Catholics are not saved by Works

[guanophore]

True. But they cannot turn to that power - even if they do know who He is - without God’s direct intervention, which I’m sure you believe as well. Man, apart from the grace of God, can have knowledge of a higher power and a basic understanding of ethics (good vs. evil) because of the natural moral law God has written in their hearts:

Romans 2:14-15

**14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, **

That’s why we find in pagan philosophical and religious systems many simliarities to Christianity when it comes to ethics/morality (i.e ancient Egyptian wisdom literature, ancient Greek philosophy, Buddhism, Zoroatrianism, etc.). However, if this basic capacity to know God and His moral law is not united to grace, it cannot produce repentance and faith. I’m just clarifying this so that Nick does not misunderstand you.

God bless,
Michael

Ok, so, are you saying that the innate desire that is in man to seek a Higher Power is not pre-venient grace?

I agree that not all find Him.
Not all even respond to that desire from within to look without.

Acts 17:32-18:1

32 Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked; but others said, “We will hear you again about this.” 33 So Paul went out from among them. 34 But some men joined him and believed, among them Dionys’ius the Are-op’agite and a woman named Dam’aris and others with them.

Are those that said “we will hear you again about this” recipients of the prevenient grace?

Clearly, some responded immediately, believed, and were joined to the Church.

 

[mikeledes]

Jesus said, “You must be born again.” Regeneration is what makes room for faith since “no one seeks God” and “all have turned away”. The lack of faith in God is the NATURAL state of fallen mankind. Fallen man doesn’t believe because he WILL NOT believe. You are suggesting that faith can precede regeneration. How is that possible?

Did you read my posts on “prevenient grace?” God is the* First Cause * of repentance and faith. Regeneration is another aspect of God’s salvific work within us, which I will discuss later in greater detail. The Bible never equates “drawing” with “born again.” Faith is a result of drawing, not of regeneration, which is a distinct concept.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I see your point, of course, but this verse could also support Nick’s point that they became believers because they were regenerated by grace first.

That’s if you assume “grace” here means “regeneration.” If we look at other texts, we see otherwise.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

You just contradicted yourself: You said "Most people will not be interested in water baptism unless they already believe in Jesus "

Well, if they already believe in Jesus, and then are baptised, doesn’t faith precede regeneration?

peace

No. Regeneration is what makes faith happen, and without regeneration, no one is WILLING to believe in God.

 

[mikeledes]

Ok, so, are you saying that the innate desire that is in man to seek a Higher Power is not pre-venient grace?

Prevenient grace is not a quality natural to fallen man. If it were, it would not be grace. The following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding “actual grace”:

**In the refutation of Semipelagianism, in so far as the necessity of actual grace is concerned, it will not be amiss to follow an adult through all the stage on the way to salvation, from the state of unbelief and mortal sin to the state of grace and a happy death. With regard, first, to the period of unbelief, the Second Synod of Orange (can. v) decreed that prevenient grace is absolutely necessary to the infidel not only for faith itself, but also for the very beginning of faith. By the “beginning of faith”, it intended to designate all the good aspirations and motions to believe which precede faith properly so called, as early dawn precedes sunrise. Consequently, the whole preparation for the faith is made under the influence of grace, e.g. the instruction of persons to be converted. The accuracy of this view is confirmed by the Bible. According to the assurance of the Saviour, external preaching is useless if the invisible influence of grace (the being drawn by the Father) does not set in to effect the gradual “coming” to Christ (John, vi, 44). Were faith rooted in mere nature, were it based on mere natural inclination to believe or on natural merit, nature could legitimately glory in its own achievement of the work of salvation in its entirety, from faith to justification–nay, to beatific vision itself.And still Paul (I Cor., iv, 7; Eph., ii 8 sq.) abominates nothing so much as the “glorying” of nature. **

newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

Define for us what is “Baptism by the Spirit of God” and ‘baptism by water’.

Scriptural quotes would be very important as well.

peace

Baptism by water is immersion into water, and baptism by the Holy Spirit is immersion in the Holy Spirit.

BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT

John 3:1-15
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior…

 

[mikeledes]

Baptism by water is immersion into water, and baptism by the Holy Spirit is immersion in the Holy Spirit.

