Catholics are not saved by Works

[peary]

Again…

For Catholic Christians, we are saved by GRACE ALONE. But we are JUSTIFIED by our works in the sight of God.

 

[mikeledes]

It is apparent that you have a lot of confidence in your own righteousness:

I have a lot of confidence in a merciful God who gives me the strength to do what is good and forgives me when I sin and repent.

Are you morally better than those who use their freedom NOT to grieve the Holy Spirit and turn away from Him? Why are you able to use your freedom so well?

Have I said that I never grieve the Holy Spirit?

Is your RC gospel the same gospel preached by the apostles? Did any of the apostles teach anything about popes or infallible human teachers?

A 2000 year old church that has unbroken historical, institutional (through apostolic succession) and theological continuity with the apostolic age vs a fragmented Protestant movement that started nearly 1500 years after the apostolic age. My answer is yes to your first question. To your second question, my answer is also yes. However, since this thread is about salvation, I won’t go into details. If you want to discuss this, you can start a new thread.

How can you know that you have “not let sin reign” in you enough for your salvation? Are you a sinner, or are you just less sinful than most people?

I know when I sin and I know when I don’t sin. When I do sin, I make sure I repent. Once again you bring up this notion of “quantity.” Catholics do not teach you have to attain a certain level of holiness or righteousness in order to be saved. You can certainly grow in holiness. However, the important thing is being in a state of grace. My question to you is this: was there a change in your behavior after you became a Christian?

Are you trusting in your own goodness to fulfill your obligation or are you relying on the goodness and mercy of God?

I’m trusting the Holy Spirit who guides me in all that is good.

What is the basis of your ability to NOT live according to the flesh? Why are you trusting in your own goodness for your salvation?

Do you live according to the flesh? What is the basis of your ability? Why are you asking me loaded questions?

If you DO abide in Him, would it be because of your own goodness? Why do some people fail to abide in Him?

I abide in Christ because of His grace. Others fail to abide because they reject His grace.

What have you done to be united to Christ? Are you united to Christ because your free will was morally better than those who reject Him?

I have done what Christ has told me to do to be united to Him:

Mark 16:16

**16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. **

Do you ever sin? If so, how much “sowing to your flesh” is too much? Does this passage make you more confident of your own worthiness for salvation or less confident?

When I sin and repent, I restore my relationship with God. Now I ask you, why must we sow to the Spirit in order to reap eternal life? I thought we didn’t have to do anything?

Are you confident of your ability to keep His works until the end?

Are you? Why must we keep His works until the end in order to be saved?

How do you plan to be found righteous in thought and deed till the end? Are you trusting in what you do, or in what Jesus has already done for your salvation

I place my trust in the Holy Spirit given to me as a result of the Cross of Christ. I submit to His leadership, knowing that He will only guide me to that which is good and true. God has also given us His moral law. That way we know what is right and what is wrong.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

If it is true that not doing good is sin, is one good work enough for your salvation?

There you go with “quantity” again. Catholics do not believe you need a certain number of good works to be saved. You don’t need to attain a certain level of holiness to be saved. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat myself.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

BTW, Catholics believe the following regarding predestination:

**But in any case, from this minimum admitted by all we get three propositions to which all Catholic theologians subscribe. They are: (1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits. **

Moreover, man cannot persevere without divine aid and the gift of final perseverance is a free gift of God that cannot be merited.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What does “GRACE” mean? I thought that if we are saved by grace, it means that salvation is given for free–as in a gift, which by the nature of a free gift…cannot possibly require any cost or obligation by the one to whom the gift is given.

Gifts do not mean no obligations. You can give me a plant as a gift. Since it is a gift, I obviously didn’t have to pay for it. However, this gift comes with obligations. I have to water that plant, make sure it has enough sunlight, etc. If I don’t do this, it will die. The fact that this gift has these obligations in order to keep it alive does not take away from it being a free gift.

God freely forgives our sins, regenerates us, and adopts us as His children. This, however, does not free us from the obligation of conforming our lives to this great gift:

Romans 6:12-13

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God

Romans 8:12-13

**12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh–
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. **

We are under obligation to put to death by the Spirit the deeds of the body. If we do so, we will live. How do we do that?

