Catholics are not saved by Works

[RobNY]

And if you use your free will to do good or to choose what is good, while John Doe uses his free will to reject God’s grace, you are saved ultimately by your own goodness, and John Doe is damned by his lack of goodness. How is this any different from moral elitism?

Our wills can only choose God if they are offered the grace to choose God. It isn’t elitism because it is a graced cooperation with God, not semi-Pelagian nonsense about being able to come to God without grace. God has said that he “will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness” (Rom 2:6-8). It wasn’t moral elitism when Paul taught it to the Romans, inspired by the Holy Spirit, and it isn’t elitism when the Catholic Church teaches it either.

-Rob

 

[ryanoneil]

And if you use your free will to do good or to choose what is good, while John Doe uses his free will to reject God’s grace, you are saved ultimately by your own goodness, and John Doe is damned by his lack of goodness. How is this any different from moral elitism?

GOD IS DOING THE SAVING, BUT WE MUST COOPERATE!

Is it moral elitism for the Bible to say we save our selves and each other? No, because God is doing the saving and we cooperate. (Don’t forget that we are part of Christ’s body Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 )

Rom. 11:13-14 * Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.*
Is Paul being a moral elitist when he says that he is the one doing the saving? No. what he really means is that he participates in Christ’s work of salvation. (Don’t forget that we are part of Christ’s body)

1 Cor. 7:16 *For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether **you will save *your wife?
Is Paul refering to moral elitism here, or is he talking about cooperating in Christ’s salvific work? (Don’t forget that we are part of Christ’s body)

1 Cor. 9:22 To the weak I became weak, to win over the weak. I have become all things to all,* to save at least some**.*
How about here? Only God saves, but we participate in their salvation. (Don’t forget that we are part of Christ’s body)

1 Tim. 4:16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.
Christ is the only Savior, but He wants us to participate. (Don’t forget that we are part of Christ’s body)

James 5:19-20 *My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back, he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way **will save his soul from death *and will cover a multitude of sins.
Does this say we are saviors in the Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ, because we are part of His body?

If you disagree with this interpretation, please explain your understanding of these verses.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Jerry-Jet]

I don’t believe in total predestination because I believe that the people who reject God’s sufficient grace that is offered to all go to Hell on their own accord.

If one believes in total or double predestination one would believe that God predestined some to Hell.

That is not true!

If anyone goes to Hell it is by their own actions.

I do believe that God predestines the Elect. That is not total predestination and it is in complete agreement with what Catholicism teaches.

The difference between Catholics and others is that Catholics know that only God knows who the elect are.

And just having that knowledge or Predestining the Elect does not violate free will in anyway.

Cooperating with God’s grace is a use of the will and it is a SOMETHING but it is not like voting FOR someone.

It is cooperation by as St. Thomas Aquinas says “NOT raising an impediment to God’s grace”.

Not raising an impediment is a Free Will choice but it is not a choice as would be say a Man-intitated work.

What is the difference?

Choosing to do a Man-initiated work is a choice that comes From Man.

Choosing Not to raise an impediment to God’s grace is not an impulse that comes From Man and it is not God-directed like a puppet and a string.

It is a POSITIVE NEUTRAL Act!

So yes man can cooperate by making that POSITIVE NEUTRAL ACT and God will get all the glory and it won’t be Total Predestination because God does not Predestine any to Hell–but it will still allow God to Predestine the Elect and yet man still have complete Freedom of the will!

There is a such a thing as Catholic Predestination–it’s in the Catholic Encyclopedia and has been mentioned in Ecumenical Councils of the Catholic Church!

Maybe some of my other Catholic brothers and sisters will come to my defense and back me up that Catholics do believe in a form of Predestination much different from Calvinism.

And believing in that form of Predestination is not tatamount to believe in justification by works.

And lastly the word Predestination is used in the bible!

Catholics don’t disbelieve it–they do disbelieve the Calvinists who have created an abominated form of it!

 

[mikeledes]

Without God’s work of regeneration, the “free” will of depraved sinners can only accomplish damnation for themselves. Jesus said, “you must be born again.” Salvation is accomplished by the good works of God, not the saved individual.

