"Catholics" and the right to choose?

[limerick]

Wow, the things you learn from fellow “Catholics” on CAF. Obama is a man of “good morals.” He sanctions and encourages the killing of unborn babies, and he has “good morals.”

Limerick, you completely missed the point of my post. Pro-abortion advocates talk about how it’s not the government’s place to limit their “choices” but we do that ALL THE TIME with other laws in this country. There should be no legal exception to abortion, and anyone who votes for someone who thinks there should be commits a grave moral evil.

**I did not miss the point of your post, savienu. I simply view the scenarios from a different vantage point and, consequently, disagree with your arguments.

Limerick**

 

[mapleoak]

**What makes them the “most precious of God’s children”? Does God play favorites?

Limerick**

Indeed little children, including the unborn, by their very innocence, are most pleasing to God.
Luke 18:15-17:

And they brought unto him also infants, that he might touch them. Which when the disciples%between% saw, they rebuked them. But Jesus%between%, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Amen, I say to you: Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God%between% as a child shall not enter into it.

As far as God playing favorites, remember that He does not owe any of us anything. Pray that God may be pleased to offer His mercy rather than His justice.

 

[limerick]

Indeed little children, including the unborn, by their very innocence, are most pleasing to God.

** Now, are they “most pleasing to God” (as in “quite pleasing to God”) or are they “the most pleasing to God”, as in “more pleasing to God than other souls”? This is not minutiae to me - there is a significant difference between the two and I want to understand exactly what you are trying to convey here.
**
As far as God playing favorites, remember that He does not owe any of us anything. Pray that God may be pleased to offer His mercy rather than His justice.
**I have never in my life believed that God owes me a thing. And are mercy and justice mutually exclusive?

Limerick
**

 

[savienu]

**I did not miss the point of your post, savienu. I simply view the scenarios from a different vantage point and, consequently, disagree with your arguments.

Limerick**

Then explain to me, please, other than its legality (because it being legal doesn’t make it moral, or right), what makes abortion different. Would making abortion illegal infringe on a woman’s “right to choose”? What is she “choosing” when she chooses an abortion? If I choose to shoot someone, I will have to face the legal and spiritual consequences. Why not with abortion? Does her right to “choose” trump the child’s right to life? If so, why? Furthermore, what other people’s lives do we have the right to “choose” to directly take? How is the law just, or right? I don’t have the right to kill my two year old if he is inconvenient to me. Why was I allowed to kill him if he was inconvenient to me before he had been born?

 

[mulligan59]

MapleOak it is not okay to lose either life. When a woman wants an abortion she will go
to Mexico or to a back alley abortionist is she cannot go to a clean safe clinic.
Would you honestly prefer that outcome for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?

Yes. and if I knew my neighbor was intent on murdering his wife but only had a knife, I would not lend him my gun either. Your position is beyond stupid. How can you atand yourself?

 

[mapleoak]

**Now, are they “most pleasing to God” (as in “quite pleasing to God”) or are they “the most pleasing to God”, as in “more pleasing to God than other souls”? This is not minutiae to me - there is a significant difference between the two and I want to understand exactly what you are trying to convey here.
**

I mean ‘most’ in the superlative sense of ‘much’, in that sin, especially mortal sin, makes us displeasing to God. Children are not tainted by actual sin, therefore have never rejected God, nor made themselves displeasing in the sight of God. Therefore they are MOST pleasing to God. That is a tenant of our Catholic faith. Sin makes us unworthy of God’s favor in any degree or fashion. Why do you ask?

I have never in my life believed that God owes me a thing.

But you question if God chooses to be generous with His mercy to some (remember the parable of the laborers in the field?) he is somehow playing favortism. All we deserve is God’s justice, not His mercy.

**And are mercy and justice mutually exclusive?**God’s mercy tempers His justice. Otherwise we would all be burning in Hell for all eternity right now, for that is what we deserve. Give Him thanks for His mercy for which we do not deserve and for not acting His justice upon us.

 

[BRZ]

I don’t understand how anyone could not see how important the abortion issue is. There are more unborn babies that die per year in the world than basically any war in recent memory added together. More than people who were killed during the holocaust, during all of world war 2 actually. There is something like 3 million from the U.S. alone, unborn babies that die per year, nevermind China, or any other country. So please tell me how the economy or any other matter is more important, or even close to as important as this? Better that you live in misery and suffering than that a baby die. Better that you give up your own life than allow someone else (anyone) to die if it can be avoided. Or do you think that isn’t something that Jesus would do? He that gave up His life that we might all be saved when we owed him nothing? If you can’t understand this concept than you do not know Christ.