Luke 10:25-28

**25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?”
27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”
28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.” **

This is Jesus’s response to the man’s response regarding inheriting eternal life. How different it is from the Protestant repsonse. Entrance into the eternal kingdom depends on a faith that works through love:

Galatians 5:6

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

And this necessarily entails keeping the commandments as a visible manifestation of this love:

1 Corinthians 7:19

**19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. **

2 John 6

**6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. **

Any gift that God gives us that’s not used for the greater glory of God will be taken away:

Matthew 25:14-19, 28-30

14 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. 15 And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey. 16 Then he who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and made another five talents. 17 And likewise he who had received two gained two more also. 18 But he who had received one went and dug in the ground, and hid his lord’s money. 19 After a long time the lord of those servants came and settled accounts with them.
28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has ten talents.
29 ‘For to everyone who has, more will be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

I have a lot of confidence in a merciful God who gives me the strength to do what is good and forgives me when I sin and repent.

But the question that no RC seems to be able to answer is why are you able to do what is good, and why are you repentant while many others are not? If you say its because you don’t reject grace, then again, why do you accept grace, and cooperate with grace while many other people don’t?

I know when I sin and I know when I don’t sin. When I do sin, I make sure I repent. Once again you bring up this notion of “quantity.” Catholics do not teach you have to attain a certain level of holiness or righteousness in order to be saved. You can certainly grow in holiness. However, the important thing is being in a state of grace.

How did you get this “state of grace”? And how do you remain in it?

My question to you is this: was there a change in your behavior after you became a Christian?

My whole attitude and outlook on the meaning of life changed. I had become born again in the Spirit. And, yes, my behavior has changed as a result of regeneration and faith in Jesus.

I abide in Christ because of His grace. Others fail to abide because they reject His grace.

Why have you accepted His grace, while other people have rejected it? Are you morally better than those who reject grace?

When I sin and repent, I restore my relationship with God.

This sounds like a process of salvation that is completely dependent on YOUR goodness. You accept grace…you restore your relationship, etc.

Now I ask you, why must we sow to the Spirit in order to reap eternal life? I thought we didn’t have to do anything?

We must trust in Jesus, and in Him alone to save us from our sins. This is how we “sow to the Spirit.” And no one will place their faith in Jesus alone for salvation without first being born again.

 

[mikeledes]

But the question that no RC seems to be able to answer is why are you able to do what is good, and why are you repentant while many others are not? If you say its because you don’t reject grace, then again, why do you accept grace, and cooperate with grace while many other people don’t?

Why did you believe and others did not? Why did you repent and others did not?

How did you get this “state of grace”? And how do you remain in it?

Mark 16:16

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 2:37-38

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1 John 2:24

**24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. **

1 John 2:17

17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

John 15:10

10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

My whole attitude and outlook on the meaning of life changed. I had become born again in the Spirit. And, yes, my behavior has changed as a result of regeneration and faith in Jesus.

And Catholics believe that a change in conduct is the outcome of faith and regeneration.

Why have you accepted His grace, while other people have rejected it? Are you morally better than those who reject grace?

Why have you believed andf others have not?

This sounds like a process of salvation that is completely dependent on YOUR goodness. You accept grace…you restore your relationship, etc.

And you place your faith in Christ and are saved.

We must trust in Jesus, and in Him alone to save us from our sins. This is how we “sow to the Spirit.” And no one will place their faith in Jesus alone for salvation without first being born again

And yet this is not what Scripture says sowing to the Spirit is:

Galatians 6:7-10

7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

BTW, based on your responses Nick, I’m assuming you believe TULIP is biblical teaching?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[ryanoneil]

If it is true that not doing good is sin, is one good work enough for your salvation?

That depends if you believe this is one good work.

Luke 10:27 *“You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” *

If we do this it is impossible to sin.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Odell]

Do you have any gods besides the God who created all that exists?

My God is Jesus Christ and him alone. I dont know what you believe but he did create all that exists. Therefore he was there before anything else therfore there can be no other God. When the one and only created everything.

I acknowledge that there are righteous people and unrighteous people living on the earth. However, we probably disagree on what (or who) it is that makes a person righteous.

WE DO ?

I thought it was GRACE if thats not what you belive than your teaching is not biblical. It is Gods grace that makes us, rightous got it?

If you’re asking which group I belong to, I’m one of those who will be found having a righteousness that is not from myself. By God’s grace I have the faith that places me “in Christ” and saves me by the perfect righteousness of Jesus.

