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JoshuaIsLord
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ah yes, I had forgotten that one.
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midori
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Remember that the Bar Association is a guild. 
They get to control who gets in and who doesn’t. If there’s too many attorneys, the bar gets tightened up a bit to help more people fail… I think I heard last time there was, like, a 40-something percent passage rate for the bar exam. (???) They might have gotten their facts wrong. Usually it’s in the 70’s, though.
DH went to law school in DFW. We basically dropped off the face of the earth for a bit while he was in school. He worked full time and went to school at night. The day students sneered a bit at the night students, who generally tended to be older and more established in other careers, but ultimately, a law degree is a law degree. And DH was able to graduate with zero debt, because we were both working full time. Another attorney friend of ours took out a student loan for $100k and treated being a law student like a job. But she still had $100k of debt hanging over her head… and that was from 20+ years ago. Some schools it may be more.
They get to control who gets in and who doesn’t. If there’s too many attorneys, the bar gets tightened up a bit to help more people fail… I think I heard last time there was, like, a 40-something percent passage rate for the bar exam. (???) They might have gotten their facts wrong. Usually it’s in the 70’s, though.DH went to law school in DFW. We basically dropped off the face of the earth for a bit while he was in school. He worked full time and went to school at night. The day students sneered a bit at the night students, who generally tended to be older and more established in other careers, but ultimately, a law degree is a law degree. And DH was able to graduate with zero debt, because we were both working full time. Another attorney friend of ours took out a student loan for $100k and treated being a law student like a job. But she still had $100k of debt hanging over her head… and that was from 20+ years ago. Some schools it may be more.
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midori
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When he was in law school, he had a (other fields would call it a practicum-- what do the law students call it?) where he got to work in a big corporate firm for a period of time. It was the sort of place where your fresh law grads would expect to slave for about 5 or 10 years in paperwork before finally proving themselves sufficiently to get the decent cases. He talked about how rude and abrupt all the attorneys were with their secretaries, and how, just by being a decent human being, the secretaries totally loved him and enjoyed his company. So there are a few big, prestigious firms… but the atmosphere in those sorts of places is stressful and toxic for sure. In law, it’s generally considered bad manners to change your firm more than once or twice in your whole career; otherwise, you get a reputation for hopping around and instability. And that’s not good. But that’s the sort of career that a lot of his fellow grads ended up getting absorbed into… and I can see how it would suck your soul dry pretty fast, between the long hours and the stress and the bad attitudes. Making $100k a year isn’t that awesome if you’re pulling an 80-hour workweek. I think most attorneys in the DFW could expect to make about $40-$60k/year… which isn’t such great compensation in exchange for cratering your family relationships. And law school led to a lot of divorces in his class. And every time he has a conference, he’s amazed at how many alcoholics there seem to be…
He ended up getting hired on by a guy about 100 miles away from our stomping grounds. We discovered it was pretty cool to be a big fish in a small pond. You get a lot more opportunities a lot more quickly. His co-grads were still slaving away at paperwork in back offices before they’d be allowed to touch a case in the courtroom, but he got cut loose to sink or swim within his first couple of weeks, after a bit of supervision and monitoring to make sure he at least had the basics of competence.
In a big area-- Houston, Galveston, DFW, etc-- you have people who have put in their 20/30/40 years, and now it’s “their turn” for various positions. Or they come from certain families with wealth/power/influence. It can be hard for an ordinary person to break into elected positions or sit on councils or whatever. I know he was really annoyed with one fellow student whose scores weren’t so great, but she still got a job clerking for a state supreme court justice straight out of law school for good money, just because she happened to be born to the “right” family. But in smaller towns and rural areas, there’s a lack of qualified candidates for things. So you can be a judge, or a DA, or a County Attorney, or whatever, within a relatively short time, if you prove yourself competent and reliable. And even if you’re not, sometimes you can slip in…
Being an attorney in a big city is very difficult. Being an attorney in a small town is much more preferable. At least, from my experience on the spousal side of things.
He ended up getting hired on by a guy about 100 miles away from our stomping grounds. We discovered it was pretty cool to be a big fish in a small pond. You get a lot more opportunities a lot more quickly. His co-grads were still slaving away at paperwork in back offices before they’d be allowed to touch a case in the courtroom, but he got cut loose to sink or swim within his first couple of weeks, after a bit of supervision and monitoring to make sure he at least had the basics of competence.
