Catholics are not saved by Works

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The biblical formula is clear:** if it is by faith, then it is not by works.**
If such a pat, either/or formula was so clear, we would not be having this discussion.🙂

If it were so clear, why did no one in the Church teach this interpretation for 1500 years? Was EVERYONE (including some of the greatest saints with the greatest minds who ever lived) so decieved, or stupid, or killed by the Jesuits or Martians that there’s no evidence anywhere that this was the belief of Christians until a disgruntled German monk pulled it out of his aspergil to help solve his personal spiritual dilemna?

If it’s so clear, why are we having this argument 500 years later?
 
Hi Ryan,

A blessing for those who, by faith in Jesus, have been freed from false opinions concerning the role of their works, and a curse for those who are relying on some man-centered scheme of faith plus works = salvation.

The biblical formula is clear:** if it is by faith, then it is not by works.**

To imagine otherwise is to view God as a cruel taskmaster who demands some unknowable amount of work on the part of every individual. It would be impossible to live by faith in the goodness and mercy of God if, in the end, our salvation is dependent upon our own good works…as if God’s mercy and grace were insufficient without adding to it, our own supposed merits!
What about babys do they go to Hell?

"If it is by faith alone" then it is not "by anything else"

So YOU believe babys go to hell

PLEASE explain:confused:

hope you get the point it is not an Either or.
👍

by the way finish the sentence

faith hope and LOVE these three exest but the greatest is _______.
 
What about babys do they go to Hell?

"If it is by faith alone" then it is not "by anything else"

So YOU believe babys go to hell

PLEASE explain:confused:

hope you get the point it is not an Either or.
👍

by the way finish the sentence

faith hope and LOVE these three exest but the greatest is _______.
Babies go to heaven…

“But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I** shall go to him**, but he shall not return to me.”” (2 Samuel 12:23, NKJV)

Of such is the kingdom of heaven.

C2C

*“Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”” (1 Samuel 28:19, NKJV) *
 
Before his conversion on the road to Damascus, Saul was a man of (Jewish) faith. Although Saul put his faith into action, Saul didn’t know God. His faith was futile because the god he served never existed.
I think it’s best to drop this part of the conversation and stick to the main subject. I couldn’t find the verse that makes a distinction between true faith and false faith?

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
Hi Ryan,

A blessing for those who, by faith in Jesus, have been freed from false opinions concerning the role of their works, and a curse for those who are relying on some man-centered scheme of faith plus works = salvation.

The biblical formula is clear:** if it is by faith, then it is not by works.**

To imagine otherwise is to view God as a cruel taskmaster who demands some unknowable amount of work on the part of every individual. It would be impossible to live by faith in the goodness and mercy of God if, in the end, our salvation is dependent upon our own good works…as if God’s mercy and grace were insufficient without adding to it, our own supposed merits!
Hi Nick,

Obviously we disagree. If you think God making us “fellow workers” diminishes Him and makes Him a taskmaster, I really don’t know what to say.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
I still don’t understand why James is lying when he says we are not saved by “faith alone”

If He really thought we were saved by f"aith alone"–in fact if God wanted us to know that we were saved by “faith alone”–then why didn’t the Holy Spirit inspire one of the writers of the bible to just come out and plainly say:

We are saved by “faith alone”!

Was the Holy Spirit stupid?

Why would He try to confuse us by saying that we aren’t saved by" faith alone"?

I don’t care if 10 trillion verses in the bible “Seem” to indicate one thing–if another verse in the bible plainly and literaly states the opposite you can’t just throw it out of the Bible!

And why did Jesus say that we would be judged by what we do?

Why didn’t Jesus come out and literally and plainly say that we would be judged by “faith alone”?

I mean if that is so plainly true wouldn’t you think that the Word of God would just come out and say it?

If Jesus didn’t come out and say it and if James says that the opposite is true–you’re going to tell me that I should believe someone with no authority whatsoever outside of Jesus’ church to tell me that they’re smarter than:

the Holy Spirit who didn’t inspire it!

