Catholics are not saved by Works

[Nick_Jones]

Because without God and His offer of salvation, their ‘goodness’ is immaterial.

True, there has to BE salvation for anyone to EARN their salvation.

And please note I said nothing of a person’s goodness, but their willful cooperation with God… in other words their OBEDIENCE.

If you use your willful cooperation to obey the speed limit and I use my willful lack of cooperation to disobey the speed limit, you have done what is good and right, while I have done what is bad and wrong. In the same way, if you use your willful cooperation to accept God’s offer of salvation and I use my willful lack of cooperation to reject God’s offer of salvation, you have done what is good and right, while I have done what is bad and wrong.

 

[Shiann]

True, there has to BE salvation for anyone to EARN their salvation.

If you use your willful cooperation to obey the speed limit and I use my willful lack of cooperation to disobey the speed limit, you have done what is good and right, while I have done what is bad and wrong. In the same way, if you use your willful cooperation to accept God’s offer of salvation and I use my willful lack of cooperation to reject God’s offer of salvation, you have done what is good and right, while I have done what is bad and wrong.

But it’s not a law from God it’s a gift.

If someone offers you something, and all you have to do is reach out and take it of your own free will, there is no ‘good’ or ‘bad’ in it.

 

[mikeledes]

If you use your willful cooperation to obey the speed limit and I use my willful lack of cooperation to disobey the speed limit, you have done what is good and right, while I have done what is bad and wrong. In the same way, if you use your willful cooperation to accept God’s offer of salvation and I use my willful lack of cooperation to reject God’s offer of salvation, you have done what is good and right, while I have done what is bad and wrong.

Hi Nick. This is true. However, the fact that one person accepts God’s offer of salvation and another one does not is not because one person was better than the other. In Arminianism, predestination is pure foreknowledge. God forsees what man’s responses to His grace and He predestines those He foresaw would chose Him. This is not the Catholic view. Anyone who is saved is ultimately saved* not *because of His own goodness, but because of the goodness and mercy of God. That’s why Catholicism teaches that complete predestination (grace to glory) is prior to foreseen merits, that the gift of final perseverance (i.e. perseverance to the end) cannot be merited, and that there is an unequal distribution of efficacious grace.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

But it’s not a law from God it’s a gift.

If someone offers you something, and all you have to do is reach out and take it of your own free will, there is no ‘good’ or ‘bad’ in it.

As it pertains to our own goodness or lack of goodness, it doesn’t matter that salvation is a gift rather than a law. What matters is the goodness or lack of goodness inherent in the object(s) of our desires. Does a good person desire bad things? Does an evil person desire what is good?

 

[Nick_Jones]

Hi Nick. This is true. However, the fact that one person accepts God’s offer of salvation and another one does not is not because one person was better than the other. In Arminianism, predestination is pure foreknowledge. God forsees what man’s responses to His grace and He predestines those He foresaw would chose Him. This is not the Catholic view. Anyone who is saved is ultimately saved* not *because of His own goodness, but because of the goodness and mercy of God. That’s why Catholicism teaches that complete predestination (grace to glory) is prior to foreseen merits, that the gift of final perseverance (i.e. perseverance to the end) cannot be merited, and that there is an unequal distribution of efficacious grace.

God Bless,
Michael

The most consistent theme of RC’s in discussions like this one, is that God’s grace is sufficient to bring ALL mankind to salvation. Most RC’s ultimately attribute salvation to the “free” will of man. When they are asked what is the difference between two people, one who has accepted God’s offer of salvation, while the other one rejects it, they generally say, “free will.”

 

[mikeledes]

The most consistent theme of RC’s in discussions like this one, is that God’s grace is sufficient to bring ALL mankind to salvation. Most RC’s ultimately attribute salvation to the “free” will of man. When they are asked what is the difference between two people, one who has accepted God’s offer of salvation, while the other one rejects it, they generally say, “free will.”

Because they are speaking from a temporal perspective. Salvation can be seen from two persepectives, from the *eternal *perspective (i.e. the eternal decrees of God regarding predestination, etc.) and from a temporal (i.e. the execution of these eternal decrees in time). Therefore, those who freely cooperate with His grace do so because God has ensured their free cooperation, while those who reject His offer is because God has allowed them to do so.

This brings to mind the Fall. Why did Adam sin? Adam did not have a “sin nature”, had an intimate relationship with God, and was specifically commanded by God not to eat of the tree. And yet he sinned? Why? Did God cause Him to sin? But God is not the source or cause of sin because that would be a violation of His own righteousness. To whom do you attribute Adam’s sin?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Since we’ve mentioned regeneration so much in this thread, I think it’s important to know what actually happens when a person is regenerated. One of the classic Bible verses used by both Catholics and Calvinists when discussing regeneration is the one in Ezekiel 36. Calvinist theologian Wayne Grudem states the following:

This sovereign work of God in regeneration was also predicted in the prophesy of Ezekiel. Through him God promised a time in the future when he would give new spiritual to his people:

**A *new heart *I will give you, and a *new spirit *I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. (Ezek 36:26-27) **

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/regeneration_grudem.html

By emphasizing “new heart” and “new spirit” Grudem and most Calvinists believe this is the essence of regeneration. However, what I find interesting is that when most Calvinists quote this passage, they tend to leave out verse 25. Let’s read v. 26-27 within its context:

Ezekiel 36:25-27 (NKJV)

25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

They tend to leave out the part in which God also says that regeneration includes the forgiveness/washing away of sins (v.25). That forgiveness of sins is inextricably linked to regeneration can also be found in another passage often used by Calvinists, and cited by Grudem…

Colossians 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

So based on the whole passage in Ezekiel, we know that regeneration consists of three essential elements:

1. Forgiveness/ washing away of sins (v.25).
2. The inner sanctification/ renewal of the person (v.26).
3. The gift/indwelling of the Holy Spirit (v.27).

So now let’s take a look at the coversion of Paul. Paul had a very dramatic conversion experience in which the Lord appeared and spoke to him and in which he was blinded. (Acts 9:1-9). Most Calvinists will probably say that at this moment, Paul was regenerated by God. But when we read further, we find that this cannot be so. Jesus directed Paul to go to Ananias. Why?

Acts 9:17-18

17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”

So Jesus directed Paul to go to Ananias for two things:

1. In order to be** healed of his blindness **
2. To filled with the Holy Spirit.

But, according to Ezekiel and Calvinist theology, a person is filled with the Holy Spirit at regeneration? So how can Paul be regnerated and not filled with the Holy Spirit. The fact that he had to go to Ananias in order to be filled with the Holy Spirit means that between his “Damascus” experience and his encounter with Ananias, Paul had not been regenerated. In other words, he was in the same state as Cornelius was between his vision of the angel and his encounter with Peter. Now what does Ananias tell Paul to do?

Acts 22:13-16

**13 came to me; and he stood and said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that same hour I looked up at him. 14 Then he said, ‘The God of our fathers has chosen you that you should know His will, and see the Just One, and hear the voice of His mouth. 15 For you will be His witness to all men of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ **

So we see that Ananias accomplished the** two things **the Lord Jesus told him to do: to heal Paul’s blindness (v. 13) and to fill him with the Holy Spirit (v. 16). Verse 16 clearly indicates that between Paul’s Damascus experience and his encounter with Ananias, his sins had not been washed away, which is another indication that he had not been regenerated, since Ezekiel clearly links the washing of sins with regeneration.

To be continued…

God bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Going back to Ezekiel 36:26, Calvinists often point to the “new heart and new spirit” as the essence of regeneration and then say that this must occur prior to repentance and faith. And yet we read in Ezekiel 18:30-31:

30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel?

The NASB translates v. 31 as follows:

31"Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

So we see that the same phrase in Ezekiel 36:26 is used in Ezekiel 18:31. So if regeneration never involves the human will, how come God links it here with repentance and states “make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit?”

As I stated earlier, man cannot come to God apart from His grace, but this special grace is not regeneration, as demonstrated by the examples of Cornelius and Paul. This grace precedes regeneration and is often referred to by Catholic theologians as prevenient grace or antecedent grace.

To be continued…

God bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

As it pertains to our own goodness or lack of goodness, it doesn’t matter that salvation is a gift rather than a law. What matters is the goodness or lack of goodness inherent in the object(s) of our desires. Does a good person desire bad things? Does an evil person desire what is good?

Humans contain in themselves both desires. We are made in the image and likeness of God, and have an intrinsic desire to please God, for this reason we are made.

but we are fallen, and have concupiscense, (tendency toward sin) and are not able to please God apart from His grace. this is the effect of the fall.

The example you gave earlier is not applied correctly. A person can choose to apply his will toward good, or toward evil, but the will itself is morally neutral. What you ahve said here is more correct, that the good and the evil lies in the nature of the application our desire, and it’s goal.

 

[guanophore]

The most consistent theme of RC’s in discussions like this one, is that God’s grace is sufficient to bring ALL mankind to salvation. Most RC’s ultimately attribute salvation to the “free” will of man. When they are asked what is the difference between two people, one who has accepted God’s offer of salvation, while the other one rejects it, they generally say, “free will.”

And you do not believe that Man has free will, because that subtracts from God’s sovereignty? Why did God allow Israel to have a King, when it was against His will?

 

[mikeledes]

The more I read about Calvinism, the more I realize that “effectual calling,” “drawing”, and “regeneration” are practically identical. So the fact that Cornelius feared and sought God prior to his effectual calling/regeneration raises another question. To what extent is man totally depraved? The logic of Calvinism is that man is totally depraved and thus God has to take radical action in order for a person to come to faith. The Westminster Confession states that God must enlighten the mind, renew the will, and change the heart of stone into a heart of flesh in order for a person to respond in faith.

However, if the human will can only respond to God if man is regenerated, then how is it that an unregenerated Cornelius feared and sought God and pleased Him with his prayers and almsgiving? How can someone who does not have a “new heart and spirit” please God?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jailbelle]

In the Scriptures Jesus himself said become perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect. Does this not mean that God is expecting us to use our free will to co-operate with him in doing our part to try each day to become better and love and help others? Of course we can’t do much without the help of the Lord.
We were told to never sit around and do nothing to better ourselves. Remember, These are the ones that God said he will vomit out of his system!! God can work on those who are against Him. God loves those who are for Him and they show it by what they do for God. But, those who do nothing or remain neutral ,or don’t care are the ones who need our prayers. God demands that we take a stand ! We have to help those who have gone astray or who do not know any better.

 

[Nick_Jones]

This brings to mind the Fall. Why did Adam sin?

I don’t know why Adam sinned. Do you know?

Adam did not have a “sin nature”, had an intimate relationship with God, and was specifically commanded by God not to eat of the tree. And yet he sinned? Why?

This is a good question!

Did God cause Him to sin? But God is not the source or cause of sin because that would be a violation of His own righteousness. To whom do you attribute Adam’s sin?

God Bless,
Michael

No, God didn’t cause Adam to sin. Adam truly had a free will before he ate the fruit. I attribute Adam’s sin to Adam.

 

[Nick_Jones]

The more I read about Calvinism, the more I realize that “effectual calling,” “drawing”, and “regeneration” are practically identical. So the fact that Cornelius feared and sought God prior to his effectual calling/regeneration raises another question. To what extent is man totally depraved? The logic of Calvinism is that man is totally depraved and thus God has to take radical action in order for a person to come to faith. The Westminster Confession states that God must enlighten the mind, renew the will, and change the heart of stone into a heart of flesh in order for a person to respond in faith.

However, if the human will can only respond to God if man is regenerated, then how is it that an unregenerated Cornelius feared and sought God and pleased Him with his prayers and almsgiving? How can someone who does not have a “new heart and spirit” please God?

God Bless,
Michael

Why do you claim that Cornelius was not regenerated yet he feared and sought God and pleased Him with his prayers and almsgiving?

 

[mikeledes]

Why do you claim that Cornelius was not regenerated yet he feared and sought God and pleased Him with his prayers and almsgiving?

Hi Nick! Because according to most Calvinists, Cornelius was regenerated in Acts 10:44. Wayne Grudem argues:

**As the gospel comes to us, God speaks through it to summon us to himself (effective calling) and to give us new spiritual life (regeneration) so that we are enabled to respond in faith. Effective calling is thus God the Father speaking powerfully to us, and regeneration is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit working powerfully in us, to make us alive. These two things must have happened simultaneously as Peter was preaching the gospel to the household of Cornelius, for while he was still preaching "the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word’ (Acts 10:44). **

You also identified regeneration with Baptism with the Spirit and we read in Acts 11:15-16 Peter say the following regarding Cornelius and his household:

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Cornelius was baptized with the Spirit in Acts 10:44, after his vision of the angel and during his encounter with Peter.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I don’t know why Adam sinned. Do you know?

Because he wanted to be God and chose to disobey God’s command.

This is a good question!

Thanks. Any thoughts?

No, God didn’t cause Adam to sin. Adam truly had a free will before he ate the fruit. I attribute Adam’s sin to Adam.

In order for their to be election or reprobation, there has to be a Fall. There are Calvinists who say that God decreed the fall, though they are unable to explain how He did this without causing Adam to sin.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Nick_Jones]

Because he wanted to be God and chose to disobey God’s command.

I think you are right. Pride came before the act of disobedience (eating the fruit). But we are still left to wonder why Adam, who had everything, became prideful…wanting what rightfully belonged to God, the knowledge of good and evil.

Thanks. Any thoughts?

No, since there is no good reason to disobey God, this question has no satisfactory answer. ISTM that if a satisfying answer could be found to the question (why did Adam sin), it would excuse his sin…which, of course, is impossible.

In order for their to be election or reprobation, there has to be a Fall. There are Calvinists who say that God decreed the fall, though they are unable to explain how He did this without causing Adam to sin.

God Bless,
Michael

I agree. God decreed that mankind should fall, AND that the fall should be due to the free will choice of man.

 

[mikeledes]

Why do you claim that Cornelius was not regenerated yet he feared and sought God and pleased Him with his prayers and almsgiving?

I also claim this to demonstrate that “drawing” is not the same thing as regeneration, which most Calvinists that I know of say that they are. Therefore, if unregenerated Cornelius continuosly sought God in prayer and God positively responded to his prayers and almsgiving, this poses a serious challenge to Calvinist theology.

The Westminster Confession - a key Calvinist statement of faith states:

VII. Works done by unregenerate men, although for the matter of them they may be things which God commands; and of good use both to themselves and others:yet, because they proceed not from an heart purified by faith;nor are done in a right manner, according to the Word;nor to a right end, the glory of God, they are therefore sinful and cannot please God, or make a man meet to receive grace from God:and yet, their neglect of them is more sinful and displeasing unto God. (XVI, 25).

And when does one go from unregenerate to regenerate according to the Westminster Confession? :

I. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call,by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ:yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace. (X, 1-2).

In other words, when the word is preached to one of the elect, at that moment the Holy Spirit works to bring about a positive response to the Gospel message by regenerating the person. As an example of this (i.e. Word and Spirit), Calvinists often cite the example of Cornelius in Acts 10:44. And yet they fail to explain how Cornelius could fear and seek God and please Him with his prayers and almsgiving prior to the effectual call (i.e. Word) and regeneration (i.e Spirit). According to the Westminster Confession, the chief statement of faith of Calvinism, man cannot please God prior to regeneration, prior to having his heart purified by faith. This is why the example of Cornelius poses a serious challenge to Calvinist theology. If Cornelius, while still “dead in his sins” can seek God and please him with his prayers and good works (i.e. almsgiving), then why is regeneration - as understood by Calvinism - necessary in order to produce a “voluntary” acceptance of the Gospel? If man can seek God without regeneration (as in the case of Cornelius), without the “renewing the will” and the “new heart and new spirit”, then to what extent is man totally depraved?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know why Adam sinned. Do you know?

He failed to rule over his wife?

 

[Nick_Jones]

And you do not believe that Man has free will, because that subtracts from God’s sovereignty? Why did God allow Israel to have a King, when it was against His will?

No, I don’t believe that the free will of man (before the fall) subtracted from God’s sovereignty.

If God “allows” then ISTM that He “wills” unless it is possible for God to allow things against His own will.