Catholics are not saved by Works

[guanophore]

Only God can baptize a person by the Spirit. As for water baptism and participating in the Eucharist, are you making these things into works of the law? If so, then you will have to follow ALL of the law.

No, Nick, it is YOU who think they are “works of the Law”. For those of Apostolic faiths, they are channels by which the free gift of God’s grace flows, and perfect us in our faith, so that we can move closer to that purity without which no one will see God.

 

[guanophore]

Only God can baptize a person by the Spirit. As for water baptism and participating in the Eucharist, are you making these things into works of the law? If so, then you will have to follow ALL of the law.

If only God can baptize, then why did He tell His Apostles to do it?

Matt 28:18-20
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

And why is it spoken of at the same time as following the commandments?

This claim of yours that some required works are law, while other required works are not law is nonsense.

It surely is nonsense, Nick. You can read yourself in the verse above that we are to “do all I have commanded”. Is fulfilling the law of Love through the freedom we have in Christ incomprehensible to you?

it is undeniable that in the RC view, your salvation is completely and utterly dependent upon doing enough of some kind of works…

It is undeniable that this appears to be what you have been taught about Catholicsim, and that you seem to believe this misinformation with all your heart.

and that this is not merely a suggestion but a command, and your soul is lost forever if you treat these required works as something other than a command of law.

Clearly you don’t understand Christianity, Nick. What I am wondering is if you really are interested in learning what Christianity teaches?

1 John 5:1-5
5:1 Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that overcomes the world, our faith.

For the Christian, obedience to the commandments is not based in fear but in love. Furthermore, the commandments are not burdensome (“slavery”) but an avenue of freedom. We realize that when we walk in the way of Love, we are truly set free in all ways. Why would someone abandon such a life of obedience by spurning them?

Whatever God commands to us is law,

I am not sure this is true, based on your understanding of “law”. You seem to equate the Levitical Law with the Law of Grace and freedom,which makes it seem like you dont’ recognize the difference.

 

[guanophore]

What Rome has done is to make salvation a process of cooperation rather than a free and completed gift.

this is an error of that “either / or” Reformed Thinking. These two are not “either/or” but “both/and”. Salvation is a process of cooperation, It is a free gift, and a completed gift. Jesus has done HIs part to complete the gift. We are still in the midst of our part.

The process view is salvation based upon dying in a “state of grace” and it is possible (actually inevitable) that this state of grace will be lost by mortal sin.

Dying in a state of grace is not related to the “process view”. An immediatly baptized person can die in a state of grace, as can a martyr. No matter how far they have to go in the path to holiness, they are in a state of grace.

Furthermore, it is an error that people have to sin. Jesus has given us all power by His spirit, and this power includes that necessary to overcome sin. We are in Christ, and we are to fix our thoughts on things above, where He is seated at the right hand of the Father. We have been transferred from the kingdom of darkenss into the kingdom of light. We no longer are slaves to sin. It is not “inevitable” that a person lose the state of grace by mortal sin. If you believe that a Christian inevitably has to sin, then you don’t understand the meaning of Baptism

So the “saved” person is “saved” in name only, not in actual fact.

This is only the case for OSAS persons who don’t believe that sanctification is necessary. It is also a misconstruction of the notion of faith. Although there are some aspects of our salvation that have been completed, there are some that are still in process, and some that are yet to come. It is not a single completed event that occurs in the past.

The whole thing is designed to take all of our focus AWAY FROM JESUS and place us in bondage to a system of legalistic works (penance, confession, sacraments) that absolutely makes salvation a system of human merit.  It is not the gospel of the bible, nor was it ever intended to be.  It is a slap at the face of Jesus, for it insists that the finished work of Christ is insufficient for salvation by faith in Him, and in Him alone.

You really have been maliciously misled about Catholicism, Nick. It is my prayer that you, and ll those like you who have been instructed in such lies may be delivered once and for all from the deceitful spirit that promulgates such calumny.

 

[mikeledes]

The burden of proof is on you, to show some Scripture that shows what you are claiming, that there are different kinds of “works” or “law” and that Paul was in fact directing his attention to only one kind of law, or one kind of works of the law.

I have provided scriptural evidence that demonstrates that there are two laws that Paul talks about:The Law (of Moses) and the Law of Christ. I will list these verses again, just in case you overlooked them:

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

**20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; ** **21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. **

In these verses, Paul contrasts “the Law” (v. 20) with the “Law of Christ” (v. 21). In Galatians, Paul also makes it clear what he means when he refers to the Law. In Galatians 2 and 3, Paul asserts and reasserts that no one is justified by “the Law” or the “works of the Law.” In order to understand this, we must understand what he means by “the Law:”

Galatians 3:17

17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Here he clearly states that “the Law” came 430 years after Abraham. What “law” came 430 years after Abraham? The Law of Moses! This makes it quite clear that when Paul says “the Law” or “works of the Law”, he is referring to the Mosaic Law. One particular work of the Mosaic Law that he targeted was circumcision, which was one of its defining precepts:

Galatians 5:1-6

**1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. **

What matters is faith working through love. This is the fundamental principal of the New Law, the Law of Christ (Galatians 5:14, 6:2). And what does faith working through love entail?

