Catholics are not saved by Works

[Fidelis]

Editing problem. Let me try this again:

Originally Posted by **Nick Jones **
The biblical teaching on what saves us leaves no room for boasting, since justification (righteousness) is credited on the basis of faith, and the faith that justifies is given by God to those whom He chooses as a free gift (by grace).

Amen! As I pointed out above, this is what Catholics believe.

So, the whole point James makes is not that faith alone is insufficient, but rather that dead faith is insufficient. Some people insist that because living faith is active (it is made evident by our deeds), then we are saved by faith plus our good deeds. However, such a view clashes with Paul’s teachings on justification.

This line of thinking fails on two important points. The first is that nowhere in the Bible does it say we are saved by “faith alone”. The only place where the words “faith” and “alone” appear together is James 2:24 where it says “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

The second failure point is that James never refers to “dead faith.” He speaks about faith period. No distinction is ever made between “dead faith” and so-called “saving faith”-- the same unmodified word for “faith” is used from beginning to end. The readers of his letter (as are all the first target audience of all the New Testament) are presumably saved Christians (James 2:1). They all have faith. The whole point that James is actually making, then, is that even for those who have faith (i.e. Christians), *without *works it is dead.

Read the whole chapter and see how that makes sense:

1 My brethren, show no partiality as you hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man with gold rings and in fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “Have a seat here, please,” while you say to the poor man, “Stand there,” or, “Sit at my feet,” 4 have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brethren. Has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you, is it not they who drag you into court? 7 Is it not they who blaspheme that honorable name which was invoked over you?

8 If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well. 9 But if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” said also, “Do not kill.” If you do not commit adultery but do kill, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment.

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. 18 But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe–and shudder. **20 Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? **21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. **24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. **

I don’t know how much clearer James could have made himself.

Hope that helps.

 

[ryanoneil]

Some people insist that because living faith is active (it is made evident by our deeds), then we are saved by faith plus our good deeds. However, such a view clashes with Paul’s teachings on justification.

I disagree. Faith justifies initially, but works perfect and complete justification.

Rom. 2:7-13 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek. There is no partiality with God. All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified.

Here Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Peace,

Ryan

 

[VociMike]

The biblical teaching on what saves us leaves no room for boasting, since justification (righteousness) is credited on the basis of faith, and the faith that justifies is given by God to those whom He chooses as a free gift (by grace).

If works are associated with boasting, why isn’t faith also associated with boasting? Is faith forced upon us? If not, then we must also play a role in our own faith. If playing a role in our works leads to boasting, why does playing a role in our faith not likewise lead to boasting?

I truly don’t get it.

 

[RobNY]

“Yeah, but what about…"
You know, of course, Paul is speaking here, not about good works in the sense of fulfilling the ten commandments and avoiding evil, but is talking about the Levitical Law. Please read the entire chapter in context. Same for the other famous “faith alone” proof-text, Romans 3:28.

This is a fruitful place for Catholic discussion.

I would agree with you here, but I’d also offer this interpretation: Paul is also talking about works which try to obligate God in a relationship of strict justice. In this sense all works are inadequate.

If we treat God as if he were our employer, and we were employees, then our works would be done so as to earn a wage. Like Paul says, " A worker’s wage is credited not as a gift, but as something due" (Rom 4:4).

This is exactly the problem with a works-based salvation. What Paul is referring to, I think, is entering into a relationship with God modeled more on employer-employee than Father-son. The employer-employee relationship is entering into an economic, or a legal relationship, where we expect God to reward us based on what we obligate God to give us. But this is impossible. No creature can obligate the creator. Hence, “But when one does not work, yet believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness” (Rom 4:5). I think it is important that this follows Romans 4:4, because Romans 4:4 defines exactly what he is condemning when he condemns works in the next few verses-- he is condemning the legalistic relationship which can never suffice with God. So, when one does not work, i.e., when one does not try to obligate God by one’s works, one can be justified in faith.

This is where I would emphasize Paul’s teaching on divine sonship. I think Paul contrasts two relationships with God. The bad one is the worker/employer one, but the good one is the Father/son one. In Paul’s teaching we are adopted sons of God crying “Abba, Father!” In the context of divine sonship, works are no longer done in order to obligate God to pay you, they are done out of the love a son has for his Father. And in a relationship to God as one of His adopted sons, He looks on our works benevolently and because He is pleased with us, rewards us for what we have done.

