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Lemonpoptart
Guest
“Thing”??? What a monster!
What is WRONG with these people??? Murdering babies as ‘art’? May God change their cold hearts and have mercy on their souls!!! 
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What is WRONG with these people??? Murdering babies as ‘art’? May God change their cold hearts and have mercy on their souls!!!
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jean8
Guest
All Christians believe in the Ten Commandments. One reads, “Thou shalt not kill.”
Fifth Commandment. Some churches number the Commandments differently, but they are all there.
Ending the life of a child in the womb is killing the child through abortion. Pro-choice is a term that softens this action. In the end the Child is dead. .
I know this sounds harsh, but it’s true.
I have two adopted daughters. Their mothers obeyed the Fifth Commandment
God bless,
jean
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elts1956
Guest
My husband and I adopted a “saved” baby back in 1970. His Mom knew what is was to “be” Catholic too. May God bless and keep her.All Christians believe in the Ten Commandments. One reads, “Thou shalt not kill.”
Fifth Commandment. Some churches number the Commandments differently, but they are all there.
Ending the life of a child in the womb is killing the child through abortion. Pro-choice is a term that softens this action. In the end the Child is dead. .
I know this sounds harsh, but it’s true.
I have two adopted daughters. Their mothers obeyed the Fifth Commandment
God bless,
jean
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mapleoak
Guest
Though these women are very likely the exceptions. It is very probable that most women who kill their children do so under some form of stress. The same is true of just about anyone else who murders someone. There is usually some form of duress or motivating factor involved. This however does not reduce the gravity of the wrong in any way. Nor does it make the murder any less a murder. In the same way, a woman who aborts her child because she was motivated by some factor to do so, is no less guilty of having killed someone.
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mulligan59
Guest
So there is no meaningful difference then? My faith, your faith, it is all good? And let’s not judge. (On the basis of such an indifferent belief system, on what grounds can one take any moral position such as even to oppose abortion?)
Of course this is precisely what Vatican II teaches. It is diametrically opposed to what Christ said. It essentially calls Christ a liar. (Christ is the fulflllment of the Old Covenant by the way, Christianity 101) There is no way around this.
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mapleoak
Guest
Please substantiate your claim with solid support for the assertion that Vatican II teaches “My faith, your faith, it is all good”.
If you cannot do so, then kindly refrain from attacking the Magisterium of Christ’s Church.
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Alisa
Guest
So now we’re arguing about Vatican II and the Magisterium, and the Jews will “burn in hell” for not subscribing to what truth has been revealed to us Christians?
Is there no thread in CAF in which people are positive instead of negative – in which people discuss the faith we share, and how best to live our faith as we go about our daily lives?
God has given us a new day, the sun is up (though not the northwestern coastal area in which I live!), we have tasks to complete and prayers to say.
This all reminds me of the old story about the blindfolded people situated around an elephant and then asked to touch and describe the elephant. The man who touched the tail described the elephant as being skinny and rather short, the man by the trunk insisted the elephant was long and flexible, the man by the stomach insisted he was wrinkly and sparsely hairy, etc.
The elephant stands before us – a grand and mighty beast – yet all we do is argue about him!
Alisa
Is there no thread in CAF in which people are positive instead of negative – in which people discuss the faith we share, and how best to live our faith as we go about our daily lives?
God has given us a new day, the sun is up (though not the northwestern coastal area in which I live!), we have tasks to complete and prayers to say.
This all reminds me of the old story about the blindfolded people situated around an elephant and then asked to touch and describe the elephant. The man who touched the tail described the elephant as being skinny and rather short, the man by the trunk insisted the elephant was long and flexible, the man by the stomach insisted he was wrinkly and sparsely hairy, etc.
The elephant stands before us – a grand and mighty beast – yet all we do is argue about him!
