Catholics are not saved by Works

[mgrfin]

Nick_Jones:
The Lutheran doctrine of Justification is not something Martin Luther discovered in the New Testament. Faced by his failure to control his violent and sensuous character, Luther evolved a his false theory.

It was not something that Catholicism taught him; it was his release for the stresses of what he saw as his sinful nature. Even the blood of Jesus Christ, our Saviour, did not cleanse or heal it; and he concluded that all our actions were evil, including even those we look upon as virtuous.

It took sixteen hundred years for this theory to come to light, the pessimism of Lutheran Justification, Justification by Faith only.
Listening to you, we know you have gotten Luther’s rotten theories to this day, that man is essentially evil, and all that he does is of no avail.

Catholicism lays down what is Christianity: We become just not by a non-imputation of sin, but by an interior renovation which blots out sin. This is effected by sanctifying grace, which is explained as a reality poured forth upon us and inhering in us.

This is the teaching, beyond doubt, of Scripture, and of the great leaders of Christian thought. Scriptures show most clearly that the state of grace involves a real interior change in the soul. St. Paul speaks of the ‘new man’ who is 'created in justice and in holiness of truth" Eph iv: 24.

You are not telling us any new theology, Jones, you are rehashing the same old negative religion of Martin Luther. Even Lutherans today have a problem with such negativity, and a lack of regard worth for sanctification through grace.

Maybe you ought to get off your pulpit, and stop the ego bashing and effacement that your religion requires, which you believe on Sunday, but not on Monday. All this grovelling is seen for what it is.

peace

 

[RobNY]

It is not a contradiction to say that God wants all people to be saved, and also that God chooses whom He will save. Lots of people have no problem believing that God loves all of us AND that God creates certain people with severe disabilities including blindness, mental retardation, dwarfism, etc. You can take the view that God never intended to create people with severe disabilities, but then you end up with a god who is not sovereign.

I’m asserting the contradiction is between:

1. God wants all people to be saved.

and

1. God does not give everyone sufficient grace to be saved.

Because we know that

1. No one can be saved except through grace.

Which means that:

1. If God doesn’t give you sufficient grace to be saved, you cannot be saved.

But it’s not apparent how we can say that God “wants everyone to be saved” if He isn’t giving them the grace to be saved. It seems to have no meaning to say, “God wants everyone to be saved” if we don’t also say that he gives everyone the means to be saved. What do you think, “God wants everyone to be saved” means? In my book, the only way to interpret that is that God does His part to save us.

True, if regeneration is essential to make room for faith, then regeneration happens to the elect apart from their own will. And if God had seen fit to create me with no possibility to ever have hearing and sight, then I would be destined to live my whole life as a blind deafmute, having had no free will in the matter.

Likewise, if God created you without offering you any grace, you would be infallibly destined to hell. What you are saying is both that God wants everyone to be saved, and that there is a group of people whom He never gives any grace. Hence, you are saying both that God wants everyone to be saved, and at the same time, doesn’t want to give a distinct group (the reprobrate) grace. But if that’s the case, then He simply doesn’t want them to be saved.

It doesn’t seem like a problem unless you prefer your god to be less than completely sovereign over His creation. God is loving and He has shown loving compassion in healing the blind and the ill. Yet God has chosen NOT to heal every person’s ailments.

He is completely sovereign. He is the one who chose to die for the sins of the world, and He is the one who wants everyone to be saved. It’s not my decision that He created me, or my decision that He wants to save me. But He does. It is no strike against sovereignty that He decided to bind Himself in a certain way-- just as He has decided to make Himself man, and decided to bind Himself eternally to a covenant with unworthy sinners. Neither of these limit Him, no more does any of His other revelation.

Do you ever want things but choose not to take any sort of action to obtain what you want? I do. I want more money than I have, better cardiovascular health, and more education than I have. There will always be some things that I desire, yet choose not to bring about.

But when I desire things in that way, it is a weakness of mine. You have criticized me for damaging God’s sovereignty. Your theology destroys his omnipotence and goodness.

There is no reason to reject Scripture merely because God’s ways are not like our ways.

I would never reject Scripture, but I do reject contradictory interpretations of it, because God is not the author of contradiction.