Jesus who also didn’t say it!

And Christ’s Catholic church that never taught it!

And that God didn’t mind people wrongly not believing it either for 1500 years?

And I’m supposed to love God with “my whole mind” and believe all of that?

If that is what justification by “faith alone” means I don’t want any part of it!
 
Babies go to heaven…

“But now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I** shall go to him**, but he shall not return to me.”” (2 Samuel 12:23, NKJV)

Of such is the kingdom of heaven.

C2C

*“Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”” (1 Samuel 28:19, NKJV) *
so it is not by faith alone ether it is or it is not

and you did not complete the sentence:shrug:
 
I still don’t understand why James is lying when he says we are not saved by “faith alone”
!
I still dont understand why Paul is lying when he says we are not saved by works of the LAW dosnt he know that it is works in general done out of Love that are meaningless. Shouldnt he say that we REALLY dont need a RELATIONSHIP or a SAVING FAITH! 😃
 
This was an excellent post! I just want to point out that there appears to be only one way of bringing faith and works into complete biblical harmony:

The good works done in faith by saved individuals follows from and is a result of their faith in Christ, and not any part of the cause of their salvation.

In other words, salvation, which comes by grace through faith, comes first, and the saved individual is then free to do good works… in gratitude for the mercy received.
Thank you Nick.

I just want to point out that I think the particular emphasis which Protestants place on whether works “result” from faith or “cause” salvation is unhelpful. Let me explain why.

Strictly speaking, works do not emerge from faith, but from grace. When I say “works” I don’t mean merely doing “good” things but doing good things which are meritorious unto justification (a la James 2:24). There is no such thing as a good work which justifies which is not preceded by and accompanied with God’s grace. Without grace man simply cannot do any work which has God as its final and last end in the proper sense with which it would be necessary to increase in justification or merit anything in a strict sense. Hence, I’d rather say not that good works follow from faith (in some sense they do), but that good works follow from grace. It hits the teaching closer to the root.

As for them not being any part of the cause of one’s salvation, I’m once again not sure it’s the most helpful way to parse things. Works, when conceived as works of the Mosaic law, or works meant to obligate God in strict justice (commutative justice) do not “cause” salvation in any sense whatsoever. If anything, such “works” of that kind merely distance man and God-- which is in fact the very opposite of a cause. 🙂

But if we mean works in another sense, works done in a filial relationship with God, in love and in grace, directed to a loving Father, then the Scriptures aren’t quite so caustic. Granted, I understand the Protestant uncomfortableness with saying works can justify, but quite frankly, the language is completely Scriptural. James says that we are justified by our works.

When we think of works as loving actions done by grace, then it is absolutely necessary to affirm that these advance the Christian both in justification and sanctification. James says that we are justified by works. Paul says that God will, “repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,” (Rom 2:6-8). The way you prefer to parse it simply does not do justice to the Scriptural notion that our good works will be the subject of our judgment on the last day-- and that those who do good works will be rewarded with eternal life. As Jesus says, whoever does good works to the least of his brothers has done it to Him-- and on the last day he will be placed among the elect and have eternal life (Matt 25).

Good works are absolutely in gratitude for the awesome gift received, but they are also part of the process of justification and sanctification-- they set man more right with God. With this caveat-- man’s good works never obligate God in a strict sense. They only “merit” or “justify” or “sanctify” man in a subordinate sense, completely and wholly dependent on God’s grace which moves him first to the good work, and then gives him the ability to do it in a meritorious way.

But it is a glorious vision of God and man, which holds that God loves us so much that He wants to raise us to such dignity that we can, with His help, do such beautiful things.

-Rob
 
(Jms 2:18**)“I will demonstrate my faith to you by my works.” **

THAT’S WHAT CATHOLICS LIKE TO DO! But yet people for some reason have a problem with us doing what the Bible clearly wants us to do.