Now some of you say, do not judge, but the truth is that if something is wrong and evil, we are not only allowed to judge it, we are expected to! This does not mean judging the person, but the actions, but the intentions, but the thoughts. As long as we are not being hypocritical, it is our obligation and duty to judge these evil actions and do something about it. Now, I am just speaking generally because I will not judge anything (person or actions) but only because I admit I haven’t done anything to fight the abortion issue (mainly because I am living in a foreign country now which I do not speak the native language). Although, I could probably send letters, perhaps I should do that. Actually I did sign a petition from CAF not too long ago I think. I digress, sorry.

 

[Alisa]

Interesting. I had always understood from preschool Catechism classes onward that God loves all human beings equally (I assume this means born or unborn). It seems to me that some people contributing to this forum would like to believe we are less precious in the eyes of God because, having lived a few years longer than children, we’ve been in position to commit more sins. God loves the “sinner” as well as the innocent.

In a way, I think this is getting off track a little bit for this thread, but maybe it’s an important misunderstanding among those of us who are contributing to the thread.

And about the “burning in hell” comment. Once again, it is for God to judge. If I may be pardoned for suggesting this, it seems as if some contributors are pretty certain they have all the answers here, and being so armed, are in a position to make decisions for God.

All we can do is try our hardest to see to our own lives, which really shouldn’t leave us too much time to judge the actions and intentions of others.

Again: I am anti-abortion and would not have had one, ever. I tried my best to see that our children were brought up to continue to follow this Catholic teaching. So demonstrate on the steps of abortion clinics or write letters to Washington if you feel compelled to do so – but I feel making judgments on the best intentions of others and throw around phrases such as “grave sins” and “burning in hell” are a bit presumptuous. Let God be God.

Alisa

 

[savienu]

I don’t understand how anyone could not see how important the abortion issue is. There are more unborn babies that die per year in the world than basically any war in recent memory added together. More than people who were killed during the holocaust, during all of world war 2 actually. There is something like 3 million from the U.S. alone, unborn babies that die per year, nevermind China, or any other country. So please tell me how the economy or any other matter is more important, or even close to as important as this? Better that you live in misery and suffering than that a baby die. Better that you give up your own life than allow someone else (anyone) to die if it can be avoided. Or do you think that isn’t something that Jesus would do? He that gave up His life that we might all be saved when we owed him nothing? If you can’t understand this concept than you do not know Christ.

Now some of you say, do not judge, but the truth is that if something is wrong and evil, we are not only allowed to judge it, we are expected to! This does not mean judging the person, but the actions, but the intentions, but the thoughts. As long as we are not being hypocritical, it is our obligation and duty to judge these evil actions and do something about it. Now, I am just speaking generally because I will not judge anything (person or actions) but only because I admit I haven’t done anything to fight the abortion issue (mainly because I am living in a foreign country now which I do not speak the native language). Although, I could probably send letters, perhaps I should do that. Actually I did sign a petition from CAF not too long ago I think. I digress, sorry.

Exactly. Scripture actually commands us to speak up, otherwise WE WILL BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE SIN!

Ezekiel 33:6-9 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.

Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. When I say to the wicked, ‘O wicked man, you will surely die,’ and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.

But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.

 

[savienu]

Interesting. I had always understood from preschool Catechism classes onward that God loves all human beings equally (I assume this means born or unborn). It seems to me that some people contributing to this forum would like to believe we are less precious in the eyes of God because, having lived a few years longer than children, we’ve been in position to commit more sins. God loves the “sinner” as well as the innocent.

In a way, I think this is getting off track a little bit for this thread, but maybe it’s an important misunderstanding among those of us who are contributing to the thread.

And about the “burning in hell” comment. Once again, it is for God to judge. If I may be pardoned for suggesting this, it seems as if some contributors are pretty certain they have all the answers here, and being so armed, are in a position to make decisions for God.

All we can do is try our hardest to see to our own lives, which really shouldn’t leave us too much time to judge the actions and intentions of others.

Again: I am anti-abortion and would not have had one, ever. I tried my best to see that our children were brought up to continue to follow this Catholic teaching. So demonstrate on the steps of abortion clinics or write letters to Washington if you feel compelled to do so – but I feel making judgments on the best intentions of others and throw around phrases such as “grave sins” and “burning in hell” are a bit presumptuous. Let God be God.