-Rob

 

[mikeledes]

Saving faith means trusting in the goodness and mercy of God for salvation and in nothing else. The reason why regeneration is necessary is because mankind is fallen into rebellion (sin) against God. If our nature had not been corrupted in the fall, we would all still seek what is good (God) and run away from evil. But in our fallen condition, mankind seeks evil and runs away from God. None of us begins our life wanting what is good. We need to be born of the Spirit–we need God’s intervention to show us our lost and desperate condition.

John 3:1-21
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

In reply Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!”

Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God.”

The problem is God’s intervention does not necessarily mean being “born again” or regeneration. There is not one single verse in the Bible that indicates that regeneration must precede a person’s choice for God. You’re right! In our natural state, because of Adam’s sin, man is unable to chose God. However, even in our fallen state, man is able to know God - though this does not mean they chose God - and know what is right and wrong:

Romans 1:14-15

14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

The Bible does not describe God’s intervention prior to a person coming to faith as regeneration or being “born again.” Rather, the Bible describes it as a “call” or a “drawing.” To “draw” means to pull or attract. This drawing is what Catholics often refer to as antecedent or prevenient grace. The immediate end of this drawing is regeneration. Yes, one must be “born again” to enter the kingdom of God, but this does not necessarily mean that one must be born again prior to repentance and faith. Jesus also states in Matthew 7:21

21"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
You obviously would not argue that doing the will of God must be prior to having faith in order to enter the kingdom of God.

To be continued…

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Nick, I also have a question regarding chronology. When are we saved? The moment we are regenerated or the moment we come to faith after regeneration? Also, when are our sins washed? Is it at regeneration?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

It is clear that I have been regenerated because I really do want to please God in all that I do. Before my conversion I was perfectly content to sin against God night and day. My sins didn’t bother me in the least. I viewed myself as a good person.

That’s interesting. I can probably find Arminians (including the OSAS variety) and even Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons who would probably make the same observation of their life before and after conversion. This is a very subjective standard in order to determine whether one is truly regenerated.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

And what would you say about those who wanted Barrabas freed so they could crucify Jesus? Did they have a will that of itself, does not have moral value? Were these men’s wills morally neutral?

Certainly! They chose to use their will in service to an immoral purpose.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you men of double mind. "James 4:6-8

The individual has choice. One can submit to God, or the devil. One can resist evil, or choose to be in league with it. God calls, but we must choose to draw near, we must choose to wash our hands, and clean up our hearts. Just for the record, we don’t imagine that anyone can submit to God or draw near without grace, but these actions are those that cooperate with grace. Can ew clean our own hearts? Certainly not. But we can come to God and allow Him to clean them. He does not clean them otherwise.

If anyone ever needed proof that something truly horrible happened to human nature in the fall of mankind, it ought to be proof enough that people were so depraved as to want a murderer freed so that the only perfectly innocent man ever to walk the earth could be beaten, humiliated, tortured, and killed.

Catholics don’t deny that something horrible happened to human nature during the fall. Humans have been wounded, and without grace, cannot escape concupiscense. However, the will is free to choose, and the faith is neutral, and can be placed in an object that is either good, or evil. Without grace, we cannot choose the good.

 

[guanophore]

I have not thrown out any Scriptures.

Catholics believe that salvation is about being in a state of grace, rather than a certain event that takes place in time. Yes, there are events that take place. When we come to repentance, when we are baptized, and transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light.

We are being saved, as the HS creates us anew each day into the image and likeness of God, for we know that when we see Him, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He really is.

We will be saved, in the sense that the culmination of our salvation does not occur until after the judgement on the last day, where everyone will be judged according to their deeds.

Those that do not persist until the end will not inherit eternal life.

Rev 3:4-6
5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

How can Jesus promise that He will not blot names out of the Book of Life if it is not possible. Do you think this is some sort of empty peice of poetry He made up?

 

[guanophore]

Saving faith means trusting in the goodness and mercy of God for salvation and in nothing else. The reason why regeneration is necessary is because mankind is fallen into rebellion (sin) against God. If our nature had not been corrupted in the fall, we would all still seek what is good (God) and run away from evil. But in our fallen condition, mankind seeks evil and runs away from God. None of us begins our life wanting what is good. We need to be born of the Spirit–we need God’s intervention to show us our lost and desperate condition.

