Catholics are not saved by Works

[mikeledes]

Only because of the mercy of God, who caused me to be willing to believe what I was unwilling to believe prior to regeneration.
Yes, But I begged JESUS for mercy. It was God Himself who revealed to me my desperate need for mercy, AND that for salvation, I need Jesus, and only Jesus. My actions didn’t have ANYTHING to do with the cause of my salvation. My actions were the result of the regeneration by the Spirit.

This was a bone of contention between John Calvin and Martin Luther. Can you please point to Scripture where it says being “born again” by the Spirit - as understood by Calvinists -occurs prior to repentance and faith?

No. God is free to have mercy on those whom He chooses…if God were under the obligation to treat all men equally, then His mercy is not mercy any more than love would really be love if I’m obligated to love everyone in the same way and in the same degree

You’re right. God is under no obligation outside of His sovereign will to treat all mean equally.

1) It is Catholic dogma that there is an unequal distribution of efficacious grace. If this were not so, then hell would be absolutely empty.

2 It is Catholic dogma that it is impossible to merit the gift of final perseverance (i.e. perseverance to the end, dying in a state of grace). Only those predestined to glory will receive this gift.

3 Predestination to glory is also Catholic Dogma and that the number of those predestined to glory is immutable. We also believe that good works is not cause of predestination to glory.

The Catholic Church upholds the following three teachings regarding predestination:

(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits.

Anyone who enters eternal glory ( i.e. the person who accepts God’s grace and persevere in righteousness) is there because God has ensured that they will freely accept His grace, believe, and persevere in righteousness. All of this occurs under the influence of His grace. Anyone who goes to Hell is because God has allowed that person to go their own way and has not granted them the gift of final persverance.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Now, Nick, I said earlier that God is under no obligation outside of His sovereign will to save anyone. Absolutely no one can obligate God. Only God can obligate Himself. For example, if He has *freely *decreed that John Doe will be glorified, He cannot change His mind and say “You know what, I’m not going to glorify John Doe after all.”

The same thing can be said about rewards. I’m sure you believe that God gives His elect rewards in heaven. God is not *obligated * to reward anyone. In fact, if it weren’t for His grace, we wouldn’t be getting any rewards. However, God has promised to reward and by doing so, He has obligated Himself:

Proverbs 19:17

17One who is gracious to a poor man lends to the LORD,
And He will repay him for his good deed.

Lending to the Lord means that the Lord has now become a debtor and thus has a debt to repay? But in what sense has He become a “debtor.” It’s definitely not in the sense that someone or something outside of His sovereign will has obligated Him to repay. Rather, He is a “debtor” in the sense that by promising a reward for good deeds, He has obligated himself to fulfill His promise. Only God can obligate God.

Proverbs 11:18

18The wicked earns deceptive wages,
But he who sows righteousness gets a true reward.

So if a child of God sows righteousness, God now has a debt to pay because He must fulfill His promise, a promise that was a free act of His sovereign will.

To be continued…

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

So this means that faith alone Arminians (Methodists, Penetecostals, Nazarenes, Free-will Baptists, etc.) - even the OSAS variety - also teach a human righteousness gospel since they believe in free will? Since Martin Luther believed salvation could be lost through unbelief, he must have also taught a human righteousness gospel as well.

Yes, to the extent that anyone attributes their salvation to the goodness of their own free will, such people are ultimately finding within themselves the cause of their salvation.

You are obvioulsy a believer in TULIP. Let me ask you the following question. As a child of God, you believe that your will has been regenerated and you are being led by the Spirit?

Yes. God has caused me to be willing to trust in His goodness and mercy and not anything else for my salvation.

Do you sin or is your life morally perfect? I’m assuming that your answer will be “yes”, even if you believe that sin will not affect your salvation. My next question is: why do you sin despite the fact that you have been regenerated and are being led by the Spirit?

I’m a sinner. I sin because in my flesh I’m still sinful and still weak. Instead of doing the good that I want to do, I find myself giving in to the desires of the flesh and doing what I am trying not to do.

 

[mgrfin]

I’m a sinner. I sin because in my flesh I’m still sinful and still weak. Instead of doing the good that I want to do, I find myself giving in to the desires of the flesh and doing what I am trying not to do.

