In this case, your opinion is not conducive with the teachings of the Church as outlined in paragraph 2267 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where it clearly states that in modern societies, the need for the death penalty to protect its citizens is “rare, if not nonexistent”Don’t confuse a debate about crime statistics with the discussion of Church teaching on capital punishment. The topic is whether Catholics may support the death penalty. And the answer is that they may. And my opinion is that they should.
Ender
I am not confusing anything.I was responding to a post. It is clear what your opinion is. It is my opinion that we should not.Don’t confuse a debate about crime statistics with the discussion of Church teaching on capital punishment. The topic is whether Catholics may support the death penalty. And the answer is that they may. And my opinion is that they should.
Ender
And the Church has clearly stated that Catholics are free, in good conscience, to support the death penalty. I dont, Ender does and both of us are in line with the Teachings of Our Church.In this case, your opinion is not conducive with the teachings of the Church as outlined in paragraph 2267 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, where it clearly states that in modern societies, the need for the death penalty to protect its citizens is “rare, if not nonexistent”
But does it say you are free to support it under all conditions?And the Church has clearly stated that Catholics are free, in good conscience, to support the death penalty. I dont, Ender does and both of us are in line with the Teachings of Our Church.
It leaves it up to each individuals judgement. If the Church wanted to ban the death peanlty in ALL cases, which is what you and I support, they could clearly state so. However i dont beleive they have the power to do this as it would overturn 2,000 years of teachings which would in turn open up a pandoras box of conflicts in the Church as we argued what other teahcings should they cast aside?But does it say you are free to support it under all conditions?
Ah, I don’t think I can agree with this; in the sense that there could be examples of countries with the death penalty where it’s use clearly violated Catholic teaching, or even, perhaps, Catholic teaching about the death penalty. In such cases, wouldn’t the Catholic be obliged to not support it.It leaves it up to each individuals judgement. If the Church wanted to ban the death peanlty in ALL cases, which is what you and I support, they could clearly state so. However i dont beleive they have the power to do this as it would overturn 2,000 years of teachings which would in turn open up a pandoras box of conflicts in the Church as we argued what other teahcings should they cast aside?
Again as to the question of he OP the answer is a resounding YES.
The question here is not whether the death penalty can be applied unjustly but whether Catholics may support its use where appropriate. This is no more an objection to the use of capital punishment than to life in prison without parole - which can also be applied unjustly - and does not contradict the point estesbob was making.Ah, I don’t think I can agree with this; in the sense that there could be examples of countries with the death penalty where it’s use clearly violated Catholic teaching, or even, perhaps, Catholic teaching about the death penalty. In such cases, wouldn’t the Catholic be obliged to not support it.
But when a person asks - can I support the death penalty as a Catholic, it is a general question. The answer is going to be general too. Not really very useful.The question here is not whether the death penalty can be applied unjustly but whether Catholics may support its use where appropriate. This is no more an objection to the use of capital punishment than to life in prison without parole - which can also be applied unjustly - and does not contradict the point estesbob was making.
Ender
The Pope could not have been more SPECIFIC. He said Catholics can support the Death Penalty. He said this in the context of who a Catholic could vote for. I dont know how more “useful” he can get than that.But when a person asks - can I support the death penalty as a Catholic, it is a general question. The answer is going to be general too. Not really very useful.
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I didn’t say he should have said more. I don’t think he could as far as the principles go; I suppose he could publish a list to condemn or support each nation’s use, but that could be a big problem in many ways. Although I think at times Popes have condemned some in extreme cases.The Pope could not have been more SPECIFIC. He said Catholics can support the Death Penalty. He said this in the context of who a Catholic could vote for. I dont know how more “useful” he can get than that.
A, Catholic a voter is free to vote for a pro-death penalty canidate regardless of how they reached that decision… OTH they can NOT vote of a pro-abortion canidate regardless of what kind of introspection may lead them to beleive it is proper.I didn’t say he should have said more. I don’t think he could as far as the principles go; I suppose he could publish a list to condemn or support each nation’s use, but that could be a big problem in many ways. Although I think at times Popes have condemned some in extreme cases.
