Catholics are not saved by Works

[mikeledes]

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2 KJV)

First John 2, 1 John 2, “Jesus Christ the righteous,” verse 1, verse 2, “He Himself is the propitiation for our sins and not for ours only but also for those of the whole world.” What is that saying? That He is a propitiation not only for our sins, again this is very Jewish in its context. But for the whole world. It’s making the same point that John made over and over and over again, the same point that they made in the book of Acts, the same point that Paul makes in Romans 11. That the gospel is not limited to the Jews. Propitiation, by the way, is a very strong word, hilasmos in the Greek. And propitiation means the actual satisfying of God’s just wrath. It’s not a potential, it’s an actual word. It…it…it could be translated placated, or satisfied. He Himself is the satisfaction, He is the placation, He propitiates God, satisfies God, placates God’s anger for our sins. But not just ours, as the inside people, but the whole world. That is to say there is no other propitiation for people in any other nation than the one who is the propitiation for us. If this meant that He was actually a satisfaction for every person who ever lived, then the word is way too strong to mean anything potential. It would have to mean actual because it’s a satisfaction, God was satisfied with the sacrifice on their behalf. Nothing is left out. And Jesus’ death, dear one, was a satisfaction. He was the sacrificial lamb on the ultimate day of atonement whose blood sprinkled before God was a true satisfaction. Propitiation is too strong a word to mean something potential because propitiation means it turns God’s wrath away forever. And not just for us but for any Gentile or anyone else who believes.

This is just one of the Calvinist explanations of this verse. The Bible states:

John 12:47

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Hebrews 2:9 states:

9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

actually these people are taken after the tribulation period. You need to stop reading the left behind series and read scripture

Mt 24:29 Immediately after the TRIBULATION of those days the sun will darken…30 And the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and will come upon the clouds with power and great glory.

read on to 36 and then you get where we will be taken up but all this is After the tribulation and when Jesus comes for the second and final time as scripture tells of only Jesus second coming

The rapture as you believe it has never been tought by the early fathers I dare you to find it:thumbsup:

This teaching regarding the rapture and tribulation is a nineteenth century invention that was not believed by the early Church Fathers, by Martin Luther, by John Calvin, or by any Protestant church before 1840. Even the “Bible Answer Man” rejects this teaching. I find it interesting how this important teaching was somehow overlooked for 1800 years, even by the most respected Protestant theologians (Luther, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards, etc.).

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Cling2Cross]

Mike,

Do you believe that a person is justified (as is spoken of in Romans) by faith alone (apart from works of the law)?

 

[Cling2Cross]

Anyone who truly comes to Christ is incorporated into Him. Anyone who does not genuinely come to Christ - even if they make a barren profession of faith - was never incoporated into Christ.

John 15:1-6

**1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2Every branch in me **that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Now the typical response is that the branches that were cut off were never true believers. They only appeared to be “in Christ.” However, there is a problem with this analysis. From a purely human and temporal perspective, one can mistaken a person for being “in Christ”, being a genuine “branch.” However, Jesus Christ can never be fooled. The branches in question do not describe themselves as being a branch in Christ the Vine. It is **Christ Himself **who describes them as a branch IN HIMSELF. If this person were not a genuine branch in the Vine, Christ would not have described him/her as such. Moreover, we have other passages in the Bible that clearly associates “cutting off” with genuine Christians:

Romans 11:20-22

20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Galatians 5:2-4

2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

The ultimate salvation of the elect is brought about even through the warnings of scripture. God ordains the end and the means by which the end takes place.

 

[Cling2Cross]

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Seminars/1727_TULIP/#Notes

I enjoy Piper…I think he explains things well.

 

[Cling2Cross]

You are taking John 17 out of context.

**1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. ** 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. .

Jesus starts praying first for His apostles (highlighted in red). That’s what He means when He states that he is not praying for the world, but the ones the Father gave him. What he means is that at that point in His prayer, He is only praying for the Twelve. Then He expands the scope of his prayer in verse 21 to include those who come to believe in Him through the preaching of His apostles (highlighted in blue) and finally ends by stating that the WORLD may come to believe in him (v. 21). John 17:9 is often taken out of context by Calvinists to mean something that it does not.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

This is not supporting your claims…he prays for the apostles…then all that will believe…THEN WHO IS LEFT THAT WILL BE SAVED? Only those that will believe. You ran out of road. And God is interested in His name being proclaimed to all the world…God wants all to know. But wanting the world to hear (the world meaning the human realm) and believe the Christ was from God does not say what you are wanting it to say.