In a big area-- Houston, Galveston, DFW, etc-- you have people who have put in their 20/30/40 years, and now it’s “their turn” for various positions. Or they come from certain families with wealth/power/influence. It can be hard for an ordinary person to break into elected positions or sit on councils or whatever. I know he was really annoyed with one fellow student whose scores weren’t so great, but she still got a job clerking for a state supreme court justice straight out of law school for good money, just because she happened to be born to the “right” family. But in smaller towns and rural areas, there’s a lack of qualified candidates for things. So you can be a judge, or a DA, or a County Attorney, or whatever, within a relatively short time, if you prove yourself competent and reliable. And even if you’re not, sometimes you can slip in…
Being an attorney in a big city is very difficult. Being an attorney in a small town is much more preferable. At least, from my experience on the spousal side of things.
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angel12
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Of course a Catholic can be a trial lawyer and remain moral. Show me a profession where there are no immoral people.
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Hereiam
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Saying trial lawyersrs are all bad is like saying the office of the President of the United States is bad because of the indefensible lack of morality of those who havre occupied the office like Bill Clinton and Donald Trump.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
As an engineer and PTO bar myself, I guarantee that most if not all the other engineers studying patent law are going to be just as un-“liberal” as you, plus you’re going to be so busy you won’t have time to worry about it.
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Cthompson
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This thread was politics-free for so long, and it’s gone
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LilyM
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Another lawyer here (mileage varies - I’m not in the US).
Like a previous poster, I started out in a big city where there was plenty of competition, pay was relatively low snd cost of living high.
I’ve moved to a country area and a more generalised practice where I’m fairly autonomous.
You can expect to, at least while finding your feet, put in a lot of hours. Whether private or government, you will be expected to do a great deal of work. You will also be expected to spend as little as.possible by way of time (as clients hate being billed too many hours) and resources (some companies watch every paperclip and sheet of paper you use like a hawk).
You will be under heavy scrutiny and not infrequent criticism, from colleagues, judges and clients. Not always justified and definitely not always sensitively-delivered.
My best tip is to find good supportive colleagues and mentors where you can, and remind yourself of your achievements and successes to coumteract the times when you are criticised.
Like a previous poster, I started out in a big city where there was plenty of competition, pay was relatively low snd cost of living high.
I’ve moved to a country area and a more generalised practice where I’m fairly autonomous.
You can expect to, at least while finding your feet, put in a lot of hours. Whether private or government, you will be expected to do a great deal of work. You will also be expected to spend as little as.possible by way of time (as clients hate being billed too many hours) and resources (some companies watch every paperclip and sheet of paper you use like a hawk).
You will be under heavy scrutiny and not infrequent criticism, from colleagues, judges and clients. Not always justified and definitely not always sensitively-delivered.
My best tip is to find good supportive colleagues and mentors where you can, and remind yourself of your achievements and successes to coumteract the times when you are criticised.
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TheLittleLady
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Catholics in the law are so vital that each year the Diocese has a special “Red Mass” specifically for those in the legal professions. St Thomas More, pray for us!
Tis_Bearself
Patron
The “Red Mass” in DC is pretty cool. Popular with the bar too, you have to go very early to get a seat. The AG comes to it sometimes. I think the last time I was there, Loretta Lynch did show up.
Occasionally a VP or maybe even a President goes to it, but that’s a huge security headache.
Occasionally a VP or maybe even a President goes to it, but that’s a huge security headache.
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casslean
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Sadly, that isn’t an exaggeration. We have an articling program here in Canada before we are even called to the Bar. During my articling year, my average work day would start at 6:30 am and end around 10:00 pm. On weekends I gave myself a break and let myself roll into the office around 9:00 am and went home at 7:00 or so, unless I was really swamped.
And despite that, I was still criticized because on two (only two) occasions, I had to tell a more senior lawyer (by like, three years) that I couldn’t take an assignment because I couldn’t complete it in the 18-hour turnaround they were requesting. And then in the next breath was criticized for having an insufficient work-life balance.
At the end of the year, I wasn’t hired back because it was felt I wasn’t a “good fit” - I was the best billing articled clerk they had and better than most of the junior associates, but I wasn’t a “good fit” because I didn’t subscribe to the rampant drug and alcohol culture among certain of the lawyers and didn’t constantly complain about how unfair it was that I had to put in so many hours.
And despite that, I was still criticized because on two (only two) occasions, I had to tell a more senior lawyer (by like, three years) that I couldn’t take an assignment because I couldn’t complete it in the 18-hour turnaround they were requesting. And then in the next breath was criticized for having an insufficient work-life balance.
At the end of the year, I wasn’t hired back because it was felt I wasn’t a “good fit” - I was the best billing articled clerk they had and better than most of the junior associates, but I wasn’t a “good fit” because I didn’t subscribe to the rampant drug and alcohol culture among certain of the lawyers and didn’t constantly complain about how unfair it was that I had to put in so many hours.
