"Catholics" and the right to choose?

[patricia_connel]

I liked your comments, Patricia Connel. They are the most sensitive sincere, and also the most intelligent, I’ve heard in this thread and others.

I began contributing to threads on Catholic Answers, hoping to find enlightenment and an interesting give-and-take in discussions. However, I’ve heard nothing but bigotry, narrow-mindedness from most, and judging. My faith and morals have even been questioned, even though in fact I am anti-abortion and have spent most of my life raising good Catholic children and grandchildren.

If we can’t discuss calmly and with respect for one another’s lives, then Catholic Answers appears not to be the forum for me!

Alisa

I, too, after reading all these comments, am amazed by bigotry, narrow mindedness, judging (I think one comment told someone that their soul was in danger of being lost), but I can’t stop reading them. It’s like an addiction for I truly am stunned by most of them. There is nothing that President Obama can do right…there is nothing that Republicans do wrong…Abortion is a terrible issue that is very complex and will not have an easy cure. Throwing stones, and telling people they are going to hell only cements the ideas that there is a radical group out there who cannot nor will not do anything else but complain and find fault or vote for Jack the Ripper as long as he claims to be pro-life. It’s like being back in grade school well maybe middle school. I will be glad to discuss issues with you privately, Alisa, for I feel the very same way about this forum of pointing fingers and such hate filled responses. Look at the site about Obama giving a stimilus to people on Social Security. Oh my!!!

 

[TracyJ]

That’s the most astounding thing I’ve read here. You admit that a life is being taken yet think the practice should be safe and legal. Are there other applications for this doctrine?

It seems too many Americans have been caught up in the political polemics of this issue. Give to Ceasar what is his, but this issue is above Democrat vs Republican. The history books won’t care what party was in power. They will wonder how a seemingly civilized society permitted the state sanctioned slaughter of millions of innocent human beings.

Obama is enjoying a high approval rating from some, but please don’t get caught up in a cult of personality. Obama does kill children - check his voting record in Illinois. The times he didn’t vote “Present” he was voting for abortion. As President, he will force doctors to perform them even against their conscience. He also is against protecting the survivors of abortion so that defeats the old “woman’s body” position.

As Catholic voters you should be inclined to support Catholic doctrine. If that’s not possible then you still have an obligation to protect the innocent and defend against evil. Please take some time to review your political position on this issue and rise above polemics or personality.

williamgairdner.com/abortion-and-slavery/

abortionviolence.com/

lifenews.com/

jillstanek.com/

lifesitenews.com/

If Jane Roe’s faith brought her to the Church and the pro-life position, then it should be easy for all Catholics to defend life to the best of their abilities.

youtube.com/watch?v=T_MUUvcvjEg

Okay, first of all, this is not an issue that I think needs to be handled by Obama.
This is where you are in error.
Clearly, the preaching and theatrics are not working with the majority of people, in order to resolve this matter one must get a few facts first.
When the Supreme Court decided that each woman would be allowed the privacy to
decide whether or not to abort her child the issue of her own spirituality was mentioned.
Of course, a Catholic woman, by virtue of her spiritual calling should never abort a child, and
yet we all know that they do.
Here’s an interesting article for you, it gives only the facts and while we should all
celebrate the fact that abortion rates are decreasing among teenagers it’s very disturbing
that older women are now taking that route:
newsweek.com/id/160401
This is a Church problem, not a civil problem. Until we can reach Catholic women it is
pure hubris to think that we can influence women of other faiths.

 

[TracyJ]

So equal that the child can be smothered out? Just like “Animal Farm”? Some are ‘more equal’ than others?

Okay, I know that you’re trying to be amusing here, or perhaps sarcastic, but you are
not addressing the problem scientifically.
Who gets abortions?
Why do they get abortions?
Until you can answer those questions you are not helping.

 

[TracyJ]

Why should brutally dismembering someone or burning them in brine till they die be “safe” and legal?
So we must never forget that we are taking a human life when we kill someone? As long as we keep this in mind it is okay?

