Catholics and the Great White Throne

[ralphinal]

But what if the Particular Judgement (at death) is the same thing as the General Judgement (at the Resurrection of the dead) ? Unless they are the same, there are are two of them. Which sounds rather artificial & unlikely.​

There are separate if there is a chance that the two results will vary. You already know where you are headed, assuming you died before the end. The results are made known then.

 

[ralphinal]

I don’t think you can support this. Why do people weep, and gnash their teeth, if they are not upset?

Matt 8:11-12
11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

No, God’s grace is certainly sufficient to cover. not all will accept the covering provided. One must don the wedding garment.

Matt 22:11-14

11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

All are called. Only those who recieve the garment provided by the King are worthy to enter.

I was not clear. I mean that the people in heaven will not be sad and upset that their loved ones did not make it because they will fully understand why. Those in hell will still not accept it

 

[Snerticus]

The following are two exerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They may help a non-Catholic understand the official Catholic position on the Last Judgement. Paragraph numbers are in bold.

678 Following in the steps of the prophets and John the Baptist, Jesus announced the judgement of the Last Day in his preaching. Then will the conduct of each one and the secrets of hearts be brought to light. Then will the culpable unbelief that counted the offer of God’s grace as nothing be condemned. Our attitude to our neighbour will disclose acceptance or refusal of grace and divine love. On the Last Day Jesus will say: “Truly I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.”

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, “of both the just and the unjust,” will precede the Last Judgment. This will be “the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.” Then Christ will come “in his glory, and all the angels with him … Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left… And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare. The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . “I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence.”**1040 **The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvellous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them “the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation.” It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come “to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all who have believed.”

 

[Seeking12]

But what if the Particular Judgement (at death) is the same thing as the General Judgement (at the Resurrection of the dead) ? Unless they are the same, there are are two of them. Which sounds rather artificial & unlikely.​

I believe you may be onto something about 2 judgments. more thought and study is needed.

 

[Seeking12]

** Originally Posted by Cluny View Post
This is the Last Judgement.

Period.

The idea that the Great White Throne Judgement is something separate is one of the errors of Dispensationalism, which has two or three Second Comings, some half-dozen Judgements, and a handful of Resurrections.

There is no pre-trib rapture. This is a novelty that was never heard of before 1930.

Those who are waiting for it will be among the first toi fall down and worship the Beast. (“How can he possibly be the Antichrist? The Rapture hasn’t taken place yet. And he’s doing all the right things. He’s even made peace for Israel,” They will say.)
Can you support your position?**

There are already books dealing with the errors of Dispensationalism.

The Bible is one of them.

Do your own homework.

**
Are you suggesting because of this judgment that people will lose their salvation;**

You don’t actually think you’re saved now, do you?

**What was the purpose of 1John? Are you suggestion you cannot know? Why or why not?

I believe this judgment is for the condemned.**

 

[Seeking12]

The following are two exerpts from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. They may help a non-Catholic understand the official Catholic position on the Last Judgement. Paragraph numbers are in bold.

"The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory"
**
Is this the Second coming? If so, what happened to all the saints He is bringing with Him and what has happened to the 1000 year reign on earth, then the final judgment and the separation of the sheep and goats-this is not the same judgment??; so there must be at least 2 of them.? There is a real problem here if I am reading what it said.**

 

[guanophore]

Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is {the book} of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

** Judgment for what? Sins, deeds, thoughts etc.?**

“the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.”

** Would anyone need to go to this judgment of they enter heaven without the stain of sin? **

I would think not. “…earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.”"

This is a judgement that seems to take place outside of earth (temporal realm) and heaven. Those in heaven are not invited!

 

[Seeking12]

Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is {the book} of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

“the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.”

I would think not. “…earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.”"

This is a judgement that seems to take place outside of earth (temporal realm) and heaven. Those in heaven are not invited!

Is there evidence from Scripture that says or does not say that this event takes place in heaven? Where is this Great White Throne?

 

[Snerticus]

"The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory"

Is this the Second coming? If so, what happened to all the saints He is bringing with Him and what has happened to the 1000 year reign on earth, then the final judgment and the separation of the sheep and goats-this is not the same judgment??; so there must be at least 2 of them.? There is a real problem here if I am reading what it said.

Wow, I guess if you really want Catholic Church teaching I recommend you obtain and read the Catechism. It’s not a small book. It’s more of a reference as to what we believe. If you don’t have recourse to a catechism, such as at a library, I can give you a link to search it online HERE. It sounds like you are going to have too many questions for me to cut and paste, so I offer you that link. Look through it at your leisure. I’m not feeling too well right now or I’d search through it myself and give you a brief answer.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

There are separate if there is a chance that the two results will vary.

If the judge is God, how could that be possible ?​

You already know where you are headed, assuming you died before the end. The results are made known then.

But why ? If the damned are damned upon death, why stop their damnation to allow for the General Judgement ?​

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

**I was hoping gain insights from a Catholic perspective, what is the purpose of the Great White Throne judgment?

Revelation 20:11-12 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is {the book} of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.**

Nothing different that Matt 25:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37"Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[ralphinal]

If the judge is God, how could that be possible ?​

True. I do not know the answer to this. I just know that Catholics believe we are judged at death then we have the General Judgement.

But why ? If the damned are damned upon death, why stop their damnation to allow for the General Judgement ?​

You are thinking within time. No one said their punishment ends. Besides, don’t you think the ways you avoided God’s grace being made known will be a big time source of punishment

 

[Seeking12]

True. I do not know the answer to this. I just know that Catholics believe we are judged at death then we have the General Judgement.