BAPTISM BY THE SPIRIT

John 3:1-15
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.” In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” “How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!” Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked. “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Titus 3:4-6
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior…

So is this the same thing as regeneration?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

Because regeneration is a different aspect of God’s salvific work within us. Jesus says “You must be born again.” What He does not say is that repentance and faith are the result of being “born again.” Yes, man cannot - by the pure exertion of his own will - come to faith. That’s why God must take the inititiatve, He must draw man unto Himself. The literal meaning of “draw” is to pull. The immediate end of an efficacious drawing is regeneration. I don’t have the time now, Nick, but I would like to discuss with you the meaning of regeneration. I’ll be posting on this topic later in the day.

God Bless,
Michael

There is a reason why Jesus told Nicodemus that “no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Fallen mankind is hostile to God.

Gen. 6:5-6
The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Rom. 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Rom. 3:9-18
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[mikeledes]

There is a reason why Jesus told Nicodemus that “no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.” Fallen mankind is hostile to God.

Gen. 6:5-6
The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

Rom. 8:7
the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.

Rom. 3:9-18
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Yes, fallen man cannot come to God. But regeneration is not the means by which God brings a person to faith - that’s called “drawing.” Regeneration occurs after you have been drawn.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

Yes, fallen man cannot come to God. But regeneration is not the means by which God brings a person to faith - that’s called “drawing.” Regeneration occurs after you have been drawn.

God Bless,
Michael

It appears to me that on this issue (drawing, regeneration) we differ even on the definitions. I see no value or point to God “drawing” people who He knows will never accept Him.

I don’t see any difference between God’s “drawing” and His “regeneration” of those whom He chooses to save. The reason fallen man rejects God is because fallen man is hostile to God. The solution to this condition is the grace of God in the special grace (not given to all people) of regeneration by the Spirit.

 

[Shiann]

It appears to me that on this issue (drawing, regeneration) we differ even on the definitions. I see no value or point to God “drawing” people who He knows will never accept Him.

God is certainly omnicient and knows all ends, but he did give mankind free will…

I don’t see any difference between God’s “drawing” and His “regeneration” of those whom He chooses to save. The reason fallen man rejects God is because fallen man is hostile to God.

Maybe more appropriately said, is indifferent to God. And entirely proud of himself.

The solution to this condition is the grace of God in the special grace (not given to all people) of regeneration by the Spirit.

 

[mikeledes]

It appears to me that on this issue (drawing, regeneration) we differ even on the definitions. I see no value or point to God “drawing” people who He knows will never accept Him.

There is also no point in calling the reprobate to repentance if He knows that they will not repent. And yet He calls them to repentance. Or …

Isaiah 5:1-4

**A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine
And He built a tower in the middle of it
And also hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.
3"And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4"What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones? **

… why do all this work on the vineyard if He knows that they will produce worthless grapes, even though he “expected” good grapes?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I don’t see any difference between God’s “drawing” and His “regeneration” of those whom He chooses to save. The reason fallen man rejects God is because fallen man is hostile to God. The solution to this condition is the grace of God in the special grace (not given to all people) of regeneration by the Spirit.

You have yet to show that this “special grace” is identitical to being baptized in the Spirit, if regeneration and baptism of the Spirit mean the same thing. Do they mean the same thing? You haven’t answered that question yet?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

It appears to me that on this issue (drawing, regeneration) we differ even on the definitions. I see no value or point to God “drawing” people who He knows will never accept Him.

Your inability to see value or point in God’s plan in no way invalidates His plan.

1 Tim 2:3-5
God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Is it your contention that the Apostle Paul is confused, or misinformed when he writes this?

I don’t see any difference between God’s “drawing” and His “regeneration” of those whom He chooses to save.

The difference is that He only saves those that respond affirmatively to being drawn. Those that do not respond to the grace that draws them are have the free will to reject God.

Luke 7:29-30
30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves

The reason fallen man rejects God is because fallen man is hostile to God.

No arguement there

The solution to this condition is the grace of God in the special grace (not given to all people) of regeneration by the Spirit.

This idea is not scriptural, and not consistent with the Teaching of Jesus and the Apostles. Jesus commissioned them to preach to all the nations. God’s grace is shed abroad for all. Not all receive it. Those that do are regenerated.