All the old Luther bugaboos: no free will, rotten and debauched nature, and all that trust, wallowing in all that lust.

I don’t how God can save you, or why he would even bother. You are not responsible for your own sins, so he can’t punish you. You don’t have anything to be saved from, since you are not responsible for your vast array of sins.

If I met you, would I want to be talking to you? You paint yourself as so despicable, I would hide my children from you. You seem to be drooling with lust, and no way to control it.

If you get caught commiting your misdeeds, you would blame it on the devil, or that you have no control. You need to be treated with drugs, or surgically altered.

Yet, if you were on the jury that convicted Charles Manson, you would be the first to say you would pull the switch.

I hope you can work out your problems.

peace

 

[mikeledes]

Yes, to the extent that anyone attributes their salvation to the goodness of their own free will, such people are ultimately finding within themselves the cause of their salvation.

I’ve discussed this same subject with OSAS Faith alone Arminians and they will disagree with your analysis.

Yes. God has caused me to be willing to trust in His goodness and mercy and not anything else for my salvation.

Catholics would agree with this. We chose God because God chose us first. We love God because God loved us first. Man cannot chose God if God does not takes the initiative to influnece man’s will. However, we believe God causes us to be willing without violating our free will. In other words, God accomplishes His plan of salvation without necessarily destroying free will, the ability to choose or reject Him. Let’s look at an example. Do you believe that the Fall of Man was decreed by God from all eternity? Most Calvinists do believe this. And yet they will not say that God caused Adam to sin in order to fulfill this decree. They will argue that Adam was completely responsible for his sin, that he freely chose to sin. So in this case, a Calvinist will argue that God’s decree regarding the Fall was executed without God necessarily destroying Adam’s free will or directly causing Him to sin. As Catholics, we believe that God can accomplish the salvation of the predestined without destroying their free will or without making free will merely illusory. The will acts under the influence of grace without necessarily losing it’s freedom. The human will can only chose God under the influence of His “drawing” grace. So why is that God’s offer of salvation is ultimately efficicacious in the case of one person and not the other? Because one was predestined to glory and the other was not.

I’m a sinner. I sin because in my flesh I’m still sinful and still weak. Instead of doing the good that I want to do, I find myself giving in to the desires of the flesh and doing what I am trying not to do

But, according to Calvinism, a sure sign of being of the elect is that you have a greater desire to do the will of God. According to Scripture, our good works are the outward manifestation of God working within us:

Phillipians 2:13

**13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure. **

Galatians 5:

**22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. **

If the Spirit leads us and thus God is causing us to do good, why aren’t we able to overcome our sinful nature if Jesus has crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and we are no longer under the dominion of sin?

Romans 6:14

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

1 Corinthians 10:13

**13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. **

If the good that we do is the will of God being executed, is the sin that we do after being born again also the will of God being executed? If we have been delivered from slavery to sin, is our will still in bondage to sin?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

And the Scriptures tell us both that 1) Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and 2) that God wants all people to be saved. It is not obligation, but the freest love which prompts His mercy towards us.

Scripture says: “he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2 Pet 3:9). Also, God “wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim 2:4).

If salvation occurs without the cooperation of man, then people who are damned are not in fact offered salvation. Why?

It is not a contradiction to say that God wants all people to be saved, and also that God chooses whom He will save. Lots of people have no problem believing that God loves all of us AND that God creates certain people with severe disabilities including blindness, mental retardation, dwarfism, etc. You can take the view that God never intended to create people with severe disabilities, but then you end up with a god who is not sovereign.

If they were offered the grace of salvation, in your context, it is impossible that they could have the free will to accept or deny it. It would seem that everyone who is offered salvific grace is saved. , because grace causes the assent of the will. But this means that people who weren’t saved were not offered this grace, because if they were offered this grace, they would have automatically have been regenerated with it, apart from their own will.

True, if regeneration is essential to make room for faith, then regeneration happens to the elect apart from their own will. And if God had seen fit to create me with no possibility to ever have hearing and sight, then I would be destined to live my whole life as a blind deafmute, having had no free will in the matter.