You think my righteousness Is from MYSELF? Can someone be righteous without God?

It would be impossible for me to do that, but my salvation isn’t dependent on my own goodness but instead my salvation is based upon the goodness of God, and in Him alone.

Its not impossible IF that is what Christ calls you to do and gives you the gace to do so if you refuse to do so then you would go to hell.

For me, being free is not to live in fear of God’s wrath for my sins.

are you any better of then Paul

(1Cor 9: 26-27) I train my body for fear that after preaching to others I myself should not be disqualified.

This is true Freedom of the Law

"Most people look at Christian morality-especially sexual morality-as an oppressive list of rules to follow. How far this misunderstanding is from the living morality proclaimed by Christ! The Gospel doesn’t give us more rules to follow. The Gospel is meant to change our hearts so that we no longer need the rules(see Cathichsm 1968) To the degree that we experience this change of heart, we experience freedom from the law (Rom 7, Gal 5), not freedom to break the law; freedom to fulfill it. Here’s an example of what freedom from the law looks like: Do you have any desire to murder your best friend? This may seem like an odd question, but it actually demonstrates the point. Assuming you do not, then you don’t need that commandment. Thou shall not murder thy best friend. Why? Because you have no desire to break it. To this extent you are free from the law. In other words, you don’t experience this law as an imposition because your heart conforms to it. Before original sin, the human heart conformed to Gods heart. That is what Christ came back for to show us how to conform our will to His will, and the Church is there to help.

When we allow Christ into our hearts we no longer need the law because we no longer desire to break them. What law do you still need? What teachings of the Church still feel like a burden or imposition to you? Perhaps the problem isn’t the law or the Church, but with your “hardness of heart” don’t throw away the law, surrender your disordered desires to Christ and let him transform them.”

• Christopher West Theology of the body for beginners

continued…

 

[Odell]

We were all born in sin. No one keeps the commandments.

as of right now im keeping the commandments. And if I break one I repent.

Mainly by telling other people the good news about what Jesus has done on the cross.

I do as James “I will demonstrate my faith to you by my works.”

The faith that saves will be expressed in love.

DUE that would be a working Faith

(Gal 5:6) “Only faith working through love counts for anything.” That is how we put faith in action, WORKING through love. Faith has to work to count for anything; it cannot be by itself.

You seem to have misunderstood what I’ve said. I don’t think works in general are necessarily works of law. But I do believe that any kind of works that are required of us for our salvation are works of the law.

Exactly what did Christ mean when he said if you abide in my commandments you abide in me or if you abide in my commandment you will enter life?

If the Spirit of God is in you, He will reveal this to you. Everyone is given certain gifts and some people are blessed with more of a certain gift than others. My gift is spreading the message of hope and forgiveness to those who are running away from God.

I would say the gift God gives Catholics is

“I will demonstrate my faith to you by my works.” James

if you have the faith that saves, you will be found righteous (obedient) in God’s sight.

Oh so you dont have to be obedient because you are in the eyes of God even if your arnt obedient.

so who was Christ telling to be obedient? And why? when they are?

But the question that no RC seems to be able to answer is why are you able to do what is good,

**GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE,
GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, GRACE, **

and why are you repentant while many others are not? If you say its because you don’t reject grace, then again, why do you accept grace, and cooperate with grace while many other people don’t?

STUMPER ** **

Is YOUR Faith something that is all YOU?
NOPE.

IS it From Gods GRACE?
YEP.

Why do you have faith? Why do you accept Gods grac ehtrew Faith and many other not?

YOU DONT HAVE TO ANSWER I KNOW IT A TUFF ONE:thumbsup:

How did you get this “state of grace”? And how do you remain in it?

repent

I know what your thinking God iniciates the repentance
**
GRACE! **

My whole attitude and outlook on the meaning of life changed. I had become born again in the Spirit. And, yes, my behavior has changed as a result of regeneration and faith in Jesus.

Mine too.

This sounds like a process of salvation that is completely dependent on YOUR goodness. You accept grace…you restore your relationship, etc.

God certainly isnt going to force me to repent will he? He wouldnt force his Grace on me would he?

But repentence is necessary read the Scriptures

We must trust in Jesus, and in Him alone to save us from our sins. This is how we “sow to the Spirit.” And no one will place their faith in Jesus alone for salvation without first being born again.