John 1:12-13
2 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[mikeledes]

It appears to me that on this issue (drawing, regeneration) we differ even on the definitions.

You’re absolutely right, Nick. We do have different definitions of regeneration. So let’s look at what the Bible has to say. Please read the following carefully. First, let’s look at “Baptism of the Spirit,” which you equate with regeneration. Let’s look at the case of Cornelius. According to the Bible, Cornelius was a God fearing Gentile who prayed and gave alms:

Acts 10:12,4-8

**1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. (Edited due to lack of space) **

However, despite the fact that he was a devout man who prayed and gave alms, and that God heard his prayers, Cornelius was not saved.

Acts 11:14

** And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’**

Notice the future tense (i.e. will be). So what happens next? Peter comes and begins preaching to Cornelius and his household and then…

Acts 10:44

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Was Cornelius baptized with the Spirit? Yes, for it states later:

Acts 11:14-16

**14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’ 15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?” **

If Cornelius was baptized with the Spirit while Peter was speaking to him, and baptism with the Spirit is the equivalent of regeneration, then this tells us two things:

1. When Cornelius is described as one who feared God, continuously prayed, and gave alms, he was not regenerated because the Bible clearly states when he was baptized with the Spirit (Acts 10:44-45, 11:15-17). And yet he sought God and God answered was pleased with his prayers and alms (Acts 10:4).
2. Acts 11:16 indicates that this baptism with the Spirit occured when or after they have believed, not before. The New American Standard Bible, a translation used and respected by many Calvinists, states:

**17"Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?" **

So if baptism of the Spirit is the same as regeneration, than these verses clearly indicate that repentance and faith are not the product of regeneration. In fact, regeneration occurs after one has believed. And yet, how can Cornelius fear God, pray, and believe if he was not regenerated? Well we know no one can come to faith unless the father draws Him and that we have believed through grace (Acts 18:27)

Conseqeuntly, Cornelius could not have offered prayers and alms pleasing to God, fear God, and obey God’s command to find Peter if the infuence of God’s grace (i.e. drawing) was not involved for man cannot come to God purely by his own efforts. And yet we know that this “special grace” was not regeneration because the Bible clearly states that he was regenerated, and thus saved, after he heard Paul and believed. What we have in the case of Cornelius from Acts 10:1-5 until Acts 10:44 was God continuosuly drawing (i.e. prevenient grace) Cornelius until he believed (Acts 10:44, 11:17), was regenerated ( Acts 10:45, 11:15-17), and thus saved (Acts 11:14). This clearly indicates that regeneration is not the equivalent of drawing and that drawing leads to regeneration. Thus prevenient grace is a grace that is distinct from regeneration and one that precedes it.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Luke 7:29-30
30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves

Guanophore, this is an excellent verse to use against Calvinism. If the Pharisees were of the non-elect, than what “purpose of God for themsleves” did they reject? If God’s purpose for them was for them never to genuinely believe, then how can their unbelief be a rejection of that purpose? Wouln’t their unbelief actually be an acceptance and thus confirmationof God’s purpose for themselves, namely, eternal damnation?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Nick, I have to go and thus do not have the time to discuss the biblical definition of regeneration. In other words, what actually happens when we are regenerated and how the biblical description of what occurs at regeneration actually contradicts the Calvinist undestanding of regeneration. I will discuss this tomorrow, God willing.

In the mean time, I hope you carefully read my last three or four posts. Some of the objections you keep bringing up I have already addressed. I wish you - and all of the participants in this thread - a very blessed evening.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Philthy]

]It appears to me that on this issue (drawing, regeneration) we differ even on the definitions. I see no value or point to God “drawing” people who He knows will never accept Him.

Well, for that matter Nick, whats the purpose in “calling” someone who he knows will accept Him - why not simply just save the elect and be done with it!

I don’t see any difference between God’s “drawing” and His “regeneration” of those whom He chooses to save. The reason fallen man rejects God is because fallen man is hostile to God. The solution to this condition is the grace of God in the special grace (not given to all people) of regeneration by the Spirit./

quote]
This is a bizarre concept. What is the purpose of having people born into a “sinful state” and then regenerate them beyond their control - why not just create them regenerated? And what is the purpose of creating people simply to send them to Hell?