Sounds like Satan to me :knight2: :knight1: :knight2: :knight1: :knight2: :knight1: :highprayer:
 
Our previous pastor made this example to me to understand the faith and works teachings. He asked me what my 9 year old son HAD to do for me to love him ? My obvious answer was, nothing. He then asked me why do I take care of him ? Another obvious answer, because I love him.
So it is out of genuine love for the Lord’s people that we want to help the needy. It is out of genuine love of GOD that we should want to attend mass. I for a long time went to mass because I was obligated. I didnt understand the faith I professed to have believed in. How sad given the fact I went to Catholic school all my life. We have been so doctrined that in a way it does blind us to the gospel of charity and mercy. I pray for the continual desire for conversion for all.
 
Would we all agree that God creates all human beings?? Did He need anyone to create Adam? No. He is infinitely capable of doing everything without us. BUT, He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply. So from then on all humans had TO DO something in cooperation with God for humanity to exist. So what we DO is required for a physical existence. This is always by the grace of God and in His will. So, in a likewise fashion, Christ died for us (making us new as was Adam before the fall) and we now cooperate with His redemption for our spiritual existence.(Salvation)

As far as my example went, we cannot will our own children by saying that spouses will be intimate and then immediately results a child. It is the ultimate love of the parents in cooperation with the infinite love of God that a child is conceived.

God wills our cooperation and that is what “works” consist of; a commanded cooperation in His love. Without this we cannot be His disciples, for He says,“They will know you are my disciples by your love.” (cf. John 13:35) Of these three remain, faith, hope and love and the greatest of these is love. (cf.1Cor 13)
 
Hi Ryan,

A blessing for those who, by faith in Jesus, have been freed from false opinions concerning the role of their works, and a curse for those who are relying on some man-centered scheme of faith plus works = salvation.

The biblical formula is clear:** if it is by faith, then it is not by works.**

To imagine otherwise is to view God as a cruel taskmaster who demands some unknowable amount of work on the part of every individual. It would be impossible to live by faith in the goodness and mercy of God if, in the end, our salvation is dependent upon our own good works…as if God’s mercy and grace were insufficient without adding to it, our own supposed merits!
The quantity of works per se have nothing to do with going to heaven. It’s not like Catholics are constantly trying to calculate if they have done enough good works in order to get into heaven. So this “God as a cruel taskmaster who demands some unknowable amount of work on the part of every individual” has nothing to do with Catholic theology.

God bless,
Michael
 
Good works are absolutely in gratitude for the awesome gift received, but they are also part of the process of justification and sanctification-- they set man more right with God. With this caveat-- man’s good works never obligate God in a strict sense. They only “merit” or “justify” or “sanctify” man in a subordinate sense, completely and wholly dependent on God’s grace which moves him first to the good work, and then gives him the ability to do it in a meritorious way.

But it is a glorious vision of God and man, which holds that God loves us so much that He wants to raise us to such dignity that we can, with His help, do such beautiful things.

-Rob
Hi Rob,

The purpose of the whole creation is the glory of God. In salvation, God’s glory is profoundly expressed–in the elect, God’s wonderful mercy, in those who are condemned, God’s perfect justice.

If we must merit our justification by our own goodness (through our own good works) then several antithetical issues arise that give glory to human beings and thus take away the glory that rightfully is for God alone:
  1. It gives men the right to boast if they are found righteous not exclusively by their God-given faith, but also by their “meritorious deeds.”
  2. It insults God by denying that the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to “set men right” before God.
  3. It makes it impossible to rely upon (place one’s faith in) Christ alone for salvation if we are saved partly by our own righteous deeds.
  4. It takes our focus away from the completed work of Jesus if we think His work is not sufficient–and that we need to add some sort of righteousness of our own to that of Christ.
  5. It makes a mockery out of “grace” if, in the end, we are not saved by a free gift and our meritorious cooperation is required.
The usual RC reply is that our good works are also a manifestation of saving grace. True, but the biblical role for our good works is not any part of the cause of our salvation. Saved people want to please their Savior for what He has already done. So, only a person who’s faith is in the COMPLETED work of Christ is free to do good works with pure motives.
 