Where in the Bible is “regeneration” used this way? The Bible talks about “drawing.”

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

And who’s the non-Roman Catholic?

God Bless,
Michael

guanophore derives from a long line of Greeks, though continually more educated in the Latin Rite.

 

[guanophore]

Doesn’t the logic still stand? In Col 12:13 Paul was teaching about our condition prior to baptism. If man is incapable of choosing God before baptisms (total depravity), then why would God ask them to choose Him?

Yes, I agree. The non-Apostolic Teaching of total depravity is inconsistent with scripture and the Teaching of Jesus. God does not ask us to do what we are not capable of doing. Even when He says “be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect”, He will give us the grace to fulfill His command.

Ezek. 18:30-31 Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each one according to his ways, says the Lord GOD. Turn and be converted from all your crimes, that they may be no cause of guilt for you. Cast away from you all the crimes you have committed, and make for yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. Why should you die, O house of Israel?

Ezek. 33:11 Answer them: As I live, says the Lord GOD, I swear I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked man, but rather in the wicked man’s conversion, that he may live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! Why should you die, O house of Israel?

What am I missing here? If they can’t turn to God, these people were already predestined to hell. Wouldn’t that make God’s pleading meaningless?

Peace,

Ryan

You have to take into account that these passages were written to supposed believers. The Jews were the possessors of the Law and the Covenants.

 

[guanophore]

** For Catholic Christians -

We are saved by GRACE ALONE.

We are JUSTIFIED THROUGH OUR GOOD WORKS.**

This is not an effective use of language for Apologetics with Protestants, who have been taught a different meaning for justification. Using the language this way will only cause more confusion.

 

[guanophore]

Without God’s work of regeneration, the “free” will of depraved sinners can only accomplish damnation for themselves. Jesus said, “you must be born again.” Salvation is accomplished by the good works of God, not the saved individual.

That is just it, Nick. Jesus did not teach that we are “depraved sinners”. He taught that we are made in the image and likeness of God. Yes, our will is wounded by original sin, but it does not erase the image in which we are made. It makes us “bent” to steal a concept from C.S. Lewis. It is as if, instead of having a quality mirror that adequately reflects God’s image as He intended, ours is like some carnival mirror that makes the image bent and distorted. Still an image, just not a pure one.

Furthermore, humankind does not “accomplish damnation for themselves”. We are born under the yoke of slavery to sin. We are released from that yoke in Baptism.

The grace of God works in and through mankind to accomplish salvation. This is sunergesis, or working together.

Phil 2:13
13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

God does not work in us against our will, but when we choose to cooperate with His grace, we come to both will and to do what pleases Him.

Your interpretation ultimately makes salvation a matter of human merit rather than free grace. If God “does His part” to save John Doe, but John Doe fails to do his part, then what?

No, it is not either or. It is human cooperation with grace. It is both. If God sheds out HIs grace, and John Doe chooses not to respond, then God will allow John Doe to live without Him, in this life, and in the life to come.

Try this example. John the Baptist came preparing the way of the Lord. He preached and Baptized. Not all who heard him were baptized by him. Some of these were the Pharisees and lawyers:

Luke 7:29-30
30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves,

God called all men to repentance, but some refused to answer the call. If they had no free will, how could they reject the purpose of God for themselves? If God did not intend for them to be saved, then what other purpose was there?

 

[guanophore]

And if you use your free will to do good or to choose what is good, while John Doe uses his free will to reject God’s grace, you are saved ultimately by your own goodness, and John Doe is damned by his lack of goodness. How is this any different from moral elitism?

It is not, but it is an erroneous formulation. A person that uses his free will to embrace and accept the grace of God still cannot save themselves. All such a one can do is recognize one’s ability not to save self (revealed only by God’s grace) and to throw oneself upon the mercy of God. However you look at it, salvation is only by grace, through faith. lest any man should boast.

How does throwing oneself on the mercy of God equal “ultimately saved by your own goodness”???

Free will is not morally good or evil. It is a faculty of humankind that can be applied either direction. Faith has to be placed IN something. Oneself, the world, the flesh, the devil or the mercy of God, the individual decides.