This is where the problem comes in-- Jesus died for the sins of the world, and God wants everyone to be saved. But as long as we hold jointly to irresistible grace of this variety and the complete bondage of the will, we cannot at the same time hold that God wants everyone to be saved, because if God offered everyone the chance to be saved then they would infallibly be saved. But there are those who are not saved, therefore, God does not offer everyone the grace to be saved.

It doesn’t seem like a problem unless you prefer your god to be less than completely sovereign over His creation. God is loving and He has shown loving compassion in healing the blind and the ill. Yet God has chosen NOT to heal every person’s ailments.

But this leads to an unacceptable contradiction. We cannot both say that God wants everyone to be saved, and yet doesn’t give them the means by which to do it.

Do you ever want things but choose not to take any sort of action to obtain what you want? I do. I want more money than I have, better cardiovascular health, and more education than I have. There will always be some things that I desire, yet choose not to bring about.

Therefore, we must either reject Scripture or the principles which structure your theology. We cannot reject Scripture. Therefore, etc.
-Rob

There is no reason to reject Scripture merely because God’s ways are not like our ways.

 

[mikeledes]

It is not a contradiction to say that God wants all people to be saved, and also that God chooses whom He will save. Lots of people have no problem believing that God loves all of us AND that God creates certain people with severe disabilities including blindness, mental retardation, dwarfism, etc. You can take the view that God never intended to create people with severe disabilities, but then you end up with a god who is not sovereign.

Everything happens for a reason. The fact that one person is born with disabilities and another person is not does not mean that God loves one person less than the other. Those disabilities were somehow meant to accomplish God’s good purpose.

The problem is that if we say that God desires Joe M. Smith to be saved and never provides a genuine opportunity for that person to be saved, than how can that desire for salvation be genuine? How can God say…

Acts 17:30

30"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

Ezekiel 18:23

**23"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? **

… and yet never provide a genuine opportunity for that person to repent and still be sincere? Remeber, man can only repent if God takes the initiative. That’s like me telling a sick person “I desire that you be healed,” but I withhold the treatment or cure from that person and thus never giving him or her an opportunity to accept or reject it.

As Catholics, we believe that although God’s grace is ultimately efficicacious (i.e. glorification) only in the elect, God offers sufficient grace - also known a s prevenient or antecedent grace - to both the elect and non-elect, thus enlightening their minds and wills and enabling them to choose or reject Him. The Bible clearly states:

John 1:9

**9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. **

John 12:32

**32"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." **

In the case of the non-elect, God will ultimately allow them to freely reject His grace or, if they accept it, allow them to freely fall away. In the case of the elect, God will ensure that this prevenient grace will be efficacious in producing the desired result - a faith that perseveres in working through love - and He will accomplish this without destroying free will.

To be continued…

 

[mikeledes]

True, if regeneration is essential to make room for faith, then regeneration happens to the elect apart from their own will. And if God had seen fit to create me with no possibility to ever have hearing and sight, then I would be destined to live my whole life as a blind deafmute, having had no free will in the matter.

Okay, many Protestants believe - and Martin Luther believed - that regeneration or being born again occurs after one has believed or accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Can you please point out a Scripture that clearly states that regeneration occurs prior to repentance and faith?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Do you ever want things but choose not to take any sort of action to obtain what you want? I do. I want more money than I have, better cardiovascular health, and more education than I have. There will always be some things that I desire, yet choose not to bring about.

Why do you chose not to bring about these things that you want? If you don’t chose to bring it about, it’s because you didn’t really want it.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Odell]

It is not a contradiction to say that God wants all people to be saved, and also that God chooses whom He will save. Lots of people have no problem believing that God loves all of us AND that God creates certain people with severe disabilities including blindness, mental retardation, dwarfism, etc. You can take the view that God never intended to create people with severe disabilities, but then you end up with a god who is not sovereign.

God chooses whom he will save but he choose those whom choose him. For he will not force anyone to accept him just as he did not force you to accept him.

Remimber God desires all to be saved that is why he gives us all the Grace to accept him. But it is up to YOU to accept that Grace or not, in works or in faith

**This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:3-4 **

**The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness,
but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish
but for all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9 **

It doesn’t seem like a problem unless you prefer your god to be less than completely sovereign over His creation. God is loving and He has shown loving compassion in healing the blind and the ill. Yet God has chosen NOT to heal every person’s ailments.