 

[Cling2Cross]

Now you are making a distinction between “external”
drawing and “effectual” drawing that does not exist in Scipture. I’m assuming this is a response to:

John 12:32:

32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

The word “draw” means to “pull”, such as “drawing” water from a well. In other words, it is an attractive force that pulls whatever is being drawn towards the one doing the drawing. An “external” drawing makes no sense, especially if this “extenal” drawing actually pushes away - rather than attract - the subject being drawn. That contradicts the meaning of “draw.”

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

If you do not see the inward call that is effectual in scripture as opposed to the gospel call that goes out and is refused by some and accepted by others - you are not reading well. This was not a response to John 12:32…the call in Romans 8:30 is effectual…

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. (1 Corinthians 1:22-24 KJV)

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)

Many are called but few chosen is not an effectual call.

I am very interested in hearing from you about Justification by faith alone in Romans.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28 KJV)

This includes the 10 commandments…what will you say?

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31 KJV)

 

[anthony022071]

If you do not see the inward call that is effectual in scripture as opposed to the gospel call that goes out and is refused by some and accepted by others - you are not reading well. This was not a response to John 12:32…the call in Romans 8:30 is effectual…

Is there an difference in substance between the Word in scripture and the Word in the spoken gospel?

The call itself is no guarantee of salvation. Judas was also called by Christ. Even those who are called and predestined still have the free will to sin and rebel against God,just as the Jews,who were called and predestined to be his people sinned and rebelled against him.

 

[guanophore]

Once again, I respond with James Akin’s response to James White. We must look to the Greek:

**John 6:37 (Not cast out)

First, in John 6:37, Jesus does say: “All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.”

True. I don’t doubt that for a moment. If you come to Jesus, he won’t cast you out. But that doesn’t mean you can’t leave. In fact, you can. In order to understand this, we need to know a little bit about the Greek of this passage. I recently found a good summary of the translation issue. It said:

“Throughout this passage an important truth is presented that again might be missed by many English translations. When Jesus describes the one who comes to him and who believes in him [3:16, 5:24, 6:35, 37, 40, 47, etc.], he uses the present tense to describe this coming, believing, or, in other passages, hearing or seeing. The present tense refers to a continuous, on-going action. The Greek contrasts this kind of action against the aorist tense, which is a point action, a single action in time that is not on-going. . . . The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not truly and continuously believe. The faith that saves is a living faith, a faith that always looks to Christ as Lord and Savior.” (White, 10-11).

That summary was offered by my opponent tonight, Mr. James White, in his little book, Drawn By the Father: A Summary of John 3:35-45.

So by my opponent’s own admission, “The wonderful promises that are provided by Christ are not for those who do not . . . continuously believe.” What this text says is that anyone who continuously comes to Jesus will not be cast out by Jesus. That’s absolutely true. What my opponent needs is a passage which says that anyone who is ever a true Christian will always come to Jesus and never stop coming. But this passage doesn’t say anything like that.**

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

This is very interesting. I have to listen to that!

One point that I have never been able to reconcile with OSAS is
Rev 3:4-5

5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;

Now, why would Jesus say he 'will not blot out" if such a thing could not happen? He tells the 72 to rejoice not because of the miracles done through them, but that their names are written in the Book of Life. Yet, it is possible to blot names out of that book? Why? How?

 

[anthony022071]

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 KJV)

Paul is speaking here of those who have already died in righteousness,like Stephen. Paul is not telling the believers in Rome that they,too,are predestined. To the contrary,he warns them that they might be cut off from the vine,if they do not continue in God’s kindness. To continue in God’s kindness is the broader meaning of faith,and it entails keeping the commandments.

Many are called but few chosen is not an effectual call.

Even those who are called still have free will and so have a choice as to how they will respond to God’s call. Our faith would be meaningless if God did not allow us the freedom to resist him.

I am very interested in hearing from you about Justification by faith alone in Romans.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28 KJV)

This includes the 10 commandments…what will you say?

By deeds of the law,Paul means the sacrifices and rituals of the Jews. He does not mean the ten commandments.

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31 KJV)

The “law of faith” that Paul speaks of necessitates doing the things that Jesus Christ commanded,such as works of mercy toward the poor and needy. A believer must back up what he says he believes in by works. Otherwise,he may be only praising God with his lips,while his heart is far from God.
The word “faith” brings with it the meaning of “committment”,of faithfulness in keeping God’s commandments.