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Cthompson
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I’ve heard of this before in the law field. Crazy! Glad to see you you didn’t fall into
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phil19034
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I work for one of the largest law firms in the world, and I can tell you that many of the associates are not happy people. They bust their butts for 5-7 years and either get let go, or if they are lucky get a nice in house job with a corporation.
When they move to the corporation, they take a nice pay cut but usually get a better life compared to the law firm. Then, the few connected ones actually get to make partner, which is hard to do without being able to bring in revenue.
Depending on how old you are, my suggestion is to become a paralegal first for a few years and make sure you really want to be a lawyer.
I knew one associate who came from a rich family… she hated it so much that she quit mid year and decided to go back to grad school in order to start all over again… But mom & dad were still willing to pay for her continued schooling, so she wasn’t too worried.
BTW - one of the best days at work was seeing an associate (litigator) from my floor standing in the confession line with me at our Cathedral
God Bless
When they move to the corporation, they take a nice pay cut but usually get a better life compared to the law firm. Then, the few connected ones actually get to make partner, which is hard to do without being able to bring in revenue.
Depending on how old you are, my suggestion is to become a paralegal first for a few years and make sure you really want to be a lawyer.
I knew one associate who came from a rich family… she hated it so much that she quit mid year and decided to go back to grad school in order to start all over again… But mom & dad were still willing to pay for her continued schooling, so she wasn’t too worried.
BTW - one of the best days at work was seeing an associate (litigator) from my floor standing in the confession line with me at our Cathedral
God Bless
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Hereiam
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Actually that was a pretty apolitical statement, calling into question the darlings of the right and the left.
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Seeksadvice
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I am, not yet, a Catholic. I am also an attorney.
“Trial lawyer” is a very, very broad term. As a prosecutor, one is a “trial lawyer,” unless you want to settle everything for a slap on the wrist. Indeed, this Christmas season, I’ll likely be giving up a lot of events, etc., to prepare for trials stacked around Christmas.
Not all “trial lawyers” are the ambulance chasing, vexatious litigators who look like they tried to drown themselves in a vat of hair gel.
“Trial lawyer” is a very, very broad term. As a prosecutor, one is a “trial lawyer,” unless you want to settle everything for a slap on the wrist. Indeed, this Christmas season, I’ll likely be giving up a lot of events, etc., to prepare for trials stacked around Christmas.
Not all “trial lawyers” are the ambulance chasing, vexatious litigators who look like they tried to drown themselves in a vat of hair gel.
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LilyM
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You look at any high-stress, long-hours, perfectionistic and socially-isolating profession, and law is not the only one, you will find a lot of people self-medicating with drugs or alcohol.casslean:
I’ve heard of this before in the law field. Crazy! Glad to see you you didn’t fall into
It doesn’t help, for example, that confidentiality means you can’t always unburden, except possibly to a colleague or a shrink. And of course lawyers are often made to feel that admitting to stress or burnout - or even mistakes - is career suicide or otherwise unacceptable.
I have often thought that regular checks of mental as well as physical wellbeing should be compulsory in professions like law - maybe require them as part of obtaining professional insurance.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
In the United States, if you proposed this, you would immediately have a bazillion lawyers filing lawsuits and protesting it as an infringement of their rights.
There is a very, very real probability that legal employers would use the results of these checks as reasons to “lay people off” or “tell people they don’t have a future at this firm” (you pretty much have to commit a felony to get outright fired from a lot of places as they do not want to give you ammo for a lawsuit) and it would deter those who need help from seeking it. Lawyers not seeking help for substance abuse, depression, etc. is a problem the bar has been trying to address for some years and encourage them to get help. Making them pass a compulsory mental check to get insurance is going to have the exact opposite effect.
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Scowler
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JoshuaIsLord gave us a few very funny jokes, which I planned to forward to a sick friend of mine (he has myeloma), to give him a good laugh. Unfortunately they were summarily deleted. If you have them, please send them to me in a PM.
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midori
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I thought the new forums were unmoderated? How did things get deleted?
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StephieNorthCo
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Moderation is done in a different way on the new fora. We are expected to act in a civilized and respectful manner. Read the Terms of Service for details.
Any member may flag a post for moderator action. That is two edged… if indeed that post is in violation, it will be removed, and the perpetrator may be disciplined. If the post is deemed ok, and the flag was done “out of spite”, the flagger may be disciplined.
Blessings,
Stephie
Any member may flag a post for moderator action. That is two edged… if indeed that post is in violation, it will be removed, and the perpetrator may be disciplined. If the post is deemed ok, and the flag was done “out of spite”, the flagger may be disciplined.
Blessings,
Stephie
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