Titus 3:4-6
Well, almost.
This doesn’t answer the question. So, I’ll ask it in a slightly different way. Why was YOUR free will not severely affected by the fall of humanity in the garden through Adam, but many other people’s free will was so badly corrupted by the fall that their free will is not as free as yours is, to love what is good, and accept the grace of God? If your free will is MORE FREE than certain other people’s, to chose what is good, WHY is your free will so much freer and better than that of certain other people?
Oh, you have a ‘free will meter’. How do you know that I have more or less free will than any one else".
ANSWER OUR QUESTION!
I am not the one who is claiming that my will was free…until God’s grace of regeneration made me born again of the Spirit. Before grace came to me I was only “free” to continue in my rebellion against God.
No, God didn’t force me to accept His grace. God revealed to me the depth of my own horrible depravity, and caused me to see myself as the detestable slave to sin that I was. Only after this, was I ready and willing to turn to Jesus for His wonderful mercy.
I have answered you, and I’m still amazed that you find within yourselves something better than other people (your own free will) that enables you to recognize and accept the good (God’s free grace), while many other people are less able than you to recognize and accept the good. Without admitting it, you are saying that YOUR free will is just naturally superior to that of certain other people. How is this any different than moral elitism?
Your “answer” to my question was that you have “free will” to accept or reject God’s grace. The main problem for your theology, is that you have made the mistake of assuming that nothing of any real consequence happened to Adam and Eve when they ate the fruit. You are mistaken. The fall of humanity involved a falleness of the will of mankind. Before the grace of regeneration comes, a person is still dead in sin and is “free” only to remain in sin and rebellion against God. Jesus said, “You must be born again.” And only one who has been born again by the Spirit will see himself as he really is–a vile and detestable sinner before God.
God has mercy on those whom He wishes. Because God is free to show mercy or to withold it from every human being, salvation is proven to be a free gift. It wouldn’t be a free gift if God had to treat everyone equally.
The atheists always say exactly this same thing. But God is the One who decides what is just and what is acceptable, and His ways are perfectly righteous. Who are you to find fault with Him?
I don’t think that is what Calvin believed.
What exactly is YOUR alternative to God’s selection? Who should get to do the selecting for salvation? Are you wiser than God?
I agree that all of us would be in rebellion against God if not for grace. But you were not saved only by God.
It does depend on God’s mercy, but that does not mean that man’s desire and effort are not involved. God offers his Spirit to all, but only those who accept the offer receive it.
God does this for everyone. But not everyone is “ready and willing to turn” as you were.
No difference, if this were true, but it is not. God is willing that all men be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. He extends His grace to all, each according to their measure of faith. In some, God’s grace is mixed with faith, in others, disbelief. All choose.
This is contrary to Scripture.
I second that!
How does it honor God for you to say this? Why do most RC’s end up with a god who only gives us the possibility of salvation? Why is RC salvation ultimately and finally dependent upon the goodness of men? Isn’t the God of Scripture bigger and better than that?
Only because of the mercy of God, who caused me to be willing to believe what I was unwilling to believe prior to regeneration.
Only because of the mercy of God, who caused me to be willing to believe what I was unwilling to believe prior to regeneration. Before grace came to me, I was unwilling to see myself as I am. Instead, I thought of myself as a good and virtuous person, since I had never committed murder, adultery, homosexuality, etc.
How did I come to know this? God showed me what my true nature really is.
Does getting on our knees save our soul?
Yes, But I begged JESUS for mercy. It was God Himself who revealed to me my desperate need for mercy, AND that for salvation, I need Jesus, and only Jesus. My actions didn’t have ANYTHING to do with the cause of my salvation. My actions were the result of the regeneration by the Spirit.
My response (getting on my knees begging for mercy) isn’t what saved me. My response was the effect, not the cause of my salvation.
Man’s desire and effort to please God are the results of grace that has already saved the sinner.
