Catholics are not saved by Works

[epostle]

He taught us about the law of love, and yes, it is required.

Precisely. Faith ripped from love is just another Judaizied law.

 

[RobNY]

This is a novel and interesting theory, but you haven’t supported it with Scripture.

Indeed, I did. My original post, which you said was “excellent” did that very thing.

Well, ISTM that all you’re saying is that some types of human works are REQUIRED for salvation, while other types are not. But the hard part (for the RC position) is to show some Scriptural basis for this notion.

Matthew 25, the Last Judgment. Jesus divides the elect from the damned based on who did good works. Examples can be multiplied.

Either our good works (of some type) are REQUIRED for our salvation or they aren’t. So, if Paul, Jesus, or James really DO teach that our good works (of some type) are REQUIRED for salvation then you obviously ought to be able to point to some Scripture that teaches this.

The teaching of Jesus, as shown in Matthew 25, is that those who fail to do good works to the poor and disadvantaged, “to the least of my brothers and sisters,” has failed to do good to Jesus-- these people are damned eternally.

I don’t see how these two “versions” of works are vastly different if both versions involve an exchange or payment of some kind between the giver (God) and the recipient (the sinner who is REQUIRED to do some type of good works).

The bible is quite explicit in saying that God rewards those of who who try to please Him through good works (e.g., Rom 2:6-8; Rev 22:12; cf. Hebrews 11:6). This very biblical notion makes Protestants uncomfortable because they cannot make the distinction-- as you have just said, you don’t see the difference-- between doing a work in the sense of strict justice, and doing a good work-- a work of love.

We disagree over the ROLE of our good works. You seem to insist that God REQUIRES some kind of good works (by sinners) in order to become saved, and I interpret Scripture to be saying that the good works that the elect were created to do, are the fruit (result) of the saving faith that has already saved the sinner.

That good works increase us in justification or sanctification is undeniable according to the scriptural usage. But if they are increasing our sanctification they are thereby furthering our salvation.

Nick, I think it comes down to this. You have to show what everyone means by “works.” Until then it does no good to say that “works” are condemned, because if works of the Mosaic law are condemned, you can hardly expect us to condemn good works. Likewise, if Paul is condeming works which put us in the position of a worker to an employer (a la Rom 4:4), you can hardly expect us to make the unwarranted leap that he is also condemning good works. But, if you can show that Paul condemns good works in an unqualified sense, then you’ll have shown your position.

Granted, I don’t think such a thing can be proved out of Scripture. But, it seems that this is exactly what you’ll have to do to prove the point you’d like to make.

-Rob

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Rob,

There is no way to avoid tension in a faith plus works justification formula. The RCC has devised a very complicated and legalistic scheme by which they try to reconcile things that cannot be reconciled. Paul repeatedly tells us that whatever is given as a free gift cannot be earned, and that our works have no role in saving us.

Romans 2:6-10

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Galatians 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

John 5:28-29

**28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

Which is basically the same question and response in…

Matthew 19:16-17

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[No one is good but One, that is, God. [COLOR=“blue”]But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Which is a variant of what he said earlier in…

Matthew 7:21

**21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. **

Revelation 2:26

**26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— **

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

The Bible is pretty clear.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

This claim of yours that some required works are law, while other required works are not law is nonsense. Whatever God commands to us is law, and it is undeniable that in the RC view, your salvation is completely and utterly dependent upon doing enough of some kind of works…and that this is not merely a suggestion but a command, and your soul is lost forever if you treat these required works as something other than a command of law.

Qunatity of works per se have nothing to do with the Catholic view of salvation, so we do not worry whether we have enough works or not. What we are concerned about is being in state of grace and not falling from grace through sin. Not doing good is sin.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Bishopite]

You apparently haven’t considered that ANY FORM OF GOOD WORKS that is required by God for salvation IS LAW. The system of grace is the system of free mercy, not slavery to the LAW. No gift that is given for free can require obligation from the recipient…or else it isn’t a free gift.