So Christ has no Love and compassion over the blind and the ill?

This anology would seem that God does not Love those whom he sends to hell. But it is an act of Love that God sends people to hell.

Do you ever want things but choose not to take any sort of action to obtain what you want? I do. I want more money than I have, better cardiovascular health, and more education than I have. There will always be some things that I desire, yet choose not to bring about.

Do you think that was a good response to this

But this leads to an unacceptable contradiction. We cannot both say that **God wants everyone to be saved, and yet doesn’t give them the means by which to do **it.

So God wants all people to be saved but he is just too lazey to saved us all.

There is no reason to reject Scripture merely because God’s ways are not like our ways.

There is no reason to reject what Christ has called you to be as a Christian. If you read scripture in context you would realize that if you reject to do good and walk by the blind and ill you will go to hell. If you comit adulry murder fornicate lie stell you will go to Hell. You must do as the good sameritan and lend out a helping hand WWJD the bible is full of the good you can do in Christ.

I pray that you will see this.

 

[guanophore]

Nick, why can’t you reconcile the truth that God’s sovereignty includes human free will? While it is a mystery how God’s sovereignty and our free will interact, the truth is that they do, as the Scriptures teach.

What you are saying makes God a liar. God pleaded with Israel, over and over, to turn away from their sins and repent. But if these people were only “free” to continue in their rebellion against God (because Christ had not come yet), then that would make God’s pleading pointless. He would be revealing His desire for Israel to repent, knowing all the while that they did not have the ability to do so. This is not the God of the Christian faith.

Ezek. 18:30-31 Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you. Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?

Ezek. 33:11 Answer them: As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man’s conversion, that he may live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, O house of Israel?

Please listen to God’s word my friend,

Ryan

I don’t think he is saying that man does not have free will, only that it is incapable of choosing God. I think this notion is based on the false presumption of total depravity. I can see where he is lost, though, as

Col 2:13
And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh,

He also seems confused about regeneration, thinking that it is caused before baptism, and before saving faith.

I think he has been taught that

Rom 8:6-8
7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, indeed it cannot; 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

means that the will is unable to turn to God without regeneration.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, to the extent that anyone attributes their salvation to the goodness of their own free will, such people are ultimately finding within themselves the cause of their salvation.

This is simply a misunderstanding of free will. Will, in and of itself, does not have moral value. It is a human faculty that can be used or applied toward moral or immoral means. It is just like a hand, or an eye, which are not good or evil in themselves, but can be used in either way.

Yes. God has caused me to be willing to trust in His goodness and mercy and not anything else for my salvation.

Why does He not do that for all of humanity?

I’m a sinner. I sin because in my flesh I’m still sinful and still weak. Instead of doing the good that I want to do, I find myself giving in to the desires of the flesh and doing what I am trying not to do.

Then, how can you say you have been regenerated? Why do you give your will to the unholy thing?

 

[Nick_Jones]

This is simply a misunderstanding of free will. Will, in and of itself, does not have moral value. It is a human faculty that can be used or applied toward moral or immoral means. It is just like a hand, or an eye, which are not good or evil in themselves, but can be used in either way.

This would be true if human nature was not affected by the fall. But in Adam we are all born into sin, and as Scripture says,

Rom. 3:10-12
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Why does He not do that for all of humanity?

Because God wills to save some, and not all of us.

Then, how can you say you have been regenerated? Why do you give your will to the unholy thing?

It is clear that I have been regenerated because I really do want to please God in all that I do. Before my conversion I was perfectly content to sin against God night and day. My sins didn’t bother me in the least. I viewed myself as a good person.

 

[guanophore]

It is not a contradiction to say that God wants all people to be saved, and also that God chooses whom He will save.

Yes, it is.

Lots of people have no problem believing that God loves all of us AND that God creates certain people with severe disabilities including blindness, mental retardation, dwarfism, etc. You can take the view that God never intended to create people with severe disabilities, but then you end up with a god who is not sovereign.

This is an irrelevant example. It is also based on an erroneous premise, that being that a loving God would not tolerate disability, which is not true.