MapleOak it is not okay to lose either life. When a woman wants an abortion she will go
to Mexico or to a back alley abortionist is she cannot go to a clean safe clinic.
Would you honestly prefer that outcome for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?

 

[TracyJ]

Sure, does that mean the one gets to kill the other?

No, however one IS killing the other, ask yourself Why. Why does a woman make that choice? Shame? Economics? Social isolation? Fear? This is not the government’s problem, it’s the problem of believers who want to preserve that life. I’m sure that there are plenty of examples of things that are right with the law but wrong with the faith. The fact that Catholics have attacked this problem as something that governments should resolve has always struck me as wrong-headed and foolish. Furthermore, it doesn’t work, in the US most Americans while deploring abortion will not vote for a change in the law.

Inded, it shows his “values” very well.
I think that his values are very strong and when he considers that he is talking about his own grandchild I’m sure that his opinion will change.

What does such a remark teach?
To me, it teaches that an unwanted child is punishment for life if a girl makes a mistake.

It shows how he thinks of fellow humans.
I would guess that Obama doesn’t consider the life of the unborn child as valuable as the life of the mother.

Huh?

Oh please! Don’t tell me that you’re unaware of men who, in the past, have denied parenthood because beyond a blood test it was impossible to ascertain who the father of the child was. .

 

[TracyJ]

No present or past justice has ever taken the position that the unborn child is, or should be regarded as, a “person” as understood in the Fourteenth Amendment, including the late Justice White, perhaps the most eloquent critic of Roe v. Wade. And in the Carhart case, the Court refused even to consider Nebraska’s argument that a partially born child is a constitutional person. That question was rejected for review without dissent. So much for the naive notion of “forcing” the Court to take on the personhood issue.

I took this passage from a Catholic Newspaper (found it online). It was a recent article, about Judge Scalia, a Catholic appointed by Regan. Judge Scalia is pro-choice. Abortion is not going to overturned by the Supreme Court; it will overturned by a change in our society. We need to write letters, get signatures on petitions and do the Walk in January and storm Capitol Hill.

Scalia never voted on RoeVWade.
While I agree with you that abortion will be overturned by a change in our society I think that wanting governments to change their laws is beating a dead horse…no matter how many letters are written.
IMO, the best way to stop abortions is NOT to make abortion illegal, it is to
figure out who gets abortions and why and to try to help women over that hump.
And involving the fathers of these children is almost as important as involving the mothers.
Why did that man use that woman so casually?
What is he going to do on behalf of that child if it is born?

 

[TracyJ]

No-one should try to score points by walking out of Mass to empasise their point of view, regardless of whether or not they agree with the celebrant or his Homily.
We come to Mass to express our love for, and adoration of our Creator, and his Son, our Redeemer.

You should not play political football with God!!

On the question of being pro-choice, all people - and that includes Catholics - are pro-choice in all their acts.

Like our forbears, Adam and Eve, we choose whether or not to love, trust, adore and obey God. If we believe that God created all, and that Jesus became incarnate in the womb of his mother, we would not wish to be ungrateful for the gifts of God by aborting what he has created.

We perhaps should have charity ; pray for women who have abortions; for their babies; and for those people who reject God to his face by walking out of Mass.

Pro - choice ultimately means not just abortion or women’s rights. It means choosing God for all eternity. Unfortunately, today, as in the time before the coming of Christ, many people have chose to ignore God. His Son Our Lord was pro choice - he came to redeem us and to give us the means to exercise our choice to go back to him.

God bless
Libbybe

I agree with you and I applaud your fresh way of approaching the issue of abortion.

You are clearly very well read on this issue and you seem to understand the complexities.
I would only add that we must pray for the FATHERS of those babies as well as the mothers.

 

[Ockham]

Why did that man use that woman so casually?
What is he going to do on behalf of that child if it is born?

You have to be kidding? The man used the woman casually? Maybe the woman was using the man? Entrapment?