1 Corinthians 7:19

19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Now compare this verse again with Galatians 5:6. It basically defines what faith working through love means in our everyday lives.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

:
But the “free” gift that you say God gives is actually worse–it is bondage. Even the owners of slaves probably at least tell their slaves what is expected of them. But the god that you believe in doesn’t even tell you how much good work has been prepared for you…so that you can be “saved” to do them!

I’ve divided my response to you into three posts due to lack of space. This is such a gross misconception of Catholic teaching. Catholics do not believe that you need a certain quantity of good works in order to be saved. A person who is in a state of grace is in a state of salvation and forgiveness and must be in this state in order to perform good works. If a person were to die in a state of grace prior to performing any good works, that person would go to heaven.

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

Continuation…

The Cross of Christ has delivered us from the power of sin and made us free. However, we are given this freedom to love and serve God, to bear righteous fruit:

Galatians 5:13-14

**13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” **

Romans 7:4-6

4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

God gives us the free gift of justification and we must, in turn, conform our lives to that gift:

Romans 6:12-14, 16-18

**12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. **

We are under obligation to conform our lives to the gift of righteousness:

Romans 8:12-13

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

We must by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the body and that means making our bodies - by the Spirit - instruments of righteousness and this, in turn, means sowing righteousness:

Galatians 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

If we do not conform our lives to this giftof righteousness as Romans 8:12-13, we shall die. This reminds me of:

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Failure to conform our lives to God’s gifts and use them for the greater glory of God will result in these gifts being taken away and eternal damnation:

Revelation 22:19

**19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. **

God bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

The problem is that you are misunderstanding what Paul means by “the Law.” Romans 4 and all related passages in Romans and Galatians must be understood within their proper historical/ theological context. We must also understand what Paul meant by “The Law” and “the works of the Law.” There were those in the early years of the Church who were reverting to the Mosaic Law/ Old Covenant (i.e. circumcision, kosher laws, etc.). Many Jews and Judaizing Christians claimed that you could only be saved and be a child of God if you were a member of God’s chosen race. This could only occur in two ways: you are either born into it or you become a member by being circumcised and observing the Law of Moses. This is the controversy addressed by the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. The basic message of Paul in Romans and Galatians is that one cannot become righteous before God - liberation from the debt and power of sin - by observing the Mosaic law. If that were possible, then the Cross of Christ would not be necessary:

Galatians 2:21

**21"I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly." **

Again, when Paul uses the the phrase “The Law”, he is talking specifically about the Mosaic Law/ The Old Covenant:

Galatians 3:17

17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

The 430 years clearly indicates that Paul has the Mosaic Law in mind when he says “The Law.” Therefore, when he uses the phrase “works of the law”, he has in mind all of the precepts associated with the Mosaic Law, especially the ceremonial laws. Note how often he refers to circumcision - which is a defining ritual of the Old Covenant - in Romans (especially Romans 4) and Galatians. Moreover, Paul makes a clear distinction between “The Law” and “The Law of Christ:”

1 Corinthians 9:20-21

20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law.

The Law of Christ is love:

John 15:12

12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
James 2:8

**8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” **you do well

And by this law we shall be judged

James 2:12:

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

The moral law of God formerly expressed in the Old Covenat now continues in the New Covenant as the Law of Christ and is given new life. The moral precepts in the Mosaic Law served to teach us what was sinful and to point out our sinfulness, but it had no power to deliver us from the power of sin (Romans 8:3). The moral law in the New Covenant is rooted in love, an internal principle that is the result of an internal change of the person, a fruit of the Cross of Christ.

God Bless,
Michael

Now I understand. There was the OT law of Moses, and there is now the NT law of love. But in RC teaching, the new law which is based on love is law–we are still under a legal obligation to demonstrate our love by the good things that we must do. These good works might include feeding the hungry, caring for those who are ill, providing shelter for the homeless, and so on.

How is the new law better? Are you now more likely to love God just because you are now under the law of love? What did M. Luther discover in this matter? He found that in spite of the fact that he wore himself out doing prayers and penances, fastings, and bible readings, in the end, he was never sure that he had demonstrated his faith sufficiently by his good works. He began to hate God for tormenting his soul night and day with such a heavy and endless burden. But when the grace of God came to him, Luther understood that we are saved by faith, and not by our good works, and that the law (every kind of law) only serves to show us how dreadfully sinful we really are. By God’s grace, the law pointed the way to mercy.