Alisa
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mulligan59
Guest
This is almost too easy. There are two ways to answer this, I’ll do both. First directly:
Read the documents of Vatican II, particularly Unitatis Redintegratio, Nostra Aetate and Dignitatis Humanae. You’ll discover among other things that 1) the Jews are still faithful to their covenant which was never revoked (I guess Saint Paul was wrong on this and Jesus didn’t really mean it), that 2) the Muslims along with us worship the one true God (the Koran explicitly denies Christ and the Trinity in very vulgar terms, but Christ said “he who has not me, has not the Father either”), and 3) you’ll learn that all men have the right to profess whatever religion they choose (but rights come from God and God gives no one the “right” to choose wrong, else there’d be no such thing as sin).
I trust you’ll understand the the parts in parenthesis are not what the V II documents said, they are just my comments.
The other way to anser it is with a question: Do you think that muslims or Jews or Hindus or even Atheists can go to Heaven? If so, then you all ready beleive that it makes no difference at all what religion you profess.
I’m actually DEFENDING the Magisterium. The one with a 2,000 year history before the revolt of Vatican II. Because that Magisterium thought it very much mattered, as do I.
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Alisa
Guest
Mulligan, it doesn’t matter what you or Mapleoak or I believe about the Jews, Muslims, and Atheists going to heaven or not. That decision is up to God alone. I suggest we see to our own spiritual lives without casting our eyes about with pride and arrogance, actually presuming to help God with His judgments. The three of us are lucky enough to have been enlightened with Christianity. Let’s let people of other faiths work out their own fate with God directly.
A little positivity of attitude here, please? Surely we all have enough on our respective plates without having to take on the spiritual issues of others’ lives. God has revealed Himself to them in different kinds of ways, that’s all.
Alisa
A little positivity of attitude here, please? Surely we all have enough on our respective plates without having to take on the spiritual issues of others’ lives. God has revealed Himself to them in different kinds of ways, that’s all.
Alisa
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mulligan59
Guest
First I apologize to all on this thread who are annoyed that this discussion has gotten at least superficially off point. I say superficially however because I don’t think one can really understand the relativistic arguments so many people make regarding abortion; how for example proabortion candidates consistently receive a majority of the Catholic vote, without understanding the sentiments, or habits of mind that support them. These attitudes stem directly from Vatican II’s promotion of religious liberty, freedom of conscience, respect for other religions, “non-judgementalism”, the elevation of the “social gospel” over the Social Kingship of Christ, etc. These notions apparently few realize (understandilbly as it is not taught, hasn’t been nearly 50 years), are in direct opposition, a virtual reversal, of what the Church consistently taught for its first 1,930 years.
Now Alisa,
I do not think that I am being “negative”. I am trying to promote my understanding through argument. Argument is not a bad word. It is our most essential and meaningful form of communication. It is essential to learning, it is essential to critical thinking, in fact it defines critical thinking. It is the purpose for which a site such as this exists. I don’t understand what you mean by negativity. Is it the lack of a consensus?
Neither is the willingness to make spirited arguments with reference to facts arrogant.
I have no authority and I have little to be prideful about. I’m well aware of my own considerable limitations and sinful propensities. But I do know what the Church has taught, because these things are simple and straight forward and “must be beleived by all” (not my words but the words of Christ and his Church). All I’m doing is pointing them out to people who seem to have forgotten or never heard them.
,
You say that only God decides who will go to Heaven and you are absolutely right. However what you seem to miss is that He told us an awful lot about how He will decide. Have you not read the Gospels? The clues abound. One must be baptized, one must eat His body, one must obey His commandments, one must know the Son to know the Father, one must listen to the Church. Christ said directly that “He who denies me before men, I will deny before the Father”. Now Jews and Muslims deny Christ. Is it not that simple? It is of course your perogative to think otherwise, but if you do, you are fooling yourself in thinking you are a Christian.
Now if you think as I do, that if people do not embrace Christ and His Church, that they will be lost for eternity, is it more charitable to tell them what they want to hear and spare their feelings, or to tell them what you beleive they must know?
Your attitude, that “God reveals himself in different ways” to everyone is not only heretical (God reveals Himself through His Church), but it is contrary to the very idea that there even is anything that can be called “true”. Think about it.
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Alisa
Guest
So, Mulligan, not only am I engaged in heretical thinking, but I am “fooling myself if I think I’m a Christian.” Listen to yourself, Mulligan. I simply cannot fathom such arrogance and such a narrow view of things. Can we leave some things in God’s hands here?