“But without faith it is impossible to please him, for anyone who approaches God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him” (Heb 11:5). Our very coming into a relationship with God presupposes that we expect Him to reward us for seeking Him. Because He is a benevolent Father, He does reward us richly for doing this.

This, I think, is a promising way to read the allegedly tension between faith and works.

 

[Fidelis]

I would agree with you here, but I’d also offer this interpretation: Paul is also talking about works which try to obligate God in a relationship of strict justice. In this sense all works are inadequate…

I agree with this line of thinking, of course. It is one that is championed by one of my favorite writers on this topic, Robert Sungenis. His books “Not By Faith Alone” and “How Can I Get To Heaven” are exhaustive and masterful treatments of it.

Yes, it is worth noting: (A) Our good works done under God’s grace are pleasing to him, but at the same time place him under no obligation to reward us for them. He does so because he is a just and loving father. (B) Even though Paul was primarily talking about the Levitical Law, we can, in a sense “put ourselves under the law” when we depend on a system of works-righteousness of our own making (“If I do X and X and X, God must reward me.”).

I will be sure to add those to my little summary.

 

[Nick_Jones]

If works are associated with boasting, why isn’t faith also associated with boasting? Is faith forced upon us? If not, then we must also play a role in our own faith. If playing a role in our works leads to boasting, why does playing a role in our faith not likewise lead to boasting?

I truly don’t get it.

The reason why faith in the finished work of Jesus for our salvation–and in His work alone, precludes all boasting is because it is God who brings the faithful into their faith.
Philip. 2:12-13

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, **for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. **

And faith isn’t forced upon anyone. God acts on people’s will for His purposes. God is able to supernaturally cause hearts that are hardened against Him to become willing to trust in Him, and in Him alone.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The second failure point is that James never refers to “dead faith.” He speaks about faith period. No distinction is ever made between “dead faith” and so-called “saving faith”-- the same unmodified word for “faith” is used from beginning to end. The readers of his letter (as are all the first target audience of all the New Testament) are presumably saved Christians (James 2:1). They all have faith. The whole point that James is actually making, then, is that even for those who have faith (i.e. Christians), *without *works it is dead.

So, James never refers to dead faith. OK, but what is the “it” that you are referring to here?:

The whole point that James is actually making, then, is that even for those who have faith (i.e. Christians), *without *works it is dead.

 

[Nick_Jones]

This line of thinking fails on two important points. The first is that nowhere in the Bible does it say we are saved by “faith alone”. The only place where the words “faith” and “alone” appear together is James 2:24 where it says “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

If the faith that is given as a free gift by which we are credited as righteous… isn’t sufficient for our salvation, then what else is needed to be saved?

 

[Nick_Jones]

This, I think, is a promising way to read the allegedly tension between faith and works.

This was an excellent post! I just want to point out that there appears to be only one way of bringing faith and works into complete biblical harmony:

The good works done in faith by saved individuals follows from and is a result of their faith in Christ, and not any part of the cause of their salvation.

In other words, salvation, which comes by grace through faith, comes first, and the saved individual is then free to do good works… in gratitude for the mercy received.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Check out Matthew 25:31-46. I’m amazed at how often this is overlooked. Here, Christ clearly lays out exactly how important works are to salvation.

Yes, someone’s works are absolutely necessary for salvation. The question is, who’s works are you trusting for your salvation?

Keep in mind that boasting is excluded, and that Paul repeatedly insists that justification is by faith apart from works.

 

[Fidelis]

So, James never refers to dead faith. OK, but what is the “it” that you are referring to here?:

The whole point that James is actually making, then, is that even for those who have faith (i.e. Christians), without works it is dead.

“It” refers to faith.

Not “dead” faith.

Not “saving” faith.

Faith. Period.

 

[Fidelis]

This line of thinking fails on two important points. The first is that nowhere in the Bible does it say we are saved by “faith alone”. The only place where the words “faith” and “alone” appear together is James 2:24 where it says “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

**Hint: **Read James chapter 2, provided in it’s entirety in a previous post for your convenience.

 

[Fidelis]

The good works done in faith by saved individuals follows from and is a result of their faith in Christ, and not any part of the cause of their salvation.

In other words, salvation, which comes by grace through faith, comes first, and the saved individual is then free to do good works… in gratitude for the mercy received.