NO one who inst baptised is born again

 

[guanophore]

**The Catholic position is - we are saved by GRACE ALONE, but we are JUSTIFIED in the sight of God through our works. **

I don’t think this would work well as a beginner apologetic with a Protestant because of the different meaning of the words. Using the word “justified” this way would just spread more misunderstanding. It might be better to say that we are judged according to our works.

Grace alone cannot save, because it has to be mixed with faith. God’s grace can cover all, but does not, because not everyone accepts it. Once a person accepts grace through faith, one lives a life of faith, working through love. The works of faith cannot be separated from the grace upon which they are founded.

 

[guanophore]

God took our sins away from us and placed them on Jesus at the cross–a legal transfer of sin from us to Him, so why is it impossible for God to impute His perfect righteousness to those whom He has chosen to save (a legal transfer of righteousness from Him to us)?

Rom. 5:19
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

The sins were not transferred, but the penalty of them. Yes, it is true that God imputes righteousness to us. That does NOT mean that he makes all our evil deeds righteous. Sins and evildoing don’t get changed into non-sins. The penalty for them is set aside, because Jesus paid him on the cross. He begins by imputing righteousness to us, then proceeds to make us into the righteous persons He has declared us to be (sanctification).

 

[guanophore]

If it is true that not doing good is sin, is one good work enough for your salvation?

Read what he said again, Nick, and think about it before you react so foolishly.

Qunatity of works per se have nothing to do with the Catholic view of salvation, so we do not worry whether we have enough works or not. What we are concerned about is being in state of grace and not falling from grace through sin. Not doing good is sin.

God Bless,
Michael

It is about whether one is in a state of grace, or not. Yes, one deed can take one out of a state of grace, and one deed can put somone into a state of grace.

Salvation is by grace, through faith, and not of works. The deeds of a person either take someone in or out of grace. Think of it as a river. One can get in, and stay in, get in and then get out, or refuse to get in at all!

 

[Kolbe300]

Nick Jones,

Hello there! I’ve been reading over this thread and it seems to me as if you are looking at how Catholics view salvation from the wrong direction. It seems to me (correct me if I’m wrong) that you believe Catholics are trying to earn or work their way to salvation. Fortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. I believe similarly to you, that we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ. I believe where we differ is in the definition of “faith.” There are not enough good works I or anyone else is capable of doing to “earn” salvation. There is not a “good works” scoreboard in heaven with a “saved” goal at the top of it. God gives us the gift of salvation. It is perfect, it is complete, there is absolutely nothing we can do to add to that gift or take away from that gift. What we CAN do, what each and every one of us is capable of doing, is walking away from the perfect gift God offers us.

I gather from your posts that you don’t believe it is possible for you to turn down God’s gift of salvation? Is that true? If it is, do you mean it is impossible for you to commit a deadly sin or it simply doesn’t matter if you do? I honestly am not sure where you stand with regards to that.

Anyways, I hope you can see that we are not adding to or trying to “complete” the gift of salvation. We simply believe in picking up our cross every day and holding onto the gift God offers. Only through Christ can we possibly follow Christ. I cannot boast because no good work of mine is mine. It is Christ working through me. We should all strive to follow the path of Christ and one day, through God’s grace, we can look back as St. Paul did and say that we have fought the good fight and finished the race.

Have a great week and God bless!

 

[guanophore]

Now I understand. There was the OT law of Moses, and there is now the NT law of love. But in RC teaching, the new law which is based on love is law–we are still under a legal obligation to demonstrate our love by the good things that we must do.

Where did you find THAT!?

The obligation is one of love. “After you have done all that is commanded of you, say, ‘we are unworthy servants, we have only done that which is our duty’”. Where is the “law” in this?

These good works might include feeding the hungry, caring for those who are ill, providing shelter for the homeless, and so on.

Do you not consider these things that Jesus has commanded us to do?

If His commandments are burdensome, then one is not in a state of grace, and they are then works of the flesh, with no eternal value. Many heathens do charitable works. It does not make them right with God.

How is the new law better?  Are you now more likely to love God just because you are now under the law of love?  What did M. Luther discover in this matter?  He found that in spite of the fact that he wore himself out doing prayers and penances, fastings, and bible readings, in the end, he was never sure that he had demonstrated his faith sufficiently by his good works.