 

[mikeledes]

Now I understand. There was the OT law of Moses, and there is now the NT law of love. But in RC teaching, the new law which is based on love is law–we still are under a legal obligation to demonstrate our love by the good things that we must do. These good works might include feeding the hungry, caring for those who are ill, providing shelter for the homeless, and so on.

How is the new law better? Are you now more likely to love God just because you are now under the law of love? What did M. Luther discover in this matter? He found that in spite of the fact that he wore himself out doing prayers and penances, fastings, and bible readings, in the end, he was never sure that he had demonstrated his faith sufficiently by his good works. He began to hate God for tormenting his soul with such a heavy and endless burden. But when the grace of God came to him, Luther understood that we are saved by faith, and not by our good works, and that the law (every kind of law) only serves to show us how dreadfully sinful we really are.

It’s better because we have been delivered from the power of sin, in a state of grace, given the Holy Spirit, and thus empowered to love God. Prior to being justified and thus in a state of grace, this was absolutley impossible. Was there a change in behavior when you became a Christian?

Regarding Martin Luther, he has his own psychological/ emotional issues. However, Martin Luther believed in baptismal regeneration and he did not believe in OSAS.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

BTW, Nick, are you a Calvinist?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

It’s better because we have been delivered from the power of sin, in a state of grace, given the Holy Spirit, and thus empowered to love God. Prior to being justified and thus in a state of grace, this was absolutley impossible. Was there a change in behavior when you became a Christian?

Regarding Martin Luther, he has his own psychological/ emotional issues. However, Martin Luther believed in baptismal regeneration and he did not believe in OSAS.

God Bless,
Michael

You have completely missed the whole point of what was driving M. Luther crazy. He was very aware of the RC teaching that salvation is totally man-centered and that one is “saved” only when one is “righteous enough” for salvation. For Luther, it seemed that he was losing his salvation on a daily basis because his sins were daily sins. As long as our salvation is dependent upon our own righteousness, there is nothing but fear, and thus no way to live by faith in the finished work of Jesus. The bible speaks of the peace that we have through faith in Jesus. Faith drives away fear.

 

[Nick_Jones]

BTW, Nick, are you a Calvinist?

God Bless,
Michael

No, my trust is in Jesus Christ, who is the Savior.

 

[mikeledes]

You have completely missed the whole point of what was driving M. Luther crazy. He was very aware of the RC teaching that salvation is totally man-centered and that one is “saved” only when one is “righteous enough” for salvation. For Luther, it seemed that he was losing his salvation on a daily basis because his sins were daily sins. As long as our salvation is dependent upon our own righteousness, there is nothing but fear, and thus no way to live by faith in the finished work of Jesus. The bible speaks of the peace that we have through faith in Jesus. Faith drives away fear.

I know what your point was and your point remains wrong. Catholics believe that good works can only be done by one who has been regenerated by God. That our faith and love for God and neighbor, implanted there by God Himself, inspires us to do the good works pleasing to Him. We also believe that the gift of final perseverance (i.e. dying in a state of grace) is unmerited and given by God to whomever He wishes.

Luther’s personal emotional experience is subjective and should not be used to determine the validity of Catholic teachings. There are plenty of Protestants who have left Protestantism and became Catholic because of an internal struggle as. They did not have that peace you claim they should have despite the fact that they believed in faith alone.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

No, my trust is in Jesus Christ, who is the Savior.

Calvin claimed the same thing. Do you believe that TULIP is the biblical teaching regarding salvation? Do you share the same understanding of predestination that Calvinists uphold?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What I find interesting, Nick, is that you have consistently ignored most of the following verses:

Romans 2:6-10

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Galatians 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

John 5:28-29

**28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. **

Luke 10:25-28

**25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.” **

Which is basically the same question and response in…

Matthew 19:16-17

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good?[No one is good but One, that is, God. [COLOR=“blue”]But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

Which is a variant of what he said earlier in…

Matthew 7:21

**21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. **

Revelation 2:26

**26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations— **

1 Timothy 6:18-19

18 Let them do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to give, willing to share, 19 storing up for themselves a good foundation for the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

The Bible is pretty clear.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You have completely missed the whole point of what was driving M. Luther crazy. He was very aware of the RC teaching that salvation is totally man-centered and that one is “saved” only when one is “righteous enough” for salvation. For Luther, it seemed that he was losing his salvation on a daily basis because his sins were daily sins. As long as our salvation is dependent upon our own righteousness, there is nothing but fear, and thus no way to live by faith in the finished work of Jesus. The bible speaks of the peace that we have through faith in Jesus. Faith drives away fear.