No. God is free to have mercy on those whom He chooses…if God were under the obligation to treat all men equally, then His mercy is not mercy any more than love would really be love if I’m obligated to love everyone in the same way and in the same degree.
I think you will find, if you really take the time to study Catholic Theology, that this is not the case.
On the contrary, it is you who are very much mistaken, about a great many things.
Please back this assertion up with some scripture.
I am not sure this is the case. What comes to mind is the Old Covenant, which Law was given to reveal sins. If it was not possible for man to see his fallenness under the Old Covenant, then what was the point?
I don’t see why not. How is it any less free, if God desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth?
Perhaps you are more influenced by Calvanism than you realized.
God calls all. Those who answer the call are elected. It is still all up to God. People can’t answer the call without grace.
This is faulty reasoning. yes, we are saved by grace, through faith. The grace and the faith are both from God. However, faith is a human faculty, just like our mind, emotions, will, etc. He has created us, and given it to us, but it is up to us to use it. It is the will of man that mixes his faith with God’s grace, allowing himself to be saved. Notice how many times in the Gospels Jesus says :“your faith has saved you”.
Because some people reject the purpose of God for themselves.
No, I just disagree with your premise. What happened in the garden did not eliminate from mankind the image of God in which he is made. It did not take out the desire that God placed in man to live in fellowship with Himself. In other words, Total Depravity is not what Jesus taught.
Because Catholicism is based upon Judiasm. Jesus was a Jew, and salvation is from the Jews. Our understanding of what Jesus taught is based upon Moses and the Prophets:
Salvation is not dependent upon the goodness of men. Rather, it is the goodness of God, who created us for Himself, and wants us to live in fellowship with Him. However, true to Himself, He has created us in His likeness and image. That means free will. That means that each and every one can choose if they wish to be in fellowship with Him, or not.
Perhaps we are having a semantics problem here. Catholicism teaches that man cannot come to God unless God draws Him. But God draws all men to be saved. Some (I would say most) refuse the call. Those that respond in faith then may be regenerated. Otherwise, how can you explain what happened at the first Sermon of Peter?
You are right that no one can come to God without grace, and that we cannot see our need for a saviour without grace. However, not all who are graced receive Him, and become regenerated (born again). Grace draws them, they hear the word, but then turn away. Like the seeds that were sown on rocky ground.
Depends on what you do when you are there!
I think not. I think your action was a response to grace, but many are cut to the quick of their wrongdoing, and don’t turn to God in faith. Look at Judas! He saw himself, and despaired. Rather than putting his faith in God (Like Peter did) and repent, he rejected the grace of God.
Well, since a person does not get saved without repentance, you can’t rightly say that begging for mercy has no part. Coming to faith in Christ is not, in itself, salvific. What matters is remaining in a state of grace. Remember the lepers that were cleansed? Did they come back and thank Jesus for their healing?
I think this misunderstanding is based upon an erroneous soteriology. This Calvanistic rendering makes salvation an event, rather than a state. In contrast, Jesus taught that salvation is being in a state of grace. It is not a single event that occurs once in time for all eternity. It is more like a river that one can get out of if one so chooses.
You can’t get away with that? We Catholics are dependent on God for our salvation; we are not dependent not ourselves. Are you here to mock Catholicism? You have 2000 years to judge Catholicism. We have the saints to prove it our holiness, and our special mission in the world from God… You on the other hand are struggling with the meaning of your religion, man-made religion I may add.
Nick, why can’t you reconcile the truth that God’s sovereignty includes human free will? While it is a mystery how God’s sovereignty and our free will interact, the truth is that they do, as the Scriptures teach.
So this means that faith alone Arminians (Methodists, Penetecostals, Nazarenes, Free-will Baptists, etc.) - even the OSAS variety - also teach a human righteousness gospel since they believe in free will? Since Martin Luther believed salvation could be lost through unbelief, he must have also taught a human righteousness gospel as well.And the Scriptures tell us both that 1) Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and 2) that God wants all people to be saved. It is not obligation, but the freest love which prompts His mercy towards us.