This is a Calvanistic formulation of depravity. Maybe you don’t realize that you have been indoctrinated in this non-Apostolic theology,but that is where it comes from.

It is not true that man does not desire what is good. Although our nature was wounded {corrupted), mankind still desires the good. We just are incapable of getting to it without grace. As Augustine writes “our hearts are restless until they rest in thee”. Or, if you prefer biblical reference

Acts 17:26-28
26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28 for

‘In him we live and move and have our being’;

as even some of your poets have said,

‘For we are indeed his offspring.’ "

Paul is writing this to Pagans, and he is affirming that all people seek God, and feel after Him to find Him. Even the Pagan lives and moves and has his being in God, and is the offspring of God. Paul is quoting Pagan poets here. Are the men of Athens to whom he is preaching in the Aeropagus Christians, or even Jews (monotheiests)? Certainly not! Paul is reacting to their pantheon. Yet he affrims that they are made in the image and likeness of God, and appeals to the heart of man that desires and seeks for the good, even while that heart is in darkeness.

Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Catholics affirm that no one can see the Kingdom unless they are born again of water, and spirit.

 

[guanophore]

Rom. 9:1-29

I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and **cut off from Christ **for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Here is an example of those scriptures you have to throw out to make Calvanism work. Paul knows that it is possible to be cut off, and he writes about this elsewhere. He also knows that being cut off will not save his brethren, who must each make their own choice.

It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” In other words, it is not the natural children who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”

Are you saying that the children of the promise are the predestined ones?

Not only that, but Rebekah’s children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.

Mankind can do nothing to merit salvation, all we can do is respond to the One who calls. Those who respond become the elect.

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Apparently you think that these passages somehow contradict the Catholic understanding of salvation, but they do not. In fact, it is clear that those who choose to answer God’s call will receive His mercy, and those who spurn His call do so out of a hardness of heart that continually gets harder.

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make hs power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? "

I know it is a mind bender. It is hard for me to imagine what it is like to be outside of time, or to be in the past, present, and future all at the same time. The fact that God can do this does not negate our free will. Although He knows in advance what we will choose, He still allows us to choose.

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

Faith is not trust. Faith is a virtue by which we firmly believe all the truths God has revealed, on the word of God revealing them, who can neither deceive or be deceived.

Man seeks the good, or what he perceives to be the good. Man does not seek the evil.

Man’s nature was wounded by the sin of our first parents. It was not totally destroyed. Our free will was left intact.

peace

 

[Nick_Jones]

Nick, I also have a question regarding chronology. When are we saved? The moment we are regenerated or the moment we come to faith after regeneration? Also, when are our sins washed? Is it at regeneration?

God Bless,
Michael

When are we saved? This is impossible to answer in a way that does justice to God’s transcendent nature. God is beyond time, and those He chose to save, He chose before the foundation of the world. The short answer is that a person is saved before the creation.

 

[Nick_Jones]

That’s interesting. I can probably find Arminians (including the OSAS variety) and even Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons who would probably make the same observation of their life before and after conversion. This is a very subjective standard in order to determine whether one is truly regenerated.

God Bless,
Michael

You are looking for proof of things that are spiritual. But what is spiritual must be accepted on the basis of faith since the spiritual realm doesn’t lend itself to rigorous examination or proofs by mortal human beings. It is enough for me to know that my conversion was like that of Saul, on the road to Damascus. It happened when I wasn’t expecting it, or looking for it. The change brought forth good fruit too.

 

[Nick_Jones]

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Apparently you think that these passages somehow contradict the Catholic understanding of salvation, but they do not. In fact, it is clear that those who choose to answer God’s call will receive His mercy, and those who spurn His call do so out of a hardness of heart that continually gets harder.

If salvation is ultimately a matter of God’s mercy, then it isn’t a matter of your own goodness in using your free will BETTER than other people. Read the passage above again, and then show me where it attributes God’s mercy to our own good free will choice.

 

[mgrfin]

QUOTE]

God offers salvation to all. We have to cooperate with that offer through grace.

Otherwise you are saying, that God forces us to accept Him, that we have no freedom of choice to reject God.

We can go to Hell if we wish. We pick it. We can cooperate with God’s grace, and heaven is possible.

Your protestant negativism is apparent.