This is true, because he was not in a state of grace when he did them.

He began to hate God for tormenting his soul night and day with such a heavy and endless burden.

He was grossly misguided, was he not?

But when the grace of God came to him, Luther understood that we are saved by faith, and not by our good works, and that the law (every kind of law) only serves to show us how dreadfully sinful we really are.  By God's grace, the law pointed the way to mercy.

Thanks be to God, that while we were yet sinners, Christ came to us. Luther’s insight into grace is what the Church has always taught. It is just not the only thing taught. The Church teaches the whole gospel as presented by Christ, that we are judged by our deeds.

You have completely missed the whole point of what was driving M. Luther crazy. He was very aware of the RC teaching that salvation is totally man-centered and that one is “saved” only when one is “righteous enough” for salvation.

This is not what the Church teaches, or ever has. I agree that M.L. did not understand the Teaching, just as many Catholics do not today. I also fault the church for poor catechesis.

It is true that one must be “righteous enough” to enter heaven. Nothing unclean shall enter heaven.

For Luther, it seemed that he was losing his salvation on a daily basis because his sins were daily sins.

We can all get out of a state of grace daily. I can appreciate the struggle that we all have to remain in a state of grace, and to avoid sin. Do you think his struggle was any worse than anyone elses?

As long as our salvation is dependent upon our own righteousness, there is nothing but fear, and thus no way to live by faith in the finished work of Jesus. The bible speaks of the peace that we have through faith in Jesus. Faith drives away fear.

This is very Catholic of you to say.

 

[mgrfin]

Protestant Value of Good Works:

Part I

Luther evolved a theory which is a combination of pessimism and easy optimism. By the sin of Adam, our nature has become essentially evil and ever remains evil. It is a mass of corruption, and even the redeeming blood of Jesus does not cleanse it or heal it. Luther went so far as to say that all our actions are evil, even those which we look upon as virtuous . This is the pessism of his system.

Now comes the easy optimism. Luther taught that we must have complete confidence that the merits of Jesus Christ are actually applied to us: our sins are ignored by God. Our souls remain completely hideous in themselves, but God ‘covers’ them over with the merits of Christ so that these are looked upon by Him as being ours. Our sins are not ‘imputed’ to us, but the merits of Christ are.

This is the famous Justification by Faith. For the Lutheran, Justification doesn’t mean an inner change by which our soul becomes a sacred thing, but a mere external non-imputation of sins. Faith for him does not mean an assent to truths divinely revealed, but a personal persuasion that the merits of Christ have been applied to us. This faith, in the Lutheran sense, is the only thing that counts: good works are of no avail – indeed they are impossible, since all our actions are made evil from the evil source from which they spring.

A further conclusion of Lutheranism is that there can be no such thing as Merit.

peace

 

[guanophore]

I have never denied that WE MUST BE FOUND RIGHTEOUS in both our thoughts and our deeds in order to be saved. You believe in earning your salvation through attaining a righteousness of your own, while I am trusting in a righteous that is from God, and is by faith in Jesus.

Can we separate what you think Catholicism teaches, and what other individual posters may believe (which may not be Catholic), and actual Catholic teaching?

Maybe you are addressing an individual here when you say “you believe”, but I personally find it annoying.

Along these lines, I would like to state that the Catholic Church does not teach that a person can “earn salvation” by any means. Furthermore, the Church teaches that righteousness can only come from God, applied through faith. When a Catholic embraces righteous living, one does so in faith, by grace.

Are you under a law that makes your salvation dependent upon your good works to demonstrate your faith, or are you under God’s free grace?

If this is directed to an individual here, then my answer is irrelevant. However, if you are asking what the Catholic Church teaches, then I can say that salvation is not dependent upon “good works”. Yes, good works are the fruit of being under God’s free grace. Also, if one has faith, then it will be evident in one’s works.

One leads to fear and is incompatible with faith; the other sets sinners free from fear and makes sinners extremely grateful to God for His wonderful mercy.

I agree with this. “Catholics” who live in fear don’t understand the teaching of the Church. There are a lot of poorly catechized Catholics.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, the RC teaching is that a “saved” person can lose salvation through mortal sin and that any “saved” person will go to hell if they have any unconfessed mortal sins. In addition, the RCC teaches that justification is not by faith alone–some good works are necessary for justification.