 

[Cling2Cross]

This is very interesting. I have to listen to that!

One point that I have never been able to reconcile with OSAS is
Rev 3:4-5

5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life;

Now, why would Jesus say he 'will not blot out" if such a thing could not happen? He tells the 72 to rejoice not because of the miracles done through them, but that their names are written in the Book of Life. Yet, it is possible to blot names out of that book? Why? How?

It is a means by which to obtain an end…there are times in scripture where God says something is going to happen or not happen. BUT…that does not mean that it is going to happen without anyone doing anything…or without wanrings. In fact, one of the best examples of this that I have seen is in Acts 27…We see an end being proclaimed by God (the physical saving of people who are in a strom on the water)…but a warning that certain individuals must stay on the boat for the end to take place…

…Sirs, ye should have hearkened unto me, and not have loosed from Crete, and to have gained this harm and loss. And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of any man’s life among you, but of the ship. For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee. Wherefore, sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me.

In continues later…

And as the shipmen were about to flee out of the ship, when they had let down the boat into the sea, under colour as though they would have cast anchors out of the foreship, Paul said to the centurion and to the soldiers, Except these abide in the ship, ye cannot be saved. (Acts 27:30-31 KJV)

Both are true - But as God had said - the end would, in fact, come about…but the means by which the end would come about came in the form of a warning.

And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (Jeremiah 32:40 KJV)

This is the New Covenant.

 

[Odell]

I am very interested in hearing from you about Justification by faith alone in Romans.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. (Romans 3:28 KJV)

whats the problem Catholics do believe that works of the law do not justify us. WORKS OF THE LAW

there is a difference

the works of Christ are not works of law circumsision no pork…

if you interprit the verse to mean works in general even when it says works of law you have a problem because Paul who says works of the law do not save but yet he says works in general must be done in Christ.

So I have to ask you what is the difference when Paul says works of law and when Paul says works such as these

Paul (Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”
that includes breaking a commandment:thumbsup:

Paul (Rom 2:13) also says, “for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified.” The law encompasses Jewish rites and rituals.

We have a new Law and that is the LAW OF CHRIST
as well as the ten commandments.

Jesus said I came to fulfill the law not to abolish the law. (Lk 10:25-37). (Mt 19:16-17) “Now someone approached him and said, teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life? If you wish to enter life keep the commandments.”

keeping the commandments to enter life is biblical I dont care how much you twist scripture to avoid this

It is plain as day you will not convince me of anything other that what scripture plainly says

I must add that fulfillment has to do with the proper understanding of the laws. Jesus wants us to understand the commandments. Those who abide in them abide in Christ. And when we abide in him our hearts are conformed to his and we have no desire to break the laws. This is true freedom of the law.

We are not free to break the law because we are now Christians. We have a new law and Im going to uphold to it if you chose not to so be it but dont tell me otherwise

Paul (2 Cor 5:10) instructs, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense; according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”

This includes the 10 commandments…what will you say?

What do you say?

lets see you think it is ok to commit adultry, lie steal, kill

Wow:shrug:

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31 KJV)

thanks for proving my point we do not make void the law Jesus di not abolish the law he fullfilled it.

My question is what law do you establish?

 

[Cling2Cross]

whats the problem Catholics do believe that works of the law do not justify us. WORKS OF THE LAW

there is a difference

the works of Christ are not works of law circumsision no pork…

if you interprit the verse to mean works in general even when it says works of law you have a problem because Paul who says works of the law do not save but yet he says works in general must be done in Christ.

So I have to ask you what is the difference when Paul says works of law and when Paul says works such as these

Paul (Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”
that includes breaking a commandment:thumbsup:

Paul (Rom 2:13) also says, “for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather those who observe the law will be justified.” The law encompasses Jewish rites and rituals.

We have a new Law and that is the LAW OF CHRIST
as well as the ten commandments.

Jesus said I came to fulfill the law not to abolish the law. (Lk 10:25-37). (Mt 19:16-17) “Now someone approached him and said, teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life? If you wish to enter life keep the commandments.”

keeping the commandments to enter life is biblical I dont care how much you twist scripture to avoid this

It is plain as day you will not convince me of anything other that what scripture plainly says

I must add that fulfillment has to do with the proper understanding of the laws. Jesus wants us to understand the commandments. Those who abide in them abide in Christ. And when we abide in him our hearts are conformed to his and we have no desire to break the laws. This is true freedom of the law.