 

[Cling2Cross]

With regard to Cornelius…

When someone is saved - we do not say that they are zapped in an instant. This is not the case. We know that general revelation through the creation (which was created by God’s spoken word - i.e. let there be light) shows us that there is a Creator and God. This is given in Romans 1 very explicitly…

Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (Romans 1:19-20 KJV)

God “shewed” it unto Cornelius and he responded…by seeking the one true God. Not a god that he made up in his mind…he was seeking after the one true God through what revelation that he had…It was the goodness of God that was leading him to repentance.

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? (Romans 2:4 KJV)

This is the type of drawing that God causes in a person. Why do we know that this was a special work that God was doing in Cornelius’ life? Because, we are told that there is no one that seeks after God (in truth)…

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12 KJV)

Therefore, any seeking of the truth - the One True God is completely of God. Many people are responding to general revelation but not in truth - they are sewing fig leaves and not looking for the coats of skins - seeking to clothe themselves with their own righteousness through manmade religion and pride…so any other seeking after another god is not of THE God.

So, this drawing does take place prior to repentance and regeneration…

However, when it comes to the reception of special revelation that accomapnies salvation (when the gospel comes in power and by revelation from the Father and witness of the Holy Spirit) you cannot ignore the scriptures that teach that only those who can come to Christ are given by the Father…

All that the Father **giveth me **shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37 KJV)

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:44 KJV)

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65 KJV)

And further…

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. (John 17:2 KJV)

Did he give everyone to Christ??? No He did not…but clearly, we are told that only those that the Father gives to Christ can come (AND BE JUSTIFIED)…those are the elect. And, at the proper time a preacher is sent, he preaches the gospel, it is heard, believed and then the sinner calls. The elect son/daughter comes to Christ - only the ones the He has foreknown can come and be justified…anyone else that is outwardly associated has been caught up in the general call but receives no inward call from God and only those who receive this special inward call are justified…

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)

We do not find born again believers becoming unjustified in the Bible…we find them trimuphing!

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18 KJV)

No - a born again believer will not sin mortally…as 1 John 5:16 discusses…they overcome of the world (1John 5:4), they love, practice righteousness, keep the commandments, confess Christ, etc. This is a very loud message in 1John.

And while you might use other passages to try to show that one can become unjustified, you take them out of context and interpret them in such a way as to contradict other more clear passages of scripture - passages that you either pass over or twist so that they can no longer be recognizable.

C2C

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/1985/514_Those_Whom_He_Predestined_He_Also_Called_Part_2/

 

[guanophore]

Did he give everyone to Christ???

Yes, He did.

Eph 1:18-23
19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might 20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raised him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; 22 and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church,

Christ is over all, even those who reject His purpose for them.

but clearly, we are told that only those that the Father gives to Christ can come (AND BE JUSTIFIED)…those are the elect. And, at the proper time a preacher is sent, he preaches the gospel, it is heard, believed and then the sinner calls. The elect son/daughter comes to Christ - only the ones the He has foreknown can come and be justified…anyone else that is outwardly associated has been caught up in the general call but receives no inward call from God and only those who receive this special inward call are justified…

God calls all.

1 Tim 2:3-5
God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

His desire is that all should be saved. Yet some spurn the call. Some reject the inner and the outer graces.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)

We do not find born again believers becoming unjustified in the Bible…we find them trimuphing!

No, but when the fall from a state of grace, their last state is worse than their first. Their names are blotted out of the Book fo Life.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1 John 5:18 KJV)

Do you take this verse to mean that a truly born again Christian cannot sin?

No - a born again believer will not sin mortally…as 1 John 5:16 discusses…they overcome of the world (1John 5:4), they love, practice righteousness, keep the commandments, confess Christ, etc. This is a very loud message in 1John.

If that is the case,then why is John writing to believers, talking about mortal sins that need to be forgiven?

And while you might use other passages to try to show that one can become unjustified, you take them out of context and interpret them in such a way as to contradict other more clear passages of scripture - passages that you either pass over or twist so that they can no longer be recognizable.

Personally, I would not. I think that scripture is clear that baptism makes an indelible mark on the believer. If one then spurns the One who died for His sins, then the last state is worse than the first. Such a person is in a more precarious position spiritually than the one that has never known the truth.