If works automatically followed as a result of faith, then presumably all those millions in the world who have faith would currently be works-performing machines. The world would not be able to contain the number of good works performed.

It is very obvious that we don’t see that. Why not? Because good works do NOT automatically flow from faith. It involves an act of the individual will. As I pointed out above, that is why the New Testament (addressed to “saved” believers) is crammed full of exhortations and warnings to do this and don’t do that. If works flowed spontaneously from faith, it would be the unnecessary to issue any kind of instruction at all after one comes to faith.

Say, for the sake of argument, you are saved by faith and all these good works flowing automatically out of this faith are just straining to get out but you don’t perform them because they don’t mean anything. Isn’t that disobeying God? Isn’t disobeying God sin? Do people that disobey God and sin go to heaven – are they “saved”?

 

[KephasAugustine]

Humans are fallen and weak, regardless of the amount of faith they have. You can have faith to move mountains, but stumble when it comes to pride or purity. You can have faith in God but disregard your neighbor–this is a human failing. As I said before, Matthew 25:31-46 lays out the importance of works on top of faith, or flowing from faith.

When Paul speaks about Abraham being justified by faith, he does mention that Abraham not only sat around saying “Hallelujah, I believe…” he did whatever God told him to do. It is pretty clear that if Abraham had believed in God, yet sat on his thumbs for his whole life, not leaving his native land or starting the new nation, his faith would have meant nothing, because it did not beget the good works that God commands. Believing in God is more than just saying “yep, He’s there…” at the risk of sounding cliche, even the devil “believes” in God…does that mean he’s justified? Hardly.

The fact of the matter is, we are saved neither by faith nor by works, but by God’s Grace, which He freely gives to humanity so that we can have faith in the first place. Faith is a gift from God, enabling us to believe in Him. We are justified not by having faith, but by receiving faith and living in faith. That is, when God has given us the grace to believe in Him, He expects us to follow His commandments, His precepts, His Church’s teachings. To believe in God is to do whatever he says…to have faith in God is to trust Him and know that He is right. And whatever works He tells us to do, we should do according to our amount of faith in Him, just as Abraham did, as Isaac, as Jacob, as Noah, as Joseph, as the Virgin Mary, and all the great faithful men and women of the Bible.

 

[Nick_Jones]

If works automatically followed as a result of faith, then presumably all those millions in the world who have faith would currently be works-performing machines. The world would not be able to contain the number of good works performed.

If everyone in the world had the faith that saves, AND no one had any of their sinful nature remaining in them, then I think you would be right:

those millions in the world who have faith would currently be works-performing machines. The world would not be able to contain the number of good works performed.

It is very obvious that we don’t see that. Why not?

Because:

1. Only some people have the Spirit living within them, so only some people have saving faith, not most people or all people.
2. Of those who are saved, all of them still have their sinful desires until the day they die. All of us continue to sin until death.

Because good works do NOT automatically flow from faith. It involves an act of the individual will.

I think in some sense you are right. Our God-given faith doesn’t turn us into machines for performing good deeds, but living saving faith DOES transform the will of the saved individual. Remember what king David did. Although David knew God in a deeply personal and faithful way, he sinned in a dreadful and vile way. But it is God who is perfectly faithful, and God brought David to repentance.

As I pointed out above, that is why the New Testament (addressed to “saved” believers) is crammed full of exhortations and warnings to do this and don’t do that. If works flowed spontaneously from faith, it would be the unnecessary to issue any kind of instruction at all after one comes to faith.

The biblical exhortations and warnings to do this and don’t do that are to instruct us on the danger of self deception in saying that we are changed but not living out our faith. Good trees will produce good fruit, and if the fruit I’m producing isn’t good, I ought to question my own salvation.

Say, for the sake of argument, you are saved by faith and all these good works flowing automatically out of this faith are just straining to get out but you don’t perform them because they don’t mean anything. Isn’t that disobeying God? Isn’t disobeying God sin? Do people that disobey God and sin go to heaven – are they “saved”?

True, it is sin to disobey God, and all of us disobey God. As I pointed out, king David sinned in a major way. But salvation is a free gift (it is by grace), so we can’t earn our way into heaven by “not sinning.” If we were so morally good that we could simply “not sin” what would we need God’s grace for?