Moreover, you keep bringing up the idea of quantity (i.e. how many works are necessary?, righteous enough.) This has nothing to do with Catholic theology. We are not attaining for a certain level of righteousness in order to be saved. The moment a person is justified, even prior to any good work they perform, they have “enough” righteousness to go to heaven. They are in a state of grace. The goal of the Catholic is to remain in a state of grace and grow in grace. We do not want to be severed from Christ:

Galatians 5:4 (NASB)

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Romans 11:20-22

**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **

You said faith drives out fear and yet here Paul is telling Gentile Christians to fear? Fear what? Fear being cut off!

John exhorts Christians to abide in Christ:

1 John 2:28

28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.

Why shrink away in shame? Because they know what’s coming, everlasting shame:

John 15:1-6

1"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2"Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

How does one abide in Christ?

1 John 2:24

24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.

And what is that they heard from the beginning?

2 John 5-6 (Compare with 1 John 2:7)

**5Now I ask you, lady, not as though I were writing to you a new commandment, but the one which we have had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. **

And John 15:10

10"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

What I find interesting, Nick, is that you have consistently ignored most of the following verses:

Romans 2:6-10

6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

I have never denied that WE MUST BE FOUND RIGHTEOUS in both our thoughts and our deeds in order to be saved. You believe in earning your salvation through attaining a righteousness of your own, while I am trusting in a righteous that is from God, and is by faith in Jesus.

Rom. 9:14-16
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Rom. 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”

Are you under a law that makes your salvation dependent upon your good works to demonstrate your faith, or are you under God’s free grace? One leads to fear and is incompatible with faith; the other sets sinners free from fear and makes sinners extremely grateful to God for His wonderful mercy.

 

[mikeledes]

I have never denied that WE MUST BE FOUND RIGHTEOUS in both our thoughts and our deeds in order to be saved. You believe in earning your salvation through attaining a righteousness of your own, while I am trusting in a righteous that is from God, and is by faith in Jesus.

Once again you are misconstruing Catholic teachings. Catholics do not believe that our standing before God is the sum total of our righteous works. We do not do good works in order to become righteous before God. We become righteous before God in order to do good works. We must first enter into a salvific relationship with God - be right with God - before we can do any righteous work pleasing to Him. However, we can fall from grace:

Revelation 22:19

19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

Matthew 25:14-30

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
20 “So he who had received five talents came and brought five other talents, saying, ‘Lord, you delivered to me five talents; look, I have gained five more talents besides them.’ 21 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’ 22 He also who had received two talents came and said, ‘Lord, you delivered to me two talents; look, I have gained two more talents besides them.’ 23 His lord said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord.’
24 “Then he who had received the one talent came and said, ‘Lord, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid your talent in the ground. Look, there you have what is yours.’
26 “But his lord answered and said to him, ‘You wicked and lazy servant, you knew that I reap where I have not sown, and gather where I have not scattered seed. 27 So you ought to have deposited my money with the bankers, and at my coming I would have received back my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

So you say we must be found righteous in thoughts and deeds in order to be saved. Is this after one has been justified?

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Are you under a law that makes your salvation dependent upon your good works to demonstrate your faith, or are you under God’s free grace? One leads to fear and is incompatible with faith; the other sets sinners free from fear and makes sinners extremely grateful to God for His wonderful mercy.

I’m under the Law of Christ. God, through His Holy Spirit, has poured the love of God in my heart and that inspires me to obey and serve Him. I also recognize that I have the freedom to grieve the Holy Spirit and chose to turn away from him, as genuine Christians have done in the past and do in the present:

Galatians 1:6

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,

I recognize that while I have been freed from sin, I have an obligation to use that freedom for the greater glory of God:

Romans 6:12-14

**12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
**

And that if I fail to fulfill this obligation - despite the fact that God has given me all of the gifts necessary to do so - I will fall from grace:

Romans 8:12-13 (NASB)

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

Revelation 22:19 (NKJV)

19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Matthew 25:28-29

28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away.
30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

John 15:16

**6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. **

I recognize that the good that I do is the result of being united to Christ thanks to God’s great mercy expressed in the Cross:

John 15:5

5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Therefore, the glory is not mine, but His. If this work is not rooted in a humble attitude of service, then it is not pleasing to God:

Luke 17:10

10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do
.

I also recognize that I will be judged by the Law of Christ (i.e. love) and must act accordingly:

James 2:12

12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

1 Peter 1:17

17 And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear

Knowing that I will reap what I sow:

Galatians 6:7-9

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

Revelation 2:26

26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations

Thus I want to be found righteous in thought and in deed till the end so that I will have not received " the grace of God in vain" (2 Corinthians 6:1)

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I will not be online for the weekend. I hope you all have a blessed weekend.

God Bless,
Michael