Alisa

God is God, and God will judge someone’s eternal soul. But God has given us a Church to guide us with these matters, and Sacred Scriptures says we can KNOW the Truth, and the Truth will set us free. We Catholics don’t speak our own opinions. We speak for the Church, who is Christ’s Bride on this Earth. If you remember from Catechism class so well, you should remember that abortion, AND cooperation in abortion is a moral evil. These are not the opinions of “some” members of CAF. This is from God. It is not judgment to speak the Truth. Is it judgmental to say 2 plus 2 is 4 if someone else, in good conscience, REALLY believes it is 5?

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

We are judged based on the measure of how we judge others. I do my best to follow the teachings of the Church. If the Church says abortion is a grave evil, well, even if I didn’t know that from common sense, I would believe Her. It’s not about playing God. But I for one am not going to gamble MY soul on keeping quiet.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Some of us have been revealed to the Truth. Some of us have not been revealed to the Truth. Some of us have been revealed the Truth and willfully accept it. Some of us have been revealed the Truth and willfully reject it.

The last is a willful rejection of Truth which comes from Truth Himself. As Truth has been presented and willfully rejected we pray that Truth is eventually accepted.

 

[limerick]

Then explain to me, please, other than its legality (because it being legal doesn’t make it moral, or right), what makes abortion different.

But its legality is one distinct, significant factor which does make it different, and this cannot currently be dismissed. I have not argued that abortion is moral or right.

Would making abortion illegal infringe on a woman’s “right to choose”?

Only from a legal standpoint. A woman will always have free will and will always have the ability to choose to seek an abortion or to carry the fetus to term and give birth.

What is she “choosing” when she chooses an abortion?

One hundred women would give you one hundred answers to that question. It is by her standards a complex set of circumstances.

If I choose to shoot someone, I will have to face the legal and spiritual consequences. Why not with abortion?

As I already explained, a woman who has an abortion does not currently face legal consequences in the United States (under most circumstances). She will, to one degree or another, be faced with emotional and spiritual questions, perhaps problems and, of course, will be accountable to her God when the time comes.

Does her right to “choose” trump the child’s right to life? If so, why?
**
I have only one opinion on this and it pertains exclusively to me and my circumstances when I discovered I was pregnant at 18: my choice to have an abortion arose from the fact that the sperm donor did not love me, there was no promise of a stable future with him; I had little idea how conception actually took place because my family absolutely shut down on the topic of sex and sexuality and I had scant knowledge of the mechanics of reproduction and absolutely no inkling of what love was. I was terrified, living in a remote area of the country with no neighbors around for many miles. There was no one for me to discuss the matter with, no transportation to a church of any denomination because my '63 Mercury had been set on fire by kids with too much time on their hands. The nearest large city was 180 miles away. Thirteen weeks into the pregnancy I bribed a housemate to drive me to the aforementioned city, where I spent two days setting up the procedure and one week recovering at an acquaintance’s house. After that week I went back to work.

My point? That this** teenager’s fear and ignorance trumped a fetus’ potential, not because it was right or moral or convenient, but because this teenager was unconnected to anything, emotionally, spiritually or in any other way. I was driven by instinct and anxiety. I had no heart-string connection to this fetus. My feeling was that it was much like a tumor. Surgery could correct it. Despicable? Perhaps. But the point is that, as often as not, panic trumps reason.

Not every woman has my experience. Not every woman is so devoid of a certainty of being loved by God, by another human being, even by herself. I did not entrap the donor. I had no intention of conceiving. I knew nothing about birth control, but I also was never taught any Catholic doctrine about relationships or respect or patience or caring - the package I got was family alcoholism and mental illness. I can guarantee you nobody in my family was modeling healthy self-esteem or a healthy relationship.

In response to your anticipated next question, the answer is NO, it’s not anyone’s responsibility but mine. I made the decision to terminate. It’s not my alcoholic father’s responsibility, my doormat mother’s responsibility, my incestuous brother’s responsibility or my invisible sister’s responsibility. This one is mine. I lay it at no one’s feet. However, I have long advocated communication amongst family members in order that this sorry veil of secrecy not stunt the emotional and sexual growth of children. Knowledge is power. It gives us the power to make right-thinking decisions, based on the facts, on reason, on maturity.