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes, I agree. The non-Apostolic Teaching of total depravity is inconsistent with scripture and the Teaching of Jesus. God does not ask us to do what we are not capable of doing. Even when He says “be perfect, as your heavenly father is perfect”, He will give us the grace to fulfill His command.

Thank you for responding guanophore!

You have to take into account that these passages were written to supposed believers. The Jews were the possessors of the Law and the Covenants.

So do subscribers to total depravity apply this condition/state to the Jews?

Peace,

Ryan

 

[mgrfin]

And if you use your free will to do good or to choose what is good, while John Doe uses his free will to reject God’s grace, you are saved ultimately by your own goodness, and John Doe is damned by his lack of goodness. How is this any different from moral elitism?

Wrong. You are equating ‘goodness’ with free will.

We are not saved by our own goodness, rather we are saved by God’s goodness.

We cooperate with God’s grace to us; John Doe uses his free will to reject God’s grace.

The ‘moral elitism’ you call God’s Goodness.

peace

 

[mikeledes]

What I really want to know is where in the Bible does it states that “regeneration” must precede faith? There is not a single verse in the Bible that states this? Yes, God must intervene, He must take the initaitive. But where in the Bible is this divine initiative equated with regeneration?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

Wrong. You are equating ‘goodness’ with free will.

We are not saved by our own goodness, rather we are saved by God’s goodness.

We cooperate with God’s grace to us; John Doe uses his free will to reject God’s grace.

The ‘moral elitism’ you call God’s Goodness.

peace

Free will can be used for good or evil, right? So your task is to show us that our free will BEFORE REGENERATION is just as free to choose what is GOOD as it is to choose EVIL. The bible tells us that in our fallen unregenerate state, men loved darkness instead of light. We must be born again.

John 3:18-21
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

[Philthy]

What I really want to know is where in the Bible does it states that “regeneration” must precede faith? There is not a single verse in the Bible that states this? Yes, God must intervene, He must take the initaitive. But where in the Bible is this divine initiative equated with regeneration?

God Bless,
Michael

Hi Mike -

*Maybe *some interpret John 6:44 to imply this - I would tend to think just the opposite. That we are drawn to God by his initiative but not necessarily regenerated by that drawing. Regeneration would seem to happen later by grace through faith.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Didn’t Jesus say somewhere in the scriptures “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me?”

If that is true then it surely shows the Drawing of Jesus and since we know that All men do not come to Jesus it also shows that Jesus’ drawing grace does not result in all men being converted

 

[mikeledes]

Free will can be used for good or evil, right? So your task is to show us that our free will BEFORE REGENERATION is just as free to choose what is GOOD as it is to choose EVIL. The bible tells us that in our fallen unregenerate state, men loved darkness instead of light. We must be born again.

I know that our wills cannot chose God without prevenient grace (i.e. drawing). What I don’t see in Scripture is “drawing” being equated to “born again.” We are drawn by God to be born again.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Hi Mike -

*Maybe *some interpret John 6:44 to imply this - I would tend to think just the opposite. That we are drawn to God by his initiative but not necessarily regenerated by that drawing. Regeneration would seem to happen later by grace through faith.

I completely agree with you. I don’t see any scriptural basis for equating drawing with being born again. Regeneration is the product of an efficacious drawing.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Without God’s work of regeneration, the “free” will of depraved sinners can only accomplish damnation for themselves. Jesus said, “you must be born again.” Salvation is accomplished by the good works of God, not the saved individual.

Catholics do not understand predestination to mean mere foreknowledge of our choices. Moreover, man cannot chose God apart from God’s inititative.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

I completely agree with you. I don’t see any scriptural basis for equating drawing with being born again. Regeneration is the product of an efficacious drawing.

God Bless,
Michael

Who makes this drawing efficacious, the sinner who is drawn, or the Savior who is drawing the sinner to Himself?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Catholics do not understand predestination to mean mere foreknowledge of our choices. Moreover, man cannot chose God apart from God’s inititative.

God Bless,
Michael

Do any of God’s initiatives ever fail?