We are not free to break the law because we are now Christians. We have a new law and Im going to uphold to it if you chose not to so be it but dont tell me otherwise

Paul (2 Cor 5:10) instructs, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense; according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.”

What do you say?

lets see you think it is ok to commit adultry, lie steal, kill

Wow:shrug:

thanks for proving my point we do not make void the law Jesus di not abolish the law he fullfilled it.

My question is what law do you establish?

Let us see - how does “don’t eat pork” show us our sin?

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight:** for by the law is the knowledge of sin**. (Romans 3:20 KJV)

Do we see this elsewhere?

An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal? Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege? Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God? (Romans 2:20-23 KJV)

How about here…

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (Romans 7:7 KJV)

The 10 commandments show that we are sinful…

What the problem is…you cannot take the law as a list of rules to follow to be justified…that is what you seem to be teaching. You must some to Christ in repentance over sin realizing that there is nothing that you can do to earn salvation (i.e. law-keeping). This then allows us to keep the commandments through the Spirit.

When it says law in Romans - this includes the 10 commandments - period.

 

[Odell]

The 10 commandments show that we are sinful…

What the problem is…you cannot take the law as a list of rules to follow to be justified…that is what you seem to be teaching. You must some to Christ in repentance over sin realizing that there is nothing that you can do to earn salvation (i.e. law-keeping). This then allows us to keep the commandments through the Spirit.

When it says law in Romans - this includes the 10 commandments - period.

What the problem is is that you do not understand Catholisim.

did you read the part where I said this

I never said we have to follow a list of rules to be justified
Those who abide in the commandment or the Law of Christ abide in Christ. And when we abide in him our hearts are conformed to his and we have no desire to break the laws. This is true freedom of the law.

We are not free to break the law because we are now Christians.

or said this way
you look at Christian morality or Law of Christ as an oppressive list of rules to follow

How far this misunderstanding is from the living morality proclaimed by Christ! The Gospel doesn’t give us more rules to follow. The Gospel is meant to change our hearts so that we no longer need the rules(see Cathichsm 1968) To the degree that we experience this change of heart, we experience freedom from the law (Rom 7, Gal 5), not freedom to break the law; freedom to fulfill it. Here’s an example of what freedom from the law looks like: Do you have any desire to murder your best friend? This may seem like an odd question, but it actually demonstrates the point. Assuming you do not, then you don’t need that commandment. Thou shall not murder thy best friend. Why? Because you have no desire to break it. To this extent you are free from the law. In other words, you don’t experience this law as an imposition because your heart conforms to it. Before original sin, the human heart conformed to Gods heart. That is what Christ came back for to show us how to conform our will to His will, and the Church is there to help.

When we allow Christ into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burden or imposition to you? Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” don’t throw away the law, surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.”

Catholics dont earn there salvation( ie law keeping) We let Christ transform us and no longer desire to break them (ten commandments)

When Jesus says keep my commandments to enter life he ment keep the commandments

When Paul says good works he ment good works and not the Law
Paul (Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

that includes breaking a commandment

when he said you obey wickedness you will get wrath and fury. He menat wrath and fury

so here is my question is it disobeying truth and obeying wickedness when you break a commandment or what is it?

 

[Cling2Cross]

You are taking scripture out of context for one…but let me correct you in one thing. Paul was ridiculed just as you are ridiculing me for his (God’s) teaching on Justification…i.e.

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. (Romans 3:7-8 KJV)

This was a charge that was brought against him for the teaching of Justification by faith alone…he also said things like…

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Romans 6:1 KJV)

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15 KJV)

You are misunderstanding in the same exact way…Justification is an event that is the foundation of sanctification. Romans 3, 4, and 5 are spent on Justification while Romans 6, 7, and 8 are spent on sactification…one happening before the other.

Romans 7 he spends much time defending the law…why…because the teaching of Justification makes the law sound bad…when it is our fleshly approach to the law that is the cause for sin in our members.

You who think that I just walk around saying that I am justified and that I go around spouting this off and living a wicked life…as the Bible puts it, using my liberty as an occasion to the flesh (which, again is a support to the teaching of Justification by faith alone)…are doing it to your own judgment in some cases. We are to be holy as He is holy - we are to obey Christ and do his commands. We are to leave this world behind to follow the master…we are to be evangelizing and gathering fruit/fishing for men. We are to persevere in the faith and do all things to God’s glory. Why - to glorify Him and not to secure our spot in heaven. Life is about serving God.