Furthermore, what other people’s lives do we have the right to “choose” to directly take?

**I do not visit the euthansia issue, if that’s where you’re going. Or the mentally challenged or the autistic or the microcephalic. I speak from my experience, which includes my own alcoholism, drug addiction and mental illness. It took me 32 years to sober up; a pregnant woman does not have 32 years to debate the pros and cons of delivery vs. abortion. **

and How is the law just, or right?

I will not enter into a legal debate here.

I don’t have the right to kill my two year old if he is inconvenient to me. Why was I allowed to kill him if he was inconvenient to me before he had been born?
**
You may not have the legal right to kill your two year old if he is inconvenient to you, but you do have free will which, under particularly stressful circumstances, may cause you to consider doing so. As far as I’m concerned, it’s not a matter of the “right” to do something - it’s a matter of free will, of choice. The choice to carry or terminate. That is what’s of interest to me. We all have free will. We all can decide to hold up the Pony Express or steal french fries from the bin at McDonald’s when the server isn’t looking. We can, by virtue of free will, cheat on our spouses, extort money from work, steal the neighbor’s GTO. Maybe none of it is morally right. But we all have the capacity to choose**. To choose and to live with the consequences, no matter how sad, how demoralizing, how gut-wrenching.

Hope that answers your questions.

Limerick

 

[mapleoak]

Interesting. I had always understood from preschool Catechism classes onward that God loves all human beings equally (I assume this means born or unborn). It seems to me that some people contributing to this forum would like to believe we are less precious in the eyes of God because, having lived a few years longer than children, we’ve been in position to commit more sins. God loves the “sinner” as well as the innocent.

Saint Thomas Aquinas:

The penitent and the innocent are related as exceeding and exceeded. For whether innocent or penitent, those are the better and betterloved who have most grace. Other things being equal, innocence is the nobler thing and the more beloved. God%between% is said to rejoice more over the penitent than over the innocent, because often penitents rise from sin%between% more cautious, humble%between%, and fervent.

and
Saint Thomas Aquinas:

Everything loves what is like it, as appears from (Sirach 13:19): “Every beast loveth its like.” Now the better a thing is, the more like is it to God%between%. Therefore the better things are more loved by God%between%.

And who is more like unto God than the holy innocents and the unborn?

In a way, I think this is getting off track a little bit for this thread, but maybe it’s an important misunderstanding among those of us who are contributing to the thread.

Yes it is a misunderstanding.

And about the “burning in hell” comment. Once again, it is for God to judge.

Who here can say they ‘deserve’ anything but eternal punishment. Saint Alphonsus Liguori himself use to say that each and every one of us deserves eternal punishment. We are not in the least owed salvation, but can only trust in and pray for God’s mercy.

If I may be pardoned for suggesting this, it seems as if some contributors are pretty certain they have all the answers here, and being so armed, are in a position to make decisions for God.

I don’t see anyone here claiming to be in a position to make decisions for God. Who might that be?

All we can do is try our hardest to see to our own lives, which really shouldn’t leave us too much time to judge the actions and intentions of others.

Instructing those who do not believe killing innocent people is wrong is by no means judging them. Instructing those that turning a blind eye to the innocent unborn is by no means judging. Nevertheless, they are indeed wrong, and that is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Again: I am anti-abortion and would not have had one, ever. I tried my best to see that our children were brought up to continue to follow this Catholic teaching. So demonstrate on the steps of abortion clinics or write letters to Washington if you feel compelled to do so – but I feel making judgments on the best intentions of others and throw around phrases such as “grave sins” and “burning in hell” are a bit presumptuous. Let God be God.

The Church calls abortion a “grave moral disorder” and has done so since ancient times. The Church does not change.

 

[Alisa]

Thank you for sharing your story, Limerick. I’m so glad to hear things are better for you now.
Alisa

 

[limerick]

God is God, and God will judge someone’s eternal soul. But God has given us a Church to guide us with these matters, and Sacred Scriptures says we can KNOW the Truth, and the Truth will set us free. We Catholics don’t speak our own opinions.

Take a look on any thread, any day, on this forum. I think you will find you are in error.

We speak for the Church, who is Christ’s Bride on this Earth. If you remember from Catechism class so well, you should remember that abortion, AND cooperation in abortion is a moral evil.

Abortion was absolutely never mentioned in any of my catechism classes, nor was sexuality, and the only love mentioned was the vague and mysterious love we had to earn from God.