True, if regeneration is essential to make room for faith, then regeneration happens to the elect apart from their own will.

Regeneration is not essential to make room for faith. Faith can be placed in a number of places, totally apart from God and His will for our lives.

And if God had seen fit to create me with no possibility to ever have hearing and sight, then I would be destined to live my whole life as a blind deafmute, having had no free will in the matter.

The fact that human beings are not omnipotent in no way negates the fact that they have free will. You have the free will to decide if you will accept and potentiate yourself in spite of your disabilities, nor feel sorry for yourself. Ever read Helen Keller?

It doesn’t seem like a problem unless you prefer your god to be less than completely sovereign over His creation. God is loving and He has shown loving compassion in healing the blind and the ill. Yet God has chosen NOT to heal every person’s ailments.

This is a small view of healing. God is much more concerned with the healing of our souls and spirites. If he knows we need a cross to bear to get to resurrection, then He is healing.

Do you ever want things but choose not to take any sort of action to obtain what you want? I do. I want more money than I have, better cardiovascular health, and more education than I have. There will always be some things that I desire, yet choose not to bring about.

This is a good example. Do you think this means that your free will is “evil” instead of “good”? In like manner, humans can know that walking with God is right and yet choose not to do so.

There is no reason to reject Scripture merely because God’s ways are not like our ways.

But your formulation of soteriology REQUIRES that you throw out certain scriptures.

 

[Nick_Jones]

This is simply a misunderstanding of free will. Will, in and of itself, does not have moral value. It is a human faculty that can be used or applied toward moral or immoral means. It is just like a hand, or an eye, which are not good or evil in themselves, but can be used in either way.

And what would you say about those who wanted Barrabas freed so they could crucify Jesus? Did they have a will that of itself, does not have moral value? Were these men’s wills morally neutral?

If anyone ever needed proof that something truly horrible happened to human nature in the fall of mankind, it ought to be proof enough that people were so depraved as to want a murderer freed so that the only perfectly innocent man ever to walk the earth could be beaten, humiliated, tortured, and killed.

 

[Nick_Jones]

But your formulation of soteriology REQUIRES that you throw out certain scriptures.

I have not thrown out any Scriptures.

 

[mgrfin]

Because God wills to save some, and not all of us.

This statement alone is offensive to almighty God. It is typical of John Calvin.

God wills to save all of mankind, and gives to each of us sufficient grace to do so.

The all-loving, mericiful God apparently is not part of the Protestant scenario.

“This is the will of the Father who sent me that of all that he hath gtiven me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up in the last day”. John 6: 39

“We know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints”.

1 Cor x, 13 “God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able; but will malke also with temptations issue that you may be able to bear it”

“I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.” Ezech xxxiii 11

peace

peace

 

[mgrfin]

Because God wills to save some, and not all of us…

Christ tells us explicitly that he came ‘not to call the just, but sinners to penance”, Luke v, 32, and the story of his life is the history of a good Shepherd whose principal care is for the lost sheep; of a mericiful, forgiving Father whose arms are open to welcome back the prodigal.

St. Paul says “I desire first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: for kings, and for all that are in high stations: that we mayh lead a quiet and peaceful life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: who gave himself for the redemption for all” 1 Tim 2, 1-6

peace

 

[Nick_Jones]

Okay, many Protestants believe - and Martin Luther believed - that regeneration or being born again occurs after one has believed or accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Can you please point out a Scripture that clearly states that regeneration occurs prior to repentance and faith?

God Bless,
Michael

Saving faith means trusting in the goodness and mercy of God for salvation and in nothing else. The reason why regeneration is necessary is because mankind is fallen into rebellion (sin) against God. If our nature had not been corrupted in the fall, we would all still seek what is good (God) and run away from evil. But in our fallen condition, mankind seeks evil and runs away from God. None of us begins our life wanting what is good. We need to be born of the Spirit–we need God’s intervention to show us our lost and desperate condition.

John 3:1-21
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

 

[Nick_Jones]

This statement alone is offensive to almighty God. It is typical of John Calvin.

God wills to save all of mankind, and gives to each of us sufficient grace to do so.

The all-loving, mericiful God apparently is not part of the Protestant scenario.

Rom. 9:1-29
I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ "
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”

It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”