You are thinking within time. No one said their punishment ends. Besides, don’t you think the ways you avoided God’s grace being made known will be a big time source of punishment

**
Hades is different than Hell. The unsaved dead of all the ages are in Hades until the Great White Throne judgment. That is why the Bible states the gates of Hades will not prevail. The Jews viewed Hades as the abode of the dead. This is the county jail until the state penitentiary, which is hell. There are degrees of hell, just like their are degrees in prison; from solitary confinement, maximum security to minimum security.

I am researching and studying this topic from different angles and the picture is unfolding.

Click this link to view the 10 places in the NT that Hades is used; interesting. searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=hades&section=0&translation=nas&oq=hases&new=1&sr=1**

 

[Snerticus]

**Hades is different than Hell. The unsaved dead of all the ages are in Hades until the Great White Throne judgment. That is why the Bible states the gates of Hades will not prevail. The Jews viewed Hades as the abode of the dead. This is the county jail until the state penitentiary, which is hell. There are degrees of hell, just like their are degrees in prison; from solitary confinement, maximum security to minimum security. **

**I am researching and studying this topic from different angles and the picture is unfolding. **

Click this link to view the 10 places in the NT that Hades is used; interesting. searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=hades&section=0&translation=nas&oq=hases&new=1&sr=1

Hades is where the idea of Purgatory came from in Catholic doctrine. So Catholics should know it well. True - Hades is not Hell and there are different levels in ancient thought. It’s where both the righteous and unrighteous went prior to Christ’s resurrection. Hades (in Greek) was also known as Sheol (in Hebrew).

 

[ralphinal]

**
Hades is different than Hell. The unsaved dead of all the ages are in Hades until the Great White Throne judgment. That is why the Bible states the gates of Hades will not prevail. The Jews viewed Hades as the abode of the dead. This is the county jail until the state penitentiary, which is hell. There are degrees of hell, just like their are degrees in prison; from solitary confinement, maximum security to minimum security.

I am researching and studying this topic from different angles and the picture is unfolding.

Click this link to view the 10 places in the NT that Hades is used; interesting. searchgodsword.org/desk/?language=en&query=hades&section=0&translation=nas&oq=hases&new=1&sr=1**

I know the word use. However, this is not exactly traditional Christian thought.

Hades is where the idea of Purgatory came from in Catholic doctrine. So Catholics should know it well. True - Hades is not Hell and there are different levels in ancient thought. It’s where both the righteous and unrighteous went prior to Christ’s resurrection. Hades (in Greek) was also known as Sheol (in Hebrew).

Is it? If you are in Purgatory, you will be in heaven. There is no waiting area for hell.

 

[Snerticus]

I know the word use. However, this is not exactly traditional Christian thought.

Is it? If you are in Purgatory, you will be in heaven. There is no waiting area for hell.

I didn’t say Hades is or was Purgatory, it’s where the idea of Purgatory came from. The righteous go to Purgatory do they not? The ones that need purification before entering heaven? Purgatory is not Hades. Hades was the “precursor” so to speak. It “became” or was “fulfilled” into the existence of Purgatory. There would be no need of people to be purified or otherwise before going to Hell.

It’s another reason why we pray for the souls in Purgatory. The dead were prayed for in Hades and Sheol as well.

 

[ralphinal]

I didn’t say Hades is or was Purgatory, it’s where the idea of Purgatory came from. The righteous go to Purgatory do they not? The ones that need purification before entering heaven? Purgatory is not Hades. Hades was the “precursor” so to speak. It “became” or was “fulfilled” into the existence of Purgatory. There would be no need of people to be purified or otherwise before going to Hell.

It’s another reason why we pray for the souls in Purgatory. The dead were prayed for in Hades and Sheol as well.

Forgive me, I misread.

 

[Snerticus]

Forgive me, I misread.

It’s quite alright. I don’t always write as clearly as I should.

 

[Seeking12]

Hades is where the idea of Purgatory came from in Catholic doctrine. So Catholics should know it well. True - Hades is not Hell and there are different levels in ancient thought. It’s where both the righteous and unrighteous went prior to Christ’s resurrection. Hades (in Greek) was also known as Sheol (in Hebrew).

*There are different levels in Scripture of hell not Hades; I guess that will qualify for ancient and current thought. Believers are not in Hades "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom." This is not a place for the elect. Besides, what would be the point of purgatory in light of the Great White Throne? If all the sins are purged in “purgatory”; then this would imply there are more to get rid of-doesn’t make any sense to me from a Biblical perspective, but that is probably a another topic that I can’t get into since I believe purgatory is made up.

 

[Snerticus]

*There are different levels in Scripture of hell not Hades; I guess that will qualify for ancient and current thought. Believers are not in Hades "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom." This is not a place for the elect. Besides, what would be the point of purgatory in light of the Great White Throne? If all the sins are purged in “purgatory”; then this would imply there are more to get rid of-doesn’t make any sense to me from a Biblical perspective, but that is probably a another topic that I can’t get into since I believe purgatory is made up.

From what I understand, both the rich man and Lazarus were in Sheol, but on different levels. Lazarus was on the righteous level also called “Abraham’s bosom”. The rich man obviously, was in the unrighteous part. Both parts were inaccessable to each other.

I didn’t get my info from Wiki (I had already known it), but a quick Google landed me HERE.