These are not the opinions of “some” members of CAF. This is from God. It is not judgment to speak the Truth. Is it judgmental to say 2 plus 2 is 4 if someone else, in good conscience, REALLY believes it is 5?

Not all we read here is from God.

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.73

My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.74

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.75

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.76

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"77 "by the very commission of the offense,"78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being’s right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."80

"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child’s rights."81

Pardon this un-Catholic, but it would be nice if you named your reference(s).

We are judged based on the measure of how we judge others.

I’m sorry, but I believe God wishes us to do well, to give Him glory, to represent Him with honor and dignity in this world. I don’t believe our main goal in life is to judge others.

I do my best to follow the teachings of the Church. If the Church says abortion is a grave evil, well, even if I didn’t know that from common sense, I would believe Her. It’s not about playing God. But I for one am not going to gamble MY soul on keeping quiet.

**And that, my dear, is a choice.

Limerick**

 

[Alisa]

“Not everything we read here is from God”. I couldn’t agree more. God has given us each a life to live. We are to be God’s hands and heart here on earth, instruments of His peace and love. He didn’t put us here to lambast one another and make the lives of other people’s already difficult lives more difficult.

No, I’m not referring only to the pro-life issue – I hope I won’t get a reprimand from the powers-that-be here, but – don’t I detect a kind of smugness and lack of humility running through this particular thread?

Alisa

 

[fix]

Thank you fix. It is a grave evil, regardless of the person’s intentions. Things that are evil don’t become not evil just because someone (or the majority of people) don’t think they are evil. We do not live in a relativistic world, much to the surprise of most of modern society. Judgment is saying, “You, so-and-so, are going to Hell for the things you have done” not “This action is a grave evil.”

Keep stating what is true. We mistake license for freedom. We mistake natural law known to all men as religious dogma that binds only a few.

Intrinscially bad acts do not become acceptable because someone is less culpable before God. It seems a hard concept grasp in our culture which is so very confused about free will, rights, and the role of the state.

 

[limerick]

Keep stating what is true. We mistake license for freedom. We mistake natural law known to all men as religious dogma that binds only a few.

Intrinscially bad acts do not become acceptable because someone is less culpable before God. It seems a hard concept grasp in our culture which is so very confused about free will, rights, and the role of the state.

**a) Did someone on this thread claim that some individuals are less culpable before God than others? Where?

b) Do you feel that someone or a number of posters are confused about free will, rights and the role of the state? If so, to whom do you refer? And how have you come to this conclusion?

Limerick**

 

[fix]

You may not have the legal right to kill your two year old if he is inconvenient to you, but you do have free will which, under particularly stressful circumstances, may cause you to consider doing so. As far as I’m concerned, it’s not a matter of the “right” to do something - it’s a matter of free will, of choice. The choice to carry or terminate. That is what’s of interest to me. We all have free will. We all can decide to hold up the Pony Express or steal french fries from the bin at McDonald’s when the server isn’t looking. We can, by virtue of free will, cheat on our spouses, extort money from work, steal the neighbor’s GTO. Maybe none of it is morally right. But we all have the capacity to choose. To choose and to live with the consequences, no matter how sad, how demoralizing, how gut-wrenching.

Yes**,** we can abuse free will by choosing evil. Such an abuse is does not mean it must be legal in each circumstance. It simply means that we have the power to abuse freedom.

The problem is that some abuse of freedom is so wrong that the civil law must not support it. That is not a novel concept. We have such laws regarding rape and arson and DWI. Are you supporting any of those as simply a choice?

When it comes to the right to life, no one’s "choice " should be allowed that includes killing another. Again, not that hard a concept.

 

[fix]

a) Did someone on this thread claim that some individuals are less culpable before God than others? Where?

Some said it was “judging” to point out abortion was a grave evil and is always wrong.

**

b) Do you feel that someone or a number of posters are confused about free will, rights and the role of the state? If so, to whom do you refer? And how have you come to this conclusion?

**

Limerick

Yes, I think many are confused as I have read many times on this site. I am speaking generally. For example, one of the common things I read is that the law should not protect innocent life because the understanding of abortion is exclusively a religious concept and therefore the state should not prohibit such a vile act.

Another example would be people claiming we all have free will therefore the choice to kill innocent people should be legal.

Also, I reject the use of the term “right” in reference to doing evil. There is no right to do evil.