The usual RC reply is that our good works are also a manifestation of saving grace. True, but the biblical role for our good works is not any part of the cause of our salvation. Saved people want to please their Savior for what He has already done. So, only a person who’s faith is in the COMPLETED work of Christ is free to do good works with pure motives.
Colossians 1:24

24Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

Sorry Paul, you misunderstood again.🤷
 
  1. It gives men the right to boast if they are found righteous not exclusively by their God-given faith, but also by their “meritorious deeds.”
For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh. (Phil 3:3)
  1. It insults God by denying that the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to “set men right” before God.
By doing what God comands of us???:confused:

and if it is sufficient as YOU believe it then ther would be no need in YOUR faith.
  1. It makes it impossible to rely upon (place one’s faith in) Christ alone for salvation if we are saved partly by our own righteous deeds.
We rely on Gods grace to do the righjtous deeds he calls US Christians to do
  1. It takes our focus away from the completed work of Jesus if we think His work is not sufficient–and that we need to add some sort of righteousness of our own to that of Christ.
Christ dosnt allow you to participate with him?

sounds like your not truly part of the body of Christ!

Tell me then how do YOU explain suffering?

Christ gives us the grace because of his completed work.
  1. It makes a mockery out of “grace” if, in the end, we are not saved by a free gift and our meritorious cooperation is required.
it is YOU who makes a mockery of the grace he gives you because you refuse to use it.👍
The usual RC reply is that our good works are also a manifestation of saving grace. True, but the biblical role for our good works is not any part of the cause of our salvation. Saved people want to please their Savior for what He has already done. So, only a person who’s faith is in the COMPLETED work of Christ is free to do good works with pure motives.
I nor any Catholic on this forum does works to gain our salvation. Its sad that when we do good works in the name of God you cant see this.

(Jms 2:18) “I will demonstrate my faith to you by my works.”

THAT’S WHAT CATHOLICS LIKE TO DO!
But yet people for some reason have a problem with us doing what the Bible clearly wants us to do.

Sounds like Satan to me :knight2: :knight1: :knight2: :knight1: :knight2: : :highprayer:
 
Hi Rob,

The purpose of the whole creation is the glory of God. In salvation, God’s glory is profoundly expressed–in the elect, God’s wonderful mercy, in those who are condemned, God’s perfect justice.

If we must merit our justification by our own goodness (through our own good works) then several antithetical issues arise that give glory to human beings and thus take away the glory that rightfully is for God alone:
  1. It gives men the right to boast if they are found righteous not exclusively by their God-given faith, but also by their “meritorious deeds.”
  2. It insults God by denying that the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to “set men right” before God.
  3. It makes it impossible to rely upon (place one’s faith in) Christ alone for salvation if we are saved partly by our own righteous deeds.
  4. It takes our focus away from the completed work of Jesus if we think His work is not sufficient–and that we need to add some sort of righteousness of our own to that of Christ.
  5. It makes a mockery out of “grace” if, in the end, we are not saved by a free gift and our meritorious cooperation is required.
The usual RC reply is that our good works are also a manifestation of saving grace. True, but the biblical role for our good works is not any part of the cause of our salvation. Saved people want to please their Savior for what He has already done. So, only a person who’s faith is in the COMPLETED work of Christ is free to do good works with pure motives.
The Good works we do are not of our own doing or our own power, they are done by the Grace of God.

We are not just called to faith, but we are called to faith and obedience.
There are many passaged that we are saved by faith, and by faith apart from works, but there are also many passaged which tell us that we will not gain eternal life if we don’t keep His commandments and if we don’t love one another.

We are saved by God’s grace alone, and our response to that grace is faith working in love. (faith and obedience)
 
Hi Rob,

The purpose of the whole creation is the glory of God. In salvation, God’s glory is profoundly expressed–in the elect, God’s wonderful mercy, in those who are condemned, God’s perfect justice.