I did see one thing we agreed on in your post, though, but now I don’t remember what it was. I still haven’t mastered highlighting the comments of others, or cutting/pasting, or however one does it!
Alisa
I did see one thing we agreed on in your post, though, but now I don’t remember what it was. I still haven’t mastered highlighting the comments of others, or cutting/pasting, or however one does it!
Alisa
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mulligan59
Guest
Alisa,
I share your deficiency for cutting and pasting. Probably the part you agreed with was when I said I had many limitations.
But seriously, if you are going to be a “Christian”, know and understand what Christ actually said. I think that it is rather arrogant to substitute our own thoughts for Christ’s words. And I really hate to point this out because I’m starting to like your spunk, but what you’re saying isn’t “argument”. You’re just calling me names. Look, it is in God’s hands. All I’m saying is that we have a duty to take God at His word. I’m not doing His thinking or His judging. I’m just reminding you of what the Gospels really teach. And it is a serious message. It isn’t “happy talk”.
I think you said you’re on the West Coast. But I should go to bed. Maybe hear from you in the morning.
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elts1956
Guest
I have always greatly admired the Jewish religion. Without it, where would we Christians be? Not in a Christian world, I suspect. But then whether we are in a Christian world these days is moot. But I digress. I do not judge those who are not Catholic. I pray for them and hope they will find their path to God. In other words, I leave this issue in God’s hands. He loves more compassionately, greater and more deeply than I ever can.
For me morality comes from within. I have said before on one of these threads, I would rather “judge”, for lack of a better word, someone according to their values and morals than according to what religion they belong to.
However, I will have to admit, I do feel an inner discord, an uneasiness, with the Faith of those who do not belong to the Catholic Faith.
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Alisa
Guest
Well and decently spoken, Elts!
And Mulligan, let’s be friends. God loves us both,and we love Him – what is more important than that?
Yes, I live in a little town on the Oregon Coast, it’s only 8:27 p.m. here!
Alisa
And Mulligan, let’s be friends. God loves us both,and we love Him – what is more important than that?
Yes, I live in a little town on the Oregon Coast, it’s only 8:27 p.m. here!
Alisa
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elts1956
Guest
Love Oregon. Have only “passed through” once or twice. Just think, if I lived in Oregon, I could stay up at least another six hours and post on CAF. It is 2:33 a.m. here in IL.
Thanks for the support Alisa. :hug1:
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mapleoak
Guest
I have read all of these documents. You should probably read them again, as it seems you have gravely misinterpreted them.
Of course. I also understand that the parts that are not in parenthesis are not what the Church has said.
Do you believe the Catholic Church is teaching heresy when it has said this:
"The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection."
or
“…it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”
further, do you understand the following?:
“outside the Church there is no salvation”
Your conclusion does not logically follow.
So the Catholic Church no longer has the same Magisterium? Where did it go, to your own personal Church? Since you claim the Holy Catholic Church is capable of teaching error as you claim was done in Vatican II, would this be an example of defending your personal church?:
Was Jesus lying when He said; I say unto you, that you are Peter; and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatsoever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Lastly, does your church believe that the Vicar of Christ on earth in the Holy Catholic Church is capable of teaching error in matters of faith and morals? That an official council of the Roman Catholic Church is capable of heresy in regards to faith and morals?
If you feel you know better than the Church, remember, the Church also teaches that pride is one of the seven capital sins.
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Ockham
Guest
(emphasis mine)
Washington D.C., May 13, 2009 / 06:03 am (CNA).- Returning to Rome after addressing the National Catholic Prayer Breakfast in Washington, Archbishop Raymond F. Burke said in an interview that a Catholic who knew Obama’s “clearly announced” agenda on life issues and marriage could not have voted for him “in clear conscience.”
The archbishop’s comments came in response to questions from Kathryn Jean Lopez of National Review Online during his flight from Washington, D.C. to Rome.
In her interview, Lopez remarked that Archbishop Burke had seemingly made very clear that Catholic voters “collaborated with evil” when they voted for Obama.