But now the burden is on the individual to be sure that the specific use of the death penalty is indeed really just.
That is, the Pope has made the burden for the individual in such questions quite heavy. The voter cannot just look to whether it is possible to support the death penalty and then feel confident in voting for a pro-death penalty candidate. He has to ask - is this being done is a way that is just? What are the principles being used? Is the system corrupt, is it fair? Is it serving society well? Could the same ends be reached through other means and how? And so on.
So in a nation where the death penalty was used to silence political prisoners without trial? It would be ok to support that? Do you actually think the Catholic Church would support that because they say the death penalty may sometimes be acceptable? Get real!A, Catholic a voter is free to vote for a pro-death penalty canidate regardless of how they reached that decision… OTH they can NOT vote of a pro-abortion canidate regardless of what kind of introspection may lead them to beleive it is proper.
Just for clarification as I missed it somewhere in this thread, where is the exact place you are pulling from to say that we are able to use the death penalty for ‘justice’ purposes?This is another area where the Catechism is unhelpful. Punishment should be understood in the context of justice; this is in fact what the Church teaches. What 2267 essentially says is that justice for past crimes is not important; what is important is preventing the next one.
I am not going to go down the “reduction to the ridicoulous” rabbit hole with you. I think the OPs question has been thouroughly answered.So in a nation where the death penalty was used to silence political prisoners without trial? It would be ok to support that? Do you actually think the Catholic Church would support that because they say the death penalty may sometimes be acceptable? Get real!
Where your heart and mind is ALWAYS matters in cases like these as that is the level to which Christ brought things (such as lust as opposed to adultery). You do make a good point though, this has been a long thread. I would still love to see the info ender was pulling from as to the “justice” of capital punishment.A, Catholic a voter is free to vote for a pro-death penalty canidate regardless of how they reached that decision…
The actual practice of capital punishment is just and does not contradict any other Catholic beliefs.I don’t think I have actually seen anyone argue that its actual practice is just and does not contradict any other Catholic beliefs.
In the US - the way it is done there. How it is managed legally, the kinds of decisions that are made, what we know about the number of mistakes that happen, whether it is necessary in the way demanded by the CCC…The actual practice of capital punishment is just and does not contradict any other Catholic beliefs.
Ender
CCC 2266: *The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense. *where is the exact place you are pulling from to say that we are able to use the death penalty for ‘justice’ purposes?
The law, nevertheless, is clear that for public prosperity it is to the interest of all that virtue-and justice especially, which is the mother of all virtues-should be practiced (Leo XIII)As far as “Justice is not the mother of all virtues”… you wrong… love is…justice is encompassed by love.
The whole concept of deterrence is that the fear of punishment keeps (some) people from committing crimes and that the greater the punishment, the greater the deterrence. It seems odd that we can believe this and simultaneously believe that the greatest of all punishments does not have a greater deterrence than a lesser punishment.As far as a deterant… if a ganagster was locked up permanently, that could serve as just as much of a deterant as the death penalty to other gangsters.
Other than the one about the inherent dignity of the human personThe actual practice of capital punishment is just and does not contradict any other Catholic beliefs.
Ender
When discussing the death penalty there are two issues that need to be kept separate. The first is the question of whether it is moral to use as punishment; the second is whether its use in a particular situation is just. We look to the Church to answer the first question and it is the first question alone I am addressing. I personally don’t care to get involved in a discussion about the condition of the penal system in different countries because this does not affect the moral question in any way. The basic question is about the Church’s stand on capital punishment.In the US - the way it is done there. How it is managed legally, the kinds of decisions that are made, what we know about the number of mistakes that happen, whether it is necessary in the way demanded by the CCC…
You made a specific claim. My response was to clarify exactly what my position is. The arguments will come.PS - saying something is not the same as arguing it.