 

[Fidelis]

Originally Posted by Fidelis

Again, the Bible does not make a distinction between “dead” or false faith, and “saving” faith. One either has faith or one does not. We are only talking about those who have faith, not everyone in the world. To point out the behavior of those who do not have faith, is not relevant to the discussion.

1. Only some people have the Spirit living within them, so only some people have saving faith, not most people or all people.

Again, the unsaved are not who are being discussed, only those who have faith. And, judging by the paucity of good works it must be dang few, especially in relation to all the huge altar calls and mass conversions one sees on TV.

1. Of those who are saved, all of them still have their sinful desires until the day they die. All of us continue to sin until death.

That is true. But if works flow automatically from faith, then sin would not be an impediment. And if these works are blocked off by sin, then it becomes a circular argument along the lines of:

“If you’re saved, works should flow from your faith. Unless, of course, you sin, in which case maybe you’re not saved after all because, well, works aren’t flowing from your faith to give evidence of that faith.”

I think in some sense you are right. Our God-given faith doesn’t turn us into machines for performing good deeds, but living saving faith DOES transform the will of the saved individual. Remember what king David did. Although David knew God in a deeply personal and faithful way, he sinned in a dreadful and vile way. But it is God who is perfectly faithful, and God brought David to repentance.

But not without David’s cooperation. David had the free will to refuse to repent. God is faithful, but we aren’t always.

The biblical exhortations and** warnings** to do this and don’t do that are to instruct us on the danger of self deception in saying that we are changed but not living out our faith. Good trees will produce good fruit, and if the fruit I’m producing isn’t good, I ought to question my own salvation.

Again, the New Testament was addressed to presumably saved Christians (“Saints” Paul calls them at the beginning of many of his letters). Many of these people were both blatantly doing evil (like some of the Corinthians) and, in the case of James 2, failing to do good. This goes way beyond a friendly reminder.

True, it is sin to disobey God, and all of us disobey God. As I pointed out, king David sinned in a major way. But salvation is a free gift (it is by grace), so we can’t earn our way into heaven by “not sinning.”

We are not “earning” our way into heaven by “not sinning.” We are avoiding losing heaven that is freely given us by God, but is ours to lose.

If we were so morally good that we could simply “not sin” what would we need God’s grace for?

As I pointed out in my original post, it is not a matter of being morally good. I didn’t say that and the Church doesn’t teach that. Let me repeat that, because Protestants obstinately cling to this myth about the Church no matter how many times you say it:** The Church does not teach that one can be “good enough” or work their way to heaven on their own power.**

We are saved by grace through faith, which includes obedience – the obedience of faith." (Romans 1 and 16). Please carefully re-read my original post for more details.

 

[moondweller]

While we’re at it, let me add this:

Extremely Short Explanation of How Are We Saved?: It’s All Grace

–>Christ did NOT die on the Cross in our place (NO “Substitutionary Atonement”)–>Christ DID die on the Cross to take away the sin (in general) of the world = the Redemption.
· This made it possible for each of us to respond to God’s initiative (grace), place our faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and his promises, and be baptized.

The Catholic denial of Christ’s death on the cross as substitutionary is the core disconnect between Catholics and Protestants and why Catholics cannot accept the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace (not graces) through faith alone. And what Paul means when he says in 1 Cor. 1:23-24 that Christ crucified is the power and wisdom of God for salvation.

The cross is the wisdom of God because it solved the greatest problem of how He (God) could be just and yet be the justifier of the ungodly (through faith in Jesus alone, Rom. 3:26). It is the power of God because by the cross alone, all the infinite ability of God to save the lost sinner is released from those restrictions which the sin of man imposed (propitiation).

Apart from the substitutionary nature of the sacrifice of Christ the cross is meaningless and powerless. Simply a religious icon. And for this reason Catholics look to salvation as a “process” by which works (other than Christ’s on the cross) must be added, and therefore salvation is completed only at the end of one’s life here on earth. But such a notion is unbiblical and hardly Apostolic.

 

[Nick_Jones]

Again, the Bible does not make a distinction between “dead” or false faith, and “saving” faith. One either has faith or one does not. We are only talking about those who have faith, not everyone in the world. To point out the behavior of those who do not have faith, is not relevant to the discussion.

Everyone has faith in someone or something–even atheists. Many RC’s have faith in their own ability to cooperate sufficiently with God to attain salvation. But the kind of faith that saves (the living kind that actually changes people) is only from God, and its focus is on God’s goodness, not on our own goodness.