This statement represents a misunderstanding of Catholic soteriology. Your reasoning is starting from a flawed base. Catholics don’t believe that we are ‘saved’ until the last day. Therefore, it is erroneous to say that we “lose” salvation, because we don’t consider ourselves to have attained it yet.

Also, in Catholic soteriology, justification is not separated from sanctification as it is in Reformed Theology.

As a result, salvation is a cooperative process for RC’s, and only those who have demonstrated sufficient cooperation with God will be saved.

This is kind of a stilted way of explaining it, but yes, Catholics don’t believe that God will make anyone live with Him in eternity that does not want to share in HIs fellowship. In other words, he does not save people against their will. We understand that “made in the image and likeness of God” to mean that we have free will, and that God respects our choice to either walk in fellowship with Him, or not.

In the end, it is all based upon the goodness of certain individuals (a morally elite group) that, when they have died, has proven their worthiness for salvation by their own good works. None of this has anything to do with God’s goodness and mercy.

You are right, none of this has anything to do with salvation. I wonder where you come up with these crazy notions?! Who taught you all these falsehoods about Catholicism?

 

[guanophore]

It is apparent that you have a lot of confidence in your own righteousness

How do you figure that? How can a person be confident in something that does not exist?

Are you morally better than those who use their freedom NOT to grieve the Holy Spirit and turn away from Him? Why are you able to use your freedom so well?

By grace, through faith. Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

How can you know that you have “not let sin reign” in you enough for your salvation?

This is an ongoing process, as the HS is continually revealing areas that need sanctification. One can only place full trust in God, that he is able to complete that work which He has begun.

Are you a sinner, or are you just less sinful than most people?

Those who are in Christ are no longer sinners. They have been transferred out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light. They have become the sons and daughters of God by adoption. The old has passed away, and the new has come. The NT calls Christians “saints”, meaning holy ones, those separated. We are in the world, and not of it.

Are you trusting in your own goodness to fulfill your obligation or are you relying on the goodness and mercy of God?

After the legal declaration of righteousness, God then wants to create in is actual moral righteousness. We grow in grace and faith daily. It is the righteousness that comes from God, but of course we have to work at it. We have to “put off” the flesh, we have to “put on” the full armor of God. These are things that we do.

What is the basis of your ability to NOT live according to the flesh?

By grace we are saved through faith. We are no longer slaves to sin, as we have been washed by the water of regeneration. Sin no longer has dominion over us.

If you DO abide in Him, would it be because of your own goodness? Why do some people fail to abide in Him?

Would you not agree that a person cannot abide in Him without grace through faith? He is the vine, we are the branches. Without Him, we can bear no fruit at all!

Those who fail to abide are those that reject His grace, and choose to remain in sin, live in the flesh, or allow the devil to have dominion over them, even though they have been delivered. “As a dog returns to his vomit…”

What have you done to be united to Christ? Are you united to Christ because your free will was morally better than those who reject Him?

If anyone is united to Christ is is because He first reached out in love. He draws us to Himself. He is the cause of the unification, not ourselves. Would you not agree that it is a morally better choice to accept Christ than to reject Him?

Free will is not “morally better” or morally worse in and of itself. It is a faculty of humans, just like our other physical and psychological functions. We can choose to put our faith in Christ, or not.

Do you ever sin?

A distinction must be made between living a lifestyle of sin, and falling from grace. A sinner lives in sin, and justifies it to himself. A Christian strives to live in the grace and purity of Christ, to be perfect, as He is perfect. If a Christian falls from grace, he will immediatly seek forgiveness and get back on the path to sainthood.

If so, how much “sowing to your flesh” is too much?

every little bit is too much. Even THINKING about it is too much!

Does this passage make you more confident of your own worthiness for salvation or less confident?

Not sure which passage this question was attached to …maybe I accidently deleted. but, I will say that we have no worthiness in ourselves, and that, if we all got what we deserved, we would all burn in the pit!

Are you confident of your ability to keep His works until the end?

He is able to complete the good work that He began. I can do all things through Christ Jesus, who strengths me.

How do you plan to be found righteous in thought and deed till the end?

He is able to keep me until that day.

Are you trusting in what you do, or in what Jesus has already done for your salvation?

Each person has a responsibility to respond to the work that Jesus did. His is finished, but ours is not.