Sorry for your despair.

peace

 

[mikeledes]

When are we saved? This is impossible to answer in a way that does justice to God’s transcendent nature. God is beyond time, and those He chose to save, He chose before the foundation of the world. The short answer is that a person is saved before the creation.

But when does the person experience salvation in time? When your are regenerated? When you are justified?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

You are looking for proof of things that are spiritual. But what is spiritual must be accepted on the basis of faith since the spiritual realm doesn’t lend itself to rigorous examination or proofs by mortal human beings. It is enough for me to know that my conversion was like that of Saul, on the road to Damascus. It happened when I wasn’t expecting it, or looking for it. The change brought forth good fruit too.

A OSAS Arminian has faith - the assurance of a believer - that they are saved. So do people who you would consider less than orthodox. They feel they have been changed by God. My point is that personal emotional/psychological experience alone is not sufficient to determine whether a person is saved or not. Your personal experience does not necessarily demonstrate that you are right just as a Arminian or Mormon experience does not demonstrate that they are right.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

If salvation is ultimately a matter of God’s mercy, then it isn’t a matter of your own goodness in using your free will BETTER than other people. Read the passage above again, and then show me where it attributes God’s mercy to our own good free will choice.

Catholics do believe in predestnation. However, God involves free will in accomplishing His plan of salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Here is a quote from a Catholic source:

**This is the difficulty that St. Paul expresses when he writes: “What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy.” St. Paul thus answers the difficulty by affirming the principle of predilection, or of the gratuity of grace to which we can have no claim. Further on he states: “O the depth of the riches of the wisdom and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are His judgments, and how unsearchable His ways!” St. Augustine expresses the mystery in these words: “Why He draweth one and not another, seek not to judge if thou dost not wish to err.”

St. Thomas called special attention to these two great difficulties in the mystery of predestination; one difficulty is general in scope, the other of particular interest. He says: “The reason for the predestination of some, and the reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. . . . God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, in sparing them; and in respect of others, whom He reprobates, by means of His justice in punishing them. . . . Yet why He chooses some for glory and reprobates others, has no reason except the divine will. . . . Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. . . . In things which are given gratuitously a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice.”

The answers given by St. Paul, St. Augustine and St. Thomas show there is no contradiction. But underlying these two aspects there is an inscrutable mystery because it is essentially supernatural and also because the divine intervention is supremely free. This mystery is supernatural not only modally like a miracle that can be known by natural means, but it is supernatural because by its very nature it belongs to that class of mysteries which concerns the intimate life of God, such as the Trinity, and it thus transcends the natural powers of every intellect whether human or angelic, of every created and creatable intellect. Moreover, in this mystery there is the intervention of God’s supremely free good pleasure, the divinum beneplacitum which St. Paul speaks of. This good pleasure, which is not at all a caprice - for it is the very essence of wisdom and holiness - is for us, as everything is which concerns God’s sovereign liberty, a profound mystery. By this good pleasure God mercifully grants His grace to one of the two thieves crucified with the Savior, whereas in justice He permits the other to resist to the very end, and so lets him remain in sin.**

This is from…

thesumma.info/predestination/predestination6.php

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mgrfin]

But when does the person experience salvation in time? When your are regenerated? When you are justified?

God Bless,
Michael

You need a little help with definitions.

Salvation is not in time, it is in eternity.

Justified and regenerated are the same things to the Roman Catholic. It is the new life that comes with sanctifying grace.

peace

 

[Newbie2]

Robert Sungenis-- although, in my opinion, to be avoided in all other spheres of writing-- is very good at Catholic-Protestant apologetics. He wrote a book called “Not by Faith Alone” which puts forth the apologetic which I’m putting forward here, namely, that of the distinction between works as obliging God in strict justice and works that please God in an adopted filial relationship. Truth be told, I haven’t even finished the book. It’s a monster of a book, and I’ve got lots of things to read. It’s so dense, but that’s why it’s so good. I recommend it.

-Rob

No doubt it’s a very complete book…but not at all easy or even moderately difficult reading. There’s a lot of dependance on the original languages (necessarily), which I found to be slow and cumbersome. I do a lot of theologial reading, and found myself giving up on the book; repeat, it is not an easy or light read.

That being said, if you want a heavy theological explanation, it may be the thing for you. Personally, although I am interested in the subject, I didn’t like the book.