And if these works are blocked off by sin, then it becomes a circular argument along the lines of:

“If you’re saved, works should flow from your faith. Unless, of course, you sin, in which case maybe you’re not saved after all because, well, works aren’t flowing from your faith to give evidence of that faith.”

This is not the biblical view of how saving faith works. As I pointed out with king David, good works done in faith do not prevent a saved individual from straying far away from God many times. You seem determined to make your own goodness a factor in saving your soul.

But not without David’s cooperation. David had the free will to refuse to repent.

Again, this is your own opinion, which finds reason to give credit to ther saved individual, rather than credit to the Savior for saving people!

We are not “earning” our way into heaven by “not sinning.” We are avoiding losing heaven that is freely given us by God, but is ours to lose.

What’s the difference? ISTM that either way you word it, your theory is that we must be good enough (we must earn) by our deeds (or lack of offenses) to attain salvation.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

You don’t have to be good enough–you do have to Nothingly and Zeroingly be neutral enough so that God can do all the saving.

Being Neutral is cooperating without positively doing anything!

It is the answer to the false dilemma of the protestant mind that says either God saves or man saves himself.

It isn’t a question of either/or–it is a matter of God doing all the saving while man NEUTRALLY cooperates by doing nothing.

The real Flaw in the Calvinist system is the idea that good works NECESSARILY flow from genuine true saving faith.

If that were always true then man would not have enough free will to sin and damn himself.

Man’s free will is limited–but it is not limited to Either choosing for or Against god.

It is limited to either choosing against God or doing nothing.

Doing nothing is not a positive act that man does.

Whenever man deos anything other than nothing–he Mortaly sins and God is shut out of his soul.

The real answer is Mortal sin. It does exist! It is sin unto death!

And it does separate man from God regardless of true genuine saving faith that might have happened before.

Yes people can lose their salvation because God loves them enough to give them the free will to choose that way.

Do no the scriptures say “Love does not demand its own way” and that “God is love”?

If those two things are true as the scriptures say then God Must allow people even After genuine saving faith to choose against Him!

Die in that state of choosing against Him and guess what–as Catholics teach you will go to Hell!

Catholics believe in the reality of sin and believe that nothing unholy will be allowed to enter heaven.

Some protestants believe that once you’re genuinely saved that God won’t allow you to choose against Him–in that case they’re making God be Unloving which He can’t be–or they’re making the mistake in logic that if one once is genuinely saved that they won’t choose later against God–all of us christians sin and we know that isn’t true!

The only other way would be for God not to worry about what we do after genuine saving faith and just let us into heaven anyway!

Does that make any sense?

Does dying in a state of grace–even though you may have committed venial sins which do not force God out of your soul and then going to Heaven or purgatory

Or

dying in a state of mortal sin with God out of your soul and thus going to Hell–does that make sense?

Of course!

Just like purgatory makes sense as totally fulfilling God’s justice and Mercy and of us becoming Holy so we can enter heaven.

In the final analysis the Catholic view makes sense and the Protestant way doesn’t and the easiest way to know this is that the Protestant ways is Easier!

Jesus said “Narrow is rthe way to eternal life and few there are that find it.”

Anyone can find it the once genuinely saved–don’t worry God will take care of you and you’ll go to heaven Way.

Harder is the Catholic way of remaining in a state of grace so Jesus can make us perfect so we can enter Heaven.

Which sounds more like Jesus’ way and which way sounds more like Satan’s way?

 

[moondweller]

If that were always true then man would not have enough free will to sin and damn himself.

This statement is based on the lack of understanding of the power of the cross for God to freely save to the utter most those who believe. The sin factor in regards to salvation was dealt with, once for all, through the, once for all, substitutionary sacrifice of the Son. The issue of salvation is not sin but belief:John 3:17-18 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

Man’s free will is limited–but it is not limited to Either choosing for or Against god.

The choice is not “for or against God,” but to believe the gospel message of the cross of Christ or to not believe the message of the cross.

God saves (forever) the believer through the power of Christ’s sacrificial work alone! There is no other work through which God can save. Hence, it is by grace through faith alone. That’s why Paul said"1 Cor. 1:23 “but we preach Christ crucified,” to the Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness."

1 Cor. 2:2 "For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified."God’s power to save is in the cross.