This is indeed an Obama issue - he’s made it his own. He said the first thing he’d do if elected President is recind the Freedom of Choice Act. Check his voting record in Illinois. Check his cabinet appointments - all abortionists.

Abortion is murder. Any excuse is moral relativism.

 

[Fiyero3305]

MapleOak it is not okay to lose either life. When a woman wants an abortion she will go
to Mexico or to a back alley abortionist is she cannot go to a clean safe clinic.
Would you honestly prefer that outcome for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?

We do not want women to have abortions at all. The fact that it is legal and that our governement supports the killing of human children is disgusting and arguments such as this only attempt to use an appeal to emotion to cloud the issue. The fact of the matter is that abortion=legalized murder and it is our duty to fight it with everything we’ve got.

 

[Ockham]

You have to be kidding? The man used the woman casually? Maybe the woman was using the man? Entrapment?

This is indeed an Obama issue - he’s made it his own. He said the first thing he’d do if elected President is reinstate the Freedom of Choice Act. Check his voting record in Illinois. Check his cabinet appointments - all abortionists.

Abortion is murder. Any excuse is moral relativism.

 

[limerick]

We do not want women to have abortions at all. The fact that it is legal and that our governement supports the killing of human children is disgusting and arguments such as this only attempt to use an appeal to emotion to cloud the issue. The fact of the matter is that abortion=legalized murder and it is our duty to fight it with everything we’ve got.

**Whaddya got? Everyone stops short at the conclusion of this dramatic declaration. Then - nothing.
So … whaddya got? How ya gonna do it?

Limerick**

 

[libbybeth]

I am a practicing Catholic and I am pro-life. Last year, I participated in the Walk For Life in Washington, DC. I voted for Obama for I just couldn’t vote for McCain and Palin. There are 9 Supreme Court Justices- 7 were appointed by a Republican; that leaves 2 appointed by a Democrat. Sandra Day O’Connor was also appointed by a Republican. We still have abortion. So, to me, the abortion issue, is used every election by Republicans. Then those who are conservative Democrats Catholics have to endure judgment by others who are voting on one issue. I believe that Pro-Life is more than one issue, abortion (which is murder). But isn’t war murder? A war that never had to be. Our country is a mess in every aspect and this came about after 8 years of Republican rule. Isn’t torture Murder? I actually went to confession and confessed that I voted Democratic and my priest told me that I didn’t commit a sin. To have abortion overturned will require more than Supreme Court Justices. It will require Americans to Walk For Life, to write their Representatives, to Demand it. I’m sorry, but do not judge me for that is only done by Christ. I am a good Catholic who happens to be a Democrat. to run our country, could get my vote.

I quite agree with you that abortion is far more complex than many people admit. I don’t know much about American politics, but I agree with your priest. How can it be a sin to vote Democrat?? Sometimes when you vote, you have to look at the overall package on offer, and vote as your conscience dictates. Its quite likely that the person you vote for will not have your support on all the issues you vote for, and its even possible that the alternative candidate will think the same on those issues as the Democrat. For example, in this country, my MP is Labour and is strongly in support of abortion rights. Unfortunately, the Lib Dem and the Conservative candidates held the same view.

All you can do is your best. Put your trust in God. In any case, perhaps like me you don’t support the views on abortion of your representative, but you can keep writing to them and giving them the latest findings on abortion and associated matters.

If a person is pro-life, it should reflect a basic approach to life; support for policies that help to sustain a pro-life approach across the range of issues- eg family and support, abortion, childcare, support for marriage, war, death penalty, torture, etc. All life is created by God and he loves us; therefore we need to support policies that remember this and that enhance the dignity of all people. I think that you are doing your best, and should not be judged. Who is to say - if you tell your Democrat or write to him about your views and do so while he is your representative, you may soften his views, or even cause a change of heart. Best of luck to you.

 

[libbybeth]

I agree with you and I applaud your fresh way of approaching the issue of abortion.
Thanks for your comment, Tracy. Of course you are right. I know of one man who is now a father of 3 sons. Years ago he had a serious relationship and the girl became pregnant. He and his sister (my closest friend) agreed that abortion was the only way out. I did speak to them, not judgmentally, but urging them to reconsider the fact of their love and that this child sprang from that love. There were no serious financial or other issues involved. The girl had the abortion.