If we must merit our justification by our own goodness (through our own good works) then several antithetical issues arise that give glory to human beings and thus take away the glory that rightfully is for God alone:
  1. It gives men the right to boast if they are found righteous not exclusively by their God-given faith, but also by their “meritorious deeds.”
  2. It insults God by denying that the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to “set men right” before God.
  3. It makes it impossible to rely upon (place one’s faith in) Christ alone for salvation if we are saved partly by our own righteous deeds.
  4. It takes our focus away from the completed work of Jesus if we think His work is not sufficient–and that we need to add some sort of righteousness of our own to that of Christ.
  5. It makes a mockery out of “grace” if, in the end, we are not saved by a free gift and our meritorious cooperation is required.
The usual RC reply is that our good works are also a manifestation of saving grace. True, but the biblical role for our good works is not any part of the cause of our salvation. Saved people want to please their Savior for what He has already done. So, only a person who’s faith is in the COMPLETED work of Christ is free to do good works with pure motives.
One is made right before God by the Cross of Christ. We do not become righteous by performing good works. We are made righteous by His grace in order to do good works. However, we will be held accountable on how we conform out lives to the free gift of justification.

God Bless,
Michael
 
Hi Rob,

The purpose of the whole creation is the glory of God. In salvation, God’s glory is profoundly expressed–in the elect, God’s wonderful mercy, in those who are condemned, God’s perfect justice.

If we must merit our justification by our own goodness (through our own good works) then several antithetical issues arise that give glory to human beings and thus take away the glory that rightfully is for God alone:
  1. It gives men the right to boast if they are found righteous not exclusively by their God-given faith, but also by their “meritorious deeds.”
  2. It insults God by denying that the sacrifice of Jesus is sufficient to “set men right” before God.
  3. It makes it impossible to rely upon (place one’s faith in) Christ alone for salvation if we are saved partly by our own righteous deeds.
  4. It takes our focus away from the completed work of Jesus if we think His work is not sufficient–and that we need to add some sort of righteousness of our own to that of Christ.
  5. It makes a mockery out of “grace” if, in the end, we are not saved by a free gift and our meritorious cooperation is required.
The usual RC reply is that our good works are also a manifestation of saving grace. True, but the biblical role for our good works is not any part of the cause of our salvation. Saved people want to please their Savior for what He has already done. So, only a person who’s faith is in the COMPLETED work of Christ is free to do good works with pure motives.
I’ve heard this argumentation before, but I find it largely unpersuasive. The main reason is that I think it involves equivocation in the term “work.”

As I stated in my first post, we must make a distinction when we speak of works. On the one hand, we have 1. works as Paul conceives of them especially in Romans 4:4-- works as part of a system of strict justice where a worker obligates an employer, and on the other hand 2. works as Paul sometimes conceives them, as well as Jesus and James, where someone in a loving filial relationship with God, out of grace, does something good.

Your argument requires an equivocation on works. When you condemn works you condemn something similar to version 1, but then later you also condemn version 2 on the same account-- but that is unjustifiable. Equivocation is just a fallacy. I distinguished between terms precisely for this reason, because unclear usage of terms leads to argumentative fallacies. They may share the same name, “works,” but they represent vastly different realities.

The problem doesn’t exist if we operate on version 2. There is no reason for boasting of works which God gave us the grace to start, to do, and to finish. Good works of the type of version 2 are not works we can “boast” about because we do not do them of our own power, only with the guiding, loving hand of God. Without God’s grace there would be no good work there. The person who boasts about his good works (version 2) would simply be stupid because he can only do them because God gives him the grace to do them.

That’s why your argument misses the mark. I would suggest that you don’t hear the word “work” if that’s a stumbling block for you. Try to represent to your mind the definition behind work. I understand that many Protestants have an extreme aversion to the word work, and the problem that happens is that I see many nominal arguments-- based on words, and not the realities they represent-- that because of this ‘works’ are bad. But the only successful argument against works will have to deal with what exactly we mean when we condemn works, because otherwise we will not know what we are condemning.
 
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