case but it would be no different even if it was Mary.
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Realcatholicgk
Guest
Rude? I seemed rude? I apologize if it seemed that way. Never ever my intent.Don’t you evecall me rude until you lay EG White to the side! I noticed she hasn’t been laid in a while has she? Why does Dj and other want to lay her to the side all the time? Is it some kind of kinky SDA thing? Hey, you never responded to #88 unless this lame remark was your best response! Remember Jesus really loves you guys even if you can’t tell time!
OK Joke time:[SIGN] ** National Alert Announcement
Due to the recent economic crisis, bailouts, budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil, and the election of Obama, The Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off.
We apologize for any inconvenience this has caused. ** [/SIGN]
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Realcatholicgk
Guest
**You actually didn’t read the response did you? How could you say: “you are saying that it would have been ok for Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to bow down to the idol of the king Nebuchadnezzar as long as they kept in mind the statue isnt a God.”
An IDOL is a man made god. A creation, so worshiping an Idol, a created god, would violate the commandment! Honoring a statue which represented the real god wouldn’t be the same thing as the same thing! Honoring a statue of Any saint would just be honoring them. Now don’t be foolish and post some ridiculous response that will make you seem foolish! You are smarter than that!
God Bless **
P
Protestant101
Guest
[/QUOTE]And if it turns out that my questions are similar to what others have asked regarding SDA beliefs, I still deny that I took my questions from those books or sites. These seem like pretty self evident questions.
Many of the official sources do indeed say that they reject ‘Darwinism’ because in it’s purest form, it denies God as Creator, yet, Catholic teachings on this subject are all so tentative, that it in effect leaves one wondering what their real position is, or will end up being.
But we can know that both Pius XII and John Paul II (among others) did indeed make some very positive statements regarding evolution as being ‘on par’ with the Biblical text of Genesis, and it’s “interpretation.”
The really curious part in all this is how Catholic leadership allows for several different strains of evolution theory, which is really sounding more like a Protestant approach!! “The members just believe what they want,” as some of the good Catholic folk here keep saying about us!
I would like to know just what strains of evolution would constitute not being ‘against Catholic faith.’
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Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Hi Protestant101,OK then; why does it even matter that I reply any further to that point? The writings of these people are easy to track down, and those interested will see that i do have a point based on FACT here.
Patrick; I have been studying Catholic doctrines longer than you, by the looks of various comments in some of your posts here at CAF; maybe I actually know more about them than you? I am surprised to see you answer like this when I said that “Your own Popes concede now that evolution is a fact.” Since I have last posted here, I have looked at close to a dozen major Catholic sources on this subject, and yes, your Church does officially teach that it is OK for members to adopt evolution theory, “as long as it does not conflict with Catholic faith.”
Many of the official sources do indeed say that they reject ‘Darwinism’ because in it’s purest form, it denies God as Creator, yet, Catholic teachings on this subject are all so tentative, that it in effect leaves one wondering what their real position is, or will end up being.
But we can know that both Pius XII and John Paul II (among others) did indeed make some very positive statements regarding evolution as being ‘on par’ with the Biblical text of Genesis, and it’s “interpretation.”
The really curious part in all this is how Catholic leadership allows for several different strains of evolution theory, which is really sounding more like a Protestant approach!! “The members just believe what they want,” as some of the good Catholic folk here keep saying about us!
I would like to know just what strains of evolution would constitute not being ‘against Catholic faith.’
I am going to keep all my ‘coal’ for now; the ‘fire’ looks warm enough; and besides, it is minus 40 degrees celsius here with the wind chill…
-40 degrees!!!
I cannot imagine what that feels like…well I can imagine and all I can say is… Yes, by all means, keep your coal…in fact I should probably send you a truckload or two!!
Anyway…it matters that you reply to your accusations that I “lifted” my questions from anti-SDA websites. If that is indeed such an easy fact to prove as you keep saying, just post a link to my questions in those webites…then you will have supported your accusations with easily obtainable facts. Until you do that, your accusations are empty.
If you really do know more about Catholicism than I do (which I don’t personally believe, but I’m not denying that you don’t), then you would have reconciled with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church long before I did. And our conversation would be completely different from what it is currently.
Again you quote above “Your own Popes concede now that evolution is a fact.”, and follow that with this…**Since I have last posted here, I have looked at close to a dozen major Catholic sources on this subject, and yes, your Church does officially teach that it is OK for members to adopt evolution theory, “as long as it does not conflict with Catholic faith.” **
These two statements of yours contradict your point. In the first you say that the Popes concede that evolution is fact. In the second you point out that it is theory which Catholics are allowed to adopt if it doesn’t conflict with the Catholic faith and teachings.
No Pope, at least to my knowledge, has ever confirmed nor stated that the theory of evolution is FACT. Not even scientists can confirm that the THEORY of evolution is FACT. That is because the theory of evolution is just that…a THEORY, not a FACT. It has never been proven by anyone.
No one can prove that creation came about by evolution or by the Word of God. Both of these positions are matters of faith not science.
One of my favorite writers, a journalist who is an agnostic, has written several articles pointing out that the theory of evolution is based more upon metaphysics than science. He raises questions, which should be applied in any use of scientific method, to scientists making bold claims that evolution is the way mankind got where we are.
Up to this point his questions remain unanswered, revealing that those who hold dear to evolution are more metaphysicians than scientists…greater men of faith than science. I would be more than happy to post links to his articles in this thread if anyone would like to read them.
And just for the record, the only thing I know for sure as to how God created this world and us is that He spoke and it was so, and He formed humans from the clay and breathed into us His Spirit…The Breath of Life.
The Bible record is not consistent to support a literal 24 hour 7 day creation. But you know what? When I think about the creation and meditate upon it, I personally go with the 7 day view. I much prefer that to an evolutionary creation…perhaps because in my heart I’m a poet and a romantic.
The creation story is only two chapters out of the entire Bible. The lessons we need to learn from that story depend more upon God the Creator and what he did, rather than on how His Creative action is documented in a written form. The history of our situation resides in chapters 3 to the end. One day I’m sure God will let us all know how he performed chapters 1 and 2.
God bless all!!!
H
happilycatholic
Guest
Merry Christmas Protestant101 and Patrick! I see you two are still at it. If nothing else, you are determined in the name of the Lord and that can’t be bad!!
Peace to both of you and press on.
HC
If nothing else, you are determined in the name of the Lord and that can’t be bad!!Peace to both of you and press on.
HC
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Patrick_Murebil
Guest
Merry Christmas Protestant101 and Patrick! I see you two are still at it.
Peace to both of you and press on.
HC
Merry Christmas to you and yours too happilycatholic!!!
And Merry Christmas to you and yours too Protestant101!!!
God bless all!!!
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Realcatholicgk
Guest
**
Merry Christmas to you and yours too happilycatholic!!!
And Merry Christmas to you and yours too Protestant101!!!
God bless all!!!
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE****
CHRISTMAS PARTY PROTESTANT’101’s HOUSE,
THURSDAY AFTERNOON 3 PM.
Pat, you bring the Steaks,
I’ll bring the wine!
**
I just read posts -40 degrees
Change of plans. ~ Party at my House ~65 degrees today. Protestant101 you bring the wine!**God Bless**
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happilycatholic
Guest
Oh hay Real, I forgot after we last spoke are we buddies or…just kidding! Merry Christmas! ~HCMERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE
CHRISTMAS PARTY PROTESTANT’101’s HOUSE,
THURSDAY AFTERNOON 3 PM.
Pat, you bring the Steaks,
I’ll bring the wine!
**
I just read posts -40 degrees
God Bless
- Status