My friend told me that months later she found her brother grieving on his bed, with tears rolling down his face. It was the day his child would have been born. I have never forgotten this. It is clear that whether or not the abortion takes place, men suffer too. They need our prayers so that they can come to God and receive his peace.

You are clearly very well read on this issue and you seem to understand the complexities.
I would only add that we must pray for the FATHERS of those babies as well as the mothers.

 

[Ockham]

Suppose a concentration camp existed outside your city where a segment of the population went to be executed. An election came along and one of the candidates wanted to close the camp on moral grounds and the other wanted it left open for socio/economic reasons. Who would you vote for?

I have spoiled my ballot by writing in the words “Pro-Life. Abortion = Murder” if no candidate has made their position clearly opposed to the abortion issue.

As a Canadian I didn’t vote in the last U.S. election, but do believe it was a sin to vote for Obama. He made his intentions perfectly clear that upon taking office he would renew the campaign to execute as many unborn children as possible. Their blood is on every voter’s hands who checked off his name.

 

[mapleoak]

The needs of the mother are certainly equal to the needs of the child.

So equal that the child can be smothered out? Just like “Animal Farm”? Some are ‘more equal’ than others?

Okay, I know that you’re trying to be amusing here, or perhaps sarcastic, but you are
not addressing the problem scientifically.

No, it is a serious response to your statement. If the child’s life is disposable, than the mother must be ‘more equal’.
Interesting also that you mention the ‘needs’ of the mother being equal to the ‘needs’ of the child. Of course, both need nourishment to survive. The Church teaches that the very lives of each must be equally respected.

 

[mapleoak]

MapleOak it is not okay to lose either life. When a woman wants an abortion she will go to Mexico

myth

or to a back alley abortionist is she cannot go to a clean safe clinic.

Myth. The back alley butcher with a coat hanger is fear tactic perpetuated by the abortion industry.

Would you honestly prefer that outcome for a woman with an unwanted pregnancy?

I would prefer abortion be illegal. Just as murder is illegal, yet people manage still to kill each other in back alleys with knives and guns in an unsafe environment in spite of it being illegal. That is not a just rationalization for making something legal.

 

[mapleoak]

And involving the fathers of these children is almost as important as involving the mothers.
Why did that man use that woman so casually?
What is he going to do on behalf of that child if it is born?

According to the law of the land, a father has no say so. It is a woman’s decision. The father is legally stuck with her decision to kill his child. No way around that without changing the law.

 

[mapleoak]

If a person is pro-life, it should reflect a basic approach to life; support for policies that help to sustain a pro-life approach across the range of issues- eg family and support, abortion, childcare, support for marriage, war, death penalty, torture, etc.

None of these issues justify supporting (or ignoring) abortion in the case of our elected representatives. We don’t put a bandage on the scratch on our knee while ignoring our arm which has been cut off.
To be Catholic is to respect all human life from conception till natural death.

 

[Fiyero3305]

**Whaddya got? Everyone stops short at the conclusion of this dramatic declaration. Then - nothing.
So … whaddya got? How ya gonna do it?

Limerick**

I’ve got my vote which I am proud to say will always be pro-life; I’ve got my prayers; I’ve got letters written to Senators; I’ve got the March for Life, the day of silent solidarity, peaceful protests, and many more pro-life events to participate in; I’ve got opportunities to debate with pro-choicers and sometimes change their views.

I’ve got a lot, so don’t worry. I’m not stopping at some overstated, dramatic saying. I absolutely mean it.

 

[fix]

Oh please! Don’t tell me that you’re unaware of men who, in the past, have denied parenthood because beyond a blood test it was impossible to ascertain who the father of the child was. .

The government has an obligation to protect innocent life no matter the reason someone thinks they may kill another. This is basic to any civilized society and any rational person.