If you do not accept the justification by faith alone doctrine as an event that happens at the beginning of the Christian life…then you throw away the good news.

I am dead to the law and sin cannot be imputed unto me…blessed am I and all those who have had their iniquities forgiven and their sins covered. (Romans 4)…In am no longer in my sins and and free from the law…married to Christ. Yes - I am going forth and bearing precious seed for God to win the lost. I am not using this liberty to go about and do whatever I want - I am going forth to do His will and not mine.

 

[Odell]

You are taking scripture out of context for one…but let me correct you in one thing. Paul was ridiculed just as you are ridiculing me for his (God’s) teaching on Justification…i.e.

If you do not accept the justification by faith alone doctrine as an event that happens at the beginning of the Christian life…then you throw away the good news.

the good news is that we are transformed and no longer need the law

do you understand this. I never said as you insist that I am doing good to earn my salvation.

the bottom line is Paul preached just as I

Paul (Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

Jesus tought

(Mt 7:21) “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who **does the will **of my Father in heaven.”

What is the will of the father?

(Mt 19: 16-17) “Now someone approached him and said, teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life? If you wish to enter life keep the commandments.” Notice Jesus did not say just accept me as your personal Lord and savior and that’s it. No, Jesus said to enter eternal life you must do something, keep the commandments.

I am dead to the law and sin cannot be imputed unto me…blessed am I and all those who have had their iniquities forgiven and their sins covered. (Romans 4)…In am no longer in my sins and and free from the law…married to Christ. Yes - I am going forth and bearing precious seed for God to win the lost. I am not using this liberty to go about and do whatever I want - I am going forth to do His will and not mine.

Again what is his will?

If you dont do his will will you enter life?

keep in mind Jesus said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter heaven but only those who do his will

also your impling that you are doing his will by bearing precious seed but when a catholic bears his precious seed its not His (Gods) will but our own will.

You also are saying that you wouldnt go out and sin but if you did its really ok because your Christian. But scripture says otherwise

one more thing try not telling me that Im the one taking scripture out of context. Are you infaillible is your interpritation of scripture the final authority for all Christians? didnt think so:thumbsup:

 

[Cling2Cross]

the good news is that we are transformed and no longer need the law

do you understand this. I never said as you insist that I am doing good to earn my salvation.

the bottom line is Paul preached just as I

Paul (Rom 2:7-8) says, “Eternal life to those who seek glory, honor and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.”

Jesus tought

(Mt 7:21) “Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who **does the will **of my Father in heaven.”

What is the will of the father?

(Mt 19: 16-17) “Now someone approached him and said, teacher what good must I do to gain eternal life? If you wish to enter life keep the commandments.” Notice Jesus did not say just accept me as your personal Lord and savior and that’s it. No, Jesus said to enter eternal life you must do something, keep the commandments.

Again what is his will?

If you dont do his will will you enter life?

keep in mind Jesus said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter heaven but only those who do his will

also your impling that you are doing his will by bearing precious seed but when a catholic bears his precious seed its not His (Gods) will but our own will.

You also are saying that you wouldnt go out and sin but if you did its really ok because your Christian. But scripture says otherwise

one more thing try not telling me that Im the one taking scripture out of context. Are you infaillible is your interpritation of scripture the final authority for all Christians? didnt think so:thumbsup:

Have a good day

 

[guanophore]

The call itself is no guarantee of salvation. Judas was also called by Christ. Even those who are called and predestined still have the free will to sin and rebel against God,just as the Jews,who were called and predestined to be his people sinned and rebelled against him.

Indeed!

"…but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves Luke 7:30

If they did not answer the call, then was that not God’s purpose for them? If they were purposed to accept it, then how is it they rejected it?

 

[Cling2Cross]

I would like to hear from Mr. Mikeledes…in the parable of the soils/sower…who is born again?

A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it. And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it. And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. *And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. *But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Luke 8:5-15 KJV)

Not born again
Not born again
Born again!

Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. (Luke 8:18 KJV)

 

[Odell]

Have a good day

dont you think you kind of scipped some questions that was asked of you? but then you just keep asking away your own questions slow down and answer what has been presented to you.