If one is a Catholic who voted for Obama, she asked, “do you have to confess this now that Mexico City, embryo-destructive funding, among other things, have happened?”
The archbishop responded that if a Catholic “knowingly and deliberately” votes for a person who is in favor of “the most grievous violations of the natural moral law,” then he has "formally cooperated in a grave evil and must confess his serious sin.
“Since President Obama clearly announced, during the election campaign, his anti-life and anti-family agenda, a Catholic who knew his agenda regarding, for example, procured abortion, embryonic-stem-cell research, and same-sex marriage, could not have voted for him with a clear conscience.”
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15968
Washington D.C., May 13, 2009 / 06:03 am (CNA).- Returning to Rome after addressing the National Catholic Prayer Breakfast in Washington, Archbishop Raymond F. Burke said in an interview that a Catholic who knew Obama’s “clearly announced” agenda on life issues and marriage could not have voted for him “in clear conscience.”
The archbishop’s comments came in response to questions from Kathryn Jean Lopez of National Review Online during his flight from Washington, D.C. to Rome.
In her interview, Lopez remarked that Archbishop Burke had seemingly made very clear that Catholic voters “collaborated with evil” when they voted for Obama.
If one is a Catholic who voted for Obama, she asked, “do you have to confess this now that Mexico City, embryo-destructive funding, among other things, have happened?”
The archbishop responded that if a Catholic “knowingly and deliberately” votes for a person who is in favor of “the most grievous violations of the natural moral law,” then he has "formally cooperated in a grave evil and must confess his serious sin.
“Since President Obama clearly announced, during the election campaign, his anti-life and anti-family agenda, a Catholic who knew his agenda regarding, for example, procured abortion, embryonic-stem-cell research, and same-sex marriage, could not have voted for him with a clear conscience.”
catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=15968
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mapleoak
Guest
Truth is seemingly hard for many to accept. But then again, the Way is narrow.
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LindaSK
Guest
I must agree with Ockham. I have discussed this very same thing with my priest on a number of occasions. (Obama has certainly given us sufficient occasions.) I believe Father would agree with Archbishop Burke. He cited an accurate list of Obama’s agenda and ‘accomplishments’. Obama is not finished yet, either. “Well, the first thing I’d do as President is sign the Freedom of Choice Act [FOCA] …On this fundamental issue, I will not yield …and Planned Parenthood will not yield.” - Barack Obama at Planned Parenthood banquet, July 2007. We may not see it presented as one complete bill, but, I believe we are already seeing fragments of it - for example, his proposed rescinding of the conscience laws protecting medical personnel. The revoking of parental notification for abortion, I fear, may well be a proposal of his in the not-too-distant future. Imagine the ramifications…
As Ockham, Father, and the Archbishop have said, Obama’s pro-abortion and anti-family stance and actions to date are no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention. I did not vote for Obama. But, I am quite sure that if I had, I’d have headed to the confessional by now. I’d probably be kicking myself all the way! At least, I’d like to think my conscience would prompt me to at this point.
I continue to pray for Obama and all those placed in positions that can effect change. I pray for an awakening of conscience and a return of the dignity of all life, marriage and family. I pray for us all. What America does morally and financially has an incredible impact on the rest of the world.
As Ockham, Father, and the Archbishop have said, Obama’s pro-abortion and anti-family stance and actions to date are no surprise to anyone who has been paying attention. I did not vote for Obama. But, I am quite sure that if I had, I’d have headed to the confessional by now. I’d probably be kicking myself all the way! At least, I’d like to think my conscience would prompt me to at this point.
I continue to pray for Obama and all those placed in positions that can effect change. I pray for an awakening of conscience and a return of the dignity of all life, marriage and family. I pray for us all. What America does morally and financially has an incredible impact on the rest of the world.
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Alisa
Guest
“The Way is narrow” only if we are wearing blinkers and looking only in one direction. We disagree with others. Let’s at least respect their points of view. All human beings are loved by God. He has revealed Himself to others according to their time and place.
Alisa
Alisa
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