This is where you have gone wrong, the law was a grace, for it revealed the sins of the Isrealites. The New Testament–new covenant abolished the ceremonial aspects of the law, however, the moral aspects of the law STILL apply to us today as they are immutable. Paul speaks of the moral aspects of the “law” in Romans 2:14-16; that the gospel is written on everyones heart.

 

[mikeledes]

This claim of yours that some required works are law, while other required works are not law is nonsense. Whatever God commands to us is law, and it is undeniable that in the RC view, your salvation is completely and utterly dependent upon doing enough of some kind of works…and that this is not merely a suggestion but a command, and your soul is lost forever if you treat these required works as something other than a command of law.

The problem is that you are misunderstanding what Paul means by “the Law.” Romans 4 and all related passages in Romans and Galatians must be understood within their proper historical/ theological context. We must also understand what Paul meant by “The Law” and “the works of the Law.” There were those in the early years of the Church who were reverting to the Mosaic Law/ Old Covenant (i.e. circumcision, kosher laws, etc.). Many Jews and Judaizing Christians claimed that you could only be saved and be a child of God if you were a member of God’s chosen race. This could only occur in two ways: you are either born into it or you become a member by being circumcised and observing the Law of Moses. This is the controversy addressed by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The basic message of Paul in Romans and Galatians is that one cannot become righteous before God - liberation from the debt and power of sin - by observing the Mosaic law. If that were possible, then the Cross of Christ would not be necessary:

Galatians 2:21

**21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." **

Again, when Paul uses the the phrase “The Law”, he is talking specifically about the Mosaic Law/ The Old Covenant:

Galatians 3:17

17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The 430 years clearly indicates that Paul has the Mosaic Law in mind when he says “The Law.” Therefore, when he uses the phrase “works of the law”, he has in mind all of the precepts associated with the Mosaic Law, especially the ceremonial laws. Note how often he refers to circumcision - which is a defining ritual of the Old Covenant - in Romans (especially Romans 4) and Galatians. Moreover, Paul makes a clear distinction between “The Law” and “The Law of Christ:”

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; ** **21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

The Law of Christ is love:

John 15:12

12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
James 2:8

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well

And by this law we shall be judged

James 2:12:

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Old Covenat now continues in the New Covenant as the Law of Christ and is given new life. The moral precepts in the Mosaic Law served to teach us what was sinful and to point out our sinfulness, but it had no power to deliver us from the power of sin (Romans 8:3). The moral law in the New Covenant is rooted in love, an internal principle that is the result of an internal change of the person, a fruit of the Cross of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

Your salvation is dependant on works(assuming your a OSASer), a profession of faith in public is a “work”.

If your faith is not proven by how you live then you have no faith. Works prove if you have faith.

I do believe that salvation is given as a free gift, and that the gift of salvation isn’t taken away from anyone because they continue to sin. The gift is free BECAUSE it doesn’t require sinners to earn it through either doing good, or by not doing evil. OSAS is what the bible teaches.

So in your view, we must do some kind of good works in order to prove to God that we really do have saving faith?

So it is completely deniable and utterly false to state that the Catholic view is that we are saved by works alone. Its difficult to state the Catholic view for someone who doesn’t understand the words of Christ and his Church.

I never said that the RC view is that you are saved by works alone.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The problem is that you are misunderstanding what Paul means by “the Law.” Romans 4 and all related passages in Romans and Galatians must be understood within their proper historical/ theological context. We must also understand what Paul meant by “The Law” and “the works of the Law.” There were those in the early years of the Church who were reverting to the Mosaic Law/ Old Covenant (i.e. circumcision, kosher laws, etc.). Many Jews and Judaizing Christians claimed that you could only be saved and be a child of God if you were a member of God’s chosen race. This could only occur in two ways: you are either born into it or you become a member by being circumcised and observing the Law of Moses. This is the controversy addressed by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The basic message of Paul in Romans and Galatians is that one cannot become righteous before God - liberation from the debt and power of sin - by observing the Mosaic law. If that were possible, then the Cross of Christ would not be necessary:

Galatians 2:21

**21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." **

Again, when Paul uses the the phrase “The Law”, he is talking specifically about the Mosaic Law/ The Old Covenant:

Galatians 3:17

17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The 430 years clearly indicates that Paul has the Mosaic Law in mind when he says “The Law.” Therefore, when he uses the phrase “works of the law”, he has in mind all of the precepts associated with the Mosaic Law, especially the ceremonial laws. Note how often he refers to circumcision - which is a defining ritual of the Old Covenant - in Romans (especially Romans 4) and Galatians. Moreover, Paul makes a clear distinction between “The Law” and “The Law of Christ:”

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

The Law of Christ is love:

John 15:12

12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
James 2:8

**8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” **you do well

And by this law we shall be judged

James 2:12:

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Old Covenat now continues in the New Covenant as the Law of Christ and is given new life. The moral precepts in the Mosaic Law served to teach us what was sinful and to point out our sinfulness, but it had no power to deliver us from the power of sin (Romans 8:3). The moral law in the New Covenant is rooted in love, an internal principle that is the result of an internal change of the person, a fruit of the Cross of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

The burden of proof is on you, to show some Scripture that shows what you are claiming, that there are different kinds of “works” or “law” and that Paul was in fact directing his attention to only one kind of law, or one kind of works of the law.

What Rome has done is to make salvation a process of cooperation rather than a free and completed gift. The process view is salvation based upon dying in a “state of grace” and it is possible (actually inevitable) that this state of grace will be lost by mortal sin. So the “saved” person is “saved” in name only, not in actual fact. The whole thing is designed to take all of our focus AWAY FROM JESUS and place us in bondage to a system of legalistic works (penance, confession, sacraments) that absolutely makes salvation a system of human merit. It is not the gospel of the bible, nor was it ever intended to be. It is a slap at the face of Jesus, for it insists that the finished work of Christ is insufficient for salvation by faith in Him, and in Him alone.

 

[mikeledes]

I do believe that salvation is given as a free gift, and that the gift of salvation isn’t taken away from anyone because they continue to sin. The gift is free BECAUSE it doesn’t require sinners to earn it through either doing good, or by not doing evil. OSAS is what the bible teaches.

And yet the Bible states that it can be taken away, at least if a person does the evil specified in the following verse:

Revelation 22:19 (KJV)

**19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. **

Revelation 22:19 (NASB)

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Here, the gift of salvation (i.e. the part in the holy city and tree of life) can be taken away by God.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ryanoneil]

Here is another example of the new law of Christ.

Rom. 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[mikeledes]

The burden of proof is on you, to show some Scripture that shows what you are claiming, that there are different kinds of “works” or “law” and that Paul was in fact directing his attention to only one kind of law, or one kind of works of the law.

What Rome has done is to make salvation a process of cooperation rather than a free and completed gift. The process view is salvation based upon dying in a “state of grace” and it is possible (actually inevitable) that this state of grace will be lost by mortal sin. So the “saved” person is “saved” in name only, not in actual fact. The whole thing is designed to take all of our focus AWAY FROM JESUS and place us in bondage to a system of legalistic works (penance, confession, sacraments) that absolutely makes salvation a system of human merit. It is not the gospel of the bible, nor was it ever intended to be. It is a slap at the face of Jesus, for it insists that the finished work of Christ is insufficient for salvation by faith in Him, and in Him alone.

Paul clearly defines what he means by “the Law” and he makes it clear that while Christians are not under “The Law”, they are under the Law of Christ and that they must conduct themselves accoprding to this law for by this law they shall be judged. We shall be judged according to how we have responded to God’s free gift of grace. We shall be judged according to our works.

A person who is in “a state of grace” is saved. A person who falls from grace is not. And the Bible clearly discusses the possibility of falling from grace.

I have more to say, but I don’t have the time right now.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Here is another example of the new law of Christ.

Rom. 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

Peace,

Ryan

It’s just interesting how he completely ignored all of the verses I listed regarding works and salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Romans 2:6-10

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Galatians 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

John 5:28-29

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Luke 10:25-28

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

Which is basically the same question and response in…

Matthew 19:16-17

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[No one is good but One, that is, God. [COLOR=“blue”]But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Which is a variant of what he said earlier in…

Matthew 7:21

**21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. **

Revelation 2:26

**26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— **

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

The Bible is pretty clear.

God bless,
Michael

:yawn:

 

[Sean_Boyle]

So in your view, we must do some kind of good works in order to prove to God that we really do have saving faith?

No one needs to prove to God anything. He knows already the outcome. He will be the ultimate judge of our lives.

My view is consistant with all of scripture including but not limited to James Ch.2. My view is that salvation comes as a grace of God, not required from God by an indiviuals profession in faith alone.

Your view of my view needs some work.

If you go on living the same sort of sinful life after your profession of faith, do you have salvation?

Are you saved if you do not love God, but have faith?

Are you saved if you are not obedent to God’s will but have faith?

 

[Odell]

The burden of proof is on you, to show some Scripture that shows what you are claiming, that there are different kinds of “works” or “law” and that Paul was in fact directing his attention to only one kind of law, or one kind of works of the law.

**
PROOF**

Here is another example of the new law of Christ.

Rom. 13:8-10 Owe nothing to anyone, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not kill; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this saying, (namely) “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law.

Peace,

Ryan

**YOUR TURN **

rather you agree with the verse or not answer the question that was asked of you.

Bible Christians should beable to answer Bible questions

What Rome has done is to make salvation a process of cooperation

You got the cooperation part right.

If I where you I would not just atend a bible believing Church but a bible believing Church that COOPERTATES with Christ the Lord

Questions that Nick refuses to answer

**1) **tell me what commandment I am breaking right now?

2) How do you respond to verses that talk about the rightous and the good?

**3) ** Are you among the
A: Evil
B: Good

4) Are you telling me that it is impossible to leave all your possessions behind and follow Jesus?

**5)**What does it mean to be free?

6) Freedom to break the commandments WHAT?

7) how do you **express LOVE **?

8) If you dont will that faith without expressed love count?
not f you read what you just wrote

9) PROVE taht works in general and the LAW is the same thing

10)
I asked you this before, but I will add something to the question now. What are the “good works” that God created us to do in Eph 2:10?

**11) **Also, what are the “works” or “fruit” that befit repentance spoken of by John the Baptist? What was He talking about?

12) But I will add one more. Who washes the saints robes in the book of revelation?

**13) **Are you saved if you are not obedent to God’s will but have faith?

 

[Philthy]

What Rome has done is to make salvation a process of cooperation rather than a free and completed gift.

Hi Nick-

What you are doing is claiming that no cooperation at all is necessary: the free and completed gift is free and complete. Yet you will agree that not everyone is going to heaven, right? Well, why not? Is there something God hasnt done for them or is there something they havent done? It is one or the other Nick: you either believe that despite Christs free and completed gift that WE MUST DO SOMETHING or you believe that WE DO NOTHING and God saves everyone.

The process view is salvation based upon dying in a “state of grace” and it is possible (actually inevitable) that this state of grace will be lost by mortal sin. So the “saved” person is “saved” in name only, not in actual fact.

Absolutely false on both counts: Mortal sin is not inevitable, and the saved person IS saved. You dont seem to like the idea that you can lose your salvation by rejecting it. “He who perseveres to the end will be saved”, he who doesnt won’t.

The whole thing is designed to take all of our focus AWAY FROM JESUS and place us in bondage to a system of legalistic works (penance, confession, sacraments) that absolutely makes salvation a system of human merit. It is not the gospel of the bible, nor was it ever intended to be. It is a slap at the face of Jesus, for it insists that the finished work of Christ is insufficient for salvation by faith in Him, and in Him alone.

Perhaps you would have preferred Christ to have said to the rich young man, “If you wish to be perfect, just believe that I’ve taken care of everything and you take care of nothing”. But Christ didnt say that, he said, “If you wish to be perfect, go sell your possessions, give them to the poor and come, follow me.”
It sounds to me like you have insulated yourself with a lot of fancy notions to rationalize why you aren’t living the holy, selfless life that our Lord calls us to live by following Him. It takes one to know one - I do the same thing, but at least I dont pretend there’s nothing wrong with it - or even worse, that he condones it - I ask Him for forgiveness.

 

[guanophore]

There is no way to avoid tension in a faith plus works justification formula.

This is true, which is why it is not used by Catholics. This model is an evangelical fabrication.

The RCC has devised a very complicated and legalistic scheme by which they try to reconcile things that cannot be reconciled.

I think it sure seems that way to evangelicals, because there has been a separation in Reformed Theology of justification, sanctification, and glorification. The Apostolic Teaching does not separate these from one another, so there is no problem reconciling them.

Paul repeatedly tells us that whatever is given as a free gift cannot be earned, and that our works have no role in saving us.

Actually, Paul is talking about works of the law (flesh) in those passages, and not the sacred works that God has prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

The bible doesn’t need to use the phrase, “faith alone” in order to teach the message that justification is by faith alone. There are numerous passages that clearly teach justification by faith alone even though the word “alone” doesn’t appear.

Only if you separate them from other verses that talk about the role of works.

The bible characterizes good works as the result of faith and salvation; not any part of the cause of it.

The Bible also does not separate them, either. I think it is a skewed understanding of the nature of salvation that causes this perceptual problem.

 

[guanophore]

You are mistaken. In Matt. 19, Jesus is making the opposite point–that no one keeps the commandments…

That is not what He is saying. No one can keep the commandments without Grace (help by the Spirit of God). Otherwise:

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechari’ah, of the division of Abi’jah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How can you be righteous and blameless before God if you are not keeping the commandments?

if keeping the commandments includes having no gods besides God. Let’s read the passage in context:

I agree that Jesus was trying to show the man that he was not keeping the commandments as well as he thought he was.

Likewise, in Gal.5:1-10 (in context) Paul is teaching the antithesis of your man-centered RC teaching that places an impossible burden (a yoke of slavery) on those who wish to follow Jesus by faith rather than by their works:

Clearly you have a misunderstanding about Catholic Teaching, which is Christ Centered. Unless you don’t believe Christ is God? Jesus made it clear that following HIm in faith meant keeping His commandments. He gave His spirit to empower us to keep them, knowing that we cannot do so without His power.

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

This reference to circumcision should tell you that he is talking about the Levitical law. That law does not apply to Christians.

The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Are you saying that love is just a fuzzy feeling, and does not include any work?

 

[guanophore]

I do believe that salvation is given as a free gift, and that the gift of salvation isn’t taken away from anyone because they continue to sin.

I agree with you. In such a case, the gift is not “taken away”, it is thrown away, by the person to which it was given for free.

OSAS is what the bible teaches.

Verily, this is what you have been taught to believe. But this is a new gospel, less than 500 years old. It is not the faith that comes to us from the Apostles.

So in your view, we must do some kind of good works in order to prove to God that we really do have saving faith?

That’s silly. God knows our hearts. He knows if our faith is real or pretend. Fruitbearing is more for ourselves and those around us, so that our faith can reach a dying world.

I never said that the RC view is that you are saved by works alone.

No, but you do misrepresent Catholicism, possibly because of ignorance, and being mislead by your teachers.

 

[guanophore]

Nick Jones;3146782:

You apparently haven’t considered that ANY FORM OF GOOD WORKS that is required by God for salvation IS LAW.

Who would make such a silly consideration? Such a line of thinking would imply that the commandments are no longer valid, which is the opposite of what Jesus taught. This is an erronous assumption,and is not worthy of consideration.
Nick Jones;3146782:

The system of grace is the system of free mercy, not slavery to the LAW. No gift that is given for free can require obligation from the recipient…or else it isn’t a free gift.

I agree about the gift, but the Law is also a gift. Following the Law is the fulfillment of joy for the Christian, who is able to do so by grace, and not by work of the flesh.

What is it about being a bondslave of Love that bothers you?

1 Cor 7:22
Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ.