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rcwitness
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Good post
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Wannano
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Yes rc, you have a good handle on it. I have no arguement with how you presented this because you present the whole spectrum of the basics. I do react to those who try to substantiate infant baptism by indicating that whole households were baptized, as though that means there just HAD to be babies present in that household. A much stronger arguement is the one you present which is that it is interpreted from Tradition.There isn’t one. You know that. Just as there isn’t one that expresses that Infants are not to be Baptized. There has to be interpretation. A Bible alone (explicit reference) arguement is a wash (no pun intended).
I could demand the same for the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. It’s not explicitly expressed. Some interpret Sola Scriptura as Biblical, while others rely on Tradition not in Scripture to for doctrine. We use Tradition to interpret Infant Baptism. Sola Scripture rejects Tradition to assert Believers Baptism.
When I hear the “whole household logic” I (in my somewhat warped sense of humor) wonder if that phrase had been used if people back then would have considered the family dog a member of the family like so many seem to do today. I hear people refer to the family dog with endearment that I am not sure their own children were subjected to. I am sure there are those who would love for the dog to be baptized along with the whole household, and there apparently are churches who have pet services.
I am almost positive I will end up in the doghouse for presenting this!
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Wannano
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Very interesting summarization. A little fuzzy though between Antioch Christians and the establishment of Catholic. I would love to see actual documentation that confirms the procedures of this step.
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rcwitness
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Right. The household example is circumstantial at best. I think there is a case for both camps. I like the Infant Baptism case slightly more, but it also must be taken with the reality of belief absolutely necessary at the coming of reason and awareness. Infant Baptism has an everlasting mark and accomplishment, and also a condition of belief in the message of Baptism. It’s not Magic.
I think it’s likely that infants were Baptized in these households, but I don’t use that as an argument because there may not have been and the practice is not dependant on them. What it is more dependant on, is a sound understanding of BOTH the meaning of Baptism and the relationship/responsibility/authority we have with our children.
It’s a beautiful Tradition (Sacred) when parents honor it. It becomes a complicated dilemma when parents live double minded and neglect the faith. I think if the separated Christian brothers and sisters would work as one body, we could eliminate so much of the complicated dilemmas. We could use their unified help to admonish one another! The enemy gets an upper hand when causing division.
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Wannano
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I agree in principle with what you have here. I have long said I could see the reasoning for practicing infant baptism if confirmation was completely voluntary and not forced upon Johnny because the time has come. Each person must realize their own personal conviction in affirming what their parents introduced them to or it can just be another formality.
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Bookcat
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The Church was established by Christ. It was simply the names that were attached to those within the Church and to that same Church that are being discussed above.
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Bookcat
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Truth_Faith13
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One good point has already been made which is most people tend to stay in the traditions, culture, religion they are born into.
Anyone who does research into it, it could be anything from a belief they are uncomfortable with, to please an disapproving family member, even own selfish desires and not wanting to give something up. Some churches are more social clubs too and people may be more drawn to the “action”
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Tommy999
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To our Catholic friends,
Just curious…
When it comes to Confirmation, is it a voluntary thing or something forced upon someone by their parents? I don’t know many Catholics in real life and was wondering this based on Wannano’s comment that I bolded above. it got me to thinking.
In my opinion, the purpose for Catholic Confirmation sounds a lot like what I would consider to be ‘Believer’s baptism’ in some Protestant faith traditions in that the person makes a public proclamation of faith in front of the local congregation.
That is, unless it is forced or just a cultural act that is done at a certain time whether the person is ready or not.
For that matter, I guess a profession of faith in an evangelical church could be forced as well, although I don’t think I’ve ever known anyone who personally was forced to do it. I would think if they did, it wouldn’t have been a sincere proclamation in the first place.
Can someone elaborate as to whether Catholic Confirmations are voluntary affirmations of faith and allegiance to Christ and the Church or is just something that is culturally done to appease one’s parents or grandparents?
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Wannano
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I am interested in responses from any infant baptizing church. Also I wonder if churches put on confirmation classes when the child reaches a certain age, sort of like ok, when your 12 your supposed to go to Confirmation.
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Bookcat
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The person must not forced.
And yes it involves a continued profession of ones Faith.
Such is affirmed all the time and renewed every Sunday at Mass and in a special way every Easter.
Confirmation happens at various ages.
By the way Confirmation is given to infants as well in the Eastern Catholic Churches…
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Wannano
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So am I right when I take what you presented to mean the child is not confirmed until he asks to be? It is not a set time frame.
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Horton
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I was raised in a very mainline Protestant church. I was baptized at 3 weeks old and made my profession of faith when I was about 15. My profession of faith was freely given. I don’t believe there was an “age” to do it, but just when you felt ready. There was a short series of classes to take as you had to know why you were making the profession of faith.
I have no idea how profession of faith is done now but they still practice infant baptism as well as believer’s baptism. The church building of this church is fairly new and a couple of years ago they decided to put in a dunking pool. Prior to that all baptisms were done by sprinkling. This church has also watered down it message and method of delivery of that message. It feels and looks a lot more like a huge non-denominational church rather than the church I grew up in. They have an open communion, a coffee shop in the lobby, and it is more of a social event rather than a time to worship our Lord. My nephew, who was baptized as an infant, decided it would be cool to get dunked. So the same minister who baptized him the first time baptized him again.
This is one more reason I believe so strongly in the Catholic Church. A validly baptized person is baptized. End of story.
As far as confirmation there is a cultural norm. In my diocese it is when a child is a junior or senior in high school. I don’t believe it is set in stone nor is it a rule or law that it must be done at that age. There have been more than a few in RCIA who weren’t confirmed as students but decided to do so after age 18. I’m sure there are parents who may “force” their kids to go through confirmation but the Church does not.
I have no idea how profession of faith is done now but they still practice infant baptism as well as believer’s baptism. The church building of this church is fairly new and a couple of years ago they decided to put in a dunking pool. Prior to that all baptisms were done by sprinkling. This church has also watered down it message and method of delivery of that message. It feels and looks a lot more like a huge non-denominational church rather than the church I grew up in. They have an open communion, a coffee shop in the lobby, and it is more of a social event rather than a time to worship our Lord. My nephew, who was baptized as an infant, decided it would be cool to get dunked. So the same minister who baptized him the first time baptized him again.
This is one more reason I believe so strongly in the Catholic Church. A validly baptized person is baptized. End of story.
As far as confirmation there is a cultural norm. In my diocese it is when a child is a junior or senior in high school. I don’t believe it is set in stone nor is it a rule or law that it must be done at that age. There have been more than a few in RCIA who weren’t confirmed as students but decided to do so after age 18. I’m sure there are parents who may “force” their kids to go through confirmation but the Church does not.
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Bookcat
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No that is not what I mean. Different Bishops set different ages. The persons though of course are not forced. They freely continue to profess their Faith and no they are not “forced” that would be contrary to the Christian way and no one can be forced to receive a Sacrament anyhow!
Grab and atheist and baptize him…and he will just be an atheist with a wet head. Not a baptized Christian.
And as I noted even infants receive Confirmation right after baptism in the Eastern Catholic Churches.
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CourtingTex
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As a out of the closet, so to speak, considering Catholicism person years ago, having a number of Catholic friends and non religious friends also ---- the decision to have my loyalty where it has been over these years was based significantly and to share sacred experiences here on the forums, to not become a Catholic has zero, nothing to do with indifference, hatred, etc in the train of thought some folks maybe thinking.
My conviction has been to grow into being the Christian person Jesus Christ would have me be, recognizing years ago, prior to become LDS, I was on the way out of religious life, religion, church attendance and committment, particularly in light of want I see today, the war of words/etc with the purpose of doing want (or having a agenda if that is the case)???
I could continue, nonetheless I hope my point is not confusing. Love and respect of all, whether seeking Christianity or no religion at all remains a value of mine.
My conviction has been to grow into being the Christian person Jesus Christ would have me be, recognizing years ago, prior to become LDS, I was on the way out of religious life, religion, church attendance and committment, particularly in light of want I see today, the war of words/etc with the purpose of doing want (or having a agenda if that is the case)???
I could continue, nonetheless I hope my point is not confusing. Love and respect of all, whether seeking Christianity or no religion at all remains a value of mine.
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Peter_J
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I don’t know what the heck you’re quoting, but I’ve responded to this sort of thing before. I don’t particularly want to do so again, because you may just use it as a platform to talk about “Once Catholic Always Catholic”, say that it’s a Church teaching, etc. etc.
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CourtingTex
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So since I have been labeled and I am not offended at all ---- really desiring a non agenda response, please?
What should do now or is hell where I am going to be or something else/etc? Seeking factual truthful unbiased answer(s), particularly for our neighbors who are not Christian at all, who continues to observe, seeking understanding/etc. Sincerely wanting perspective on this matter for myself.
Happy Holidays.
What should do now or is hell where I am going to be or something else/etc? Seeking factual truthful unbiased answer(s), particularly for our neighbors who are not Christian at all, who continues to observe, seeking understanding/etc. Sincerely wanting perspective on this matter for myself.
Happy Holidays.
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Tommy999
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Thanks, Bookcat.
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rcwitness
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catholic.com/quickquestions/what-is-the-correct-age-for-confirmation
As for the United States, it’s 16 yrs.
I appreciate this age. I think it’s good to be formed in the faith and approaching adulthood.
Faith formation (CCD) starts around 6yrs and continues through High School. So here in the States (and in the Latin Rite